282 réponses à ce sujet

[MECavScout01]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't want MEHEM. I like it the way it is now. Ugly and obtuse. But mostly stupidly obtuse.

SuperHack is definitely showing how cool he is. Big Explosions!

[Cobretti ftw]

destroy is the genocide ending.

Modifié par Cobretti ftw, 10 mars 2013 - 05:53 .

[Taboo]

I will give him credit though. He accomplished an incoherent mess with less explosions than Michael Bay though.

Baysplosions.

[Legion of 1337]

MECavScout01 wrote...

@ Legion of 1337.

I don't care what BW's story is. It's not my story.

They used to tell me that I was the writer, the master of my own story. Then they take that away to showcase their crap.

It's their crap, not mine. My Shepard' story didn't end the way BW wanted it too. Casey and SuperMac don't like it, they can mess with their own ending.

In my ending, the final theme isn't even about organics vs synthetics. It's about selflessness vs selfishness, friendship, and galactic unity.

The Reapers, selfishly believing in their own perfection believe the universe must be cleansed of all beings who do not fit their perfect vision of order.

Shepard and his crew fight selflessly against that, to not have to have fear and destruction imposed on them and the galaxy.

And Shepard wins. He destroys the Reapers with their own 'tool' of perfection, and he returns and reunites with Miranda, his crew, and his surviving team.

And with that, I made a far better story than Casey or SuperMac is willing to tell.

But the thing is, it IS their story because they wrote it, they just made it more fluid and variable than a book would be.

I guess I hate the idea of changing the ending to fit what I want because I respect creative works for what they are, and I judge them and enjoy them on the basis of what they were created as. Feedback/criticism is fine, but claiming it as "yours" is basically telling whoever created it "It's not about what you wanted, it's about what we wanted". If I'm a writer, I'd be a bit peeved if everyone took whatever I wrote and chopped it up and made it a different story and pretended that was what it "should" have been because they didn't like what I came up with. Don't like it? Then don't like it. But the writer dictates was is and is not in the story because it is his creation.

[MECavScout01]

Cobretti ftw wrote...

destroy is the genocide ending.

Better than becoming a fascist, or... whatever synthesis does.

The synthetics of now die, so that everyone lives later without Reapers hanging around to kill you.

[3DandBeyond]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Wait.....why is this even a problem? It's a mod. It is free and optional. You do not have to ever watch or play it.

So, I ask again, why is it a problem?

Yeah, it's really ridiculous and I'm sorry but especially that "you don't respect the intent of the creators" if you mod it argument.  Artistic integrity has been squashed just about every way possible and Bioware has never said "don't mod the SP game or we'll feel bad".

I absolutely believe that if modding it causes people to buy it, then Bioware would say, "go for it". 

A lot of games get modded not because people hate what the creators have done with the games but just because they have ideas of what they'd like that is different.  In fact, I think it was Mac Walters who said that other people have different ideas for the story and ending, but that's just something Bioware could not write.  He didn't say that other people were not allowed to write their own and have it be valid for them.

It has nothing to do with respect of lack thereof.  In fact, some people that mod games make changes that are not even ones that they want-they do it because others do and in their spare time with the only reward being that they make other people happy.  And that's bad?  Is today opposite day?

[SNascimento]

You do need a lot of denial to use this mod... but I guess people want a happy ending that much.

[MECavScout01]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

But the thing is, it IS their story because they wrote it, they just made it more fluid and variable than a book would be.

I guess I hate the idea of changing the ending to fit what I want because I respect creative works for what they are, and I judge them and enjoy them on the basis of what they were created as. Feedback/criticism is fine, but claiming it as "yours" is basically telling whoever created it "It's not about what you wanted, it's about what we wanted". If I'm a writer, I'd be a bit peeved if everyone took whatever I wrote and chopped it up and made it a different story and pretended that was what it "should" have been because they didn't like what I came up with. Don't like it? Then don't like it. But the writer dictates was is and is not in the story because it is his creation.

And your argument is destroyed by BW saying that there is no canon.

And they're hypocrites because they said in the past that their job was that of the intermediary. I make the story, they said. They were simply the provider of the tools.

And for the most part I could. Then they wrestled control from my hands at the last moments of the trilogy to shoe-horn in sadness and forced sacrifice into a story that didn't need it.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Cobretti ftw wrote...

destroy is the genocide ending.

If thats the case then I'd love to do some more genocide.

[Chashan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Cobretti ftw wrote...

destroy is the genocide ending.

If thats the case then I'd love to do some more genocide.

Of this sort:

www.youtube.com/watch?

[Legion of 1337]

MECavScout01 wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

But the thing is, it IS their story because they wrote it, they just made it more fluid and variable than a book would be.

I guess I hate the idea of changing the ending to fit what I want because I respect creative works for what they are, and I judge them and enjoy them on the basis of what they were created as. Feedback/criticism is fine, but claiming it as "yours" is basically telling whoever created it "It's not about what you wanted, it's about what we wanted". If I'm a writer, I'd be a bit peeved if everyone took whatever I wrote and chopped it up and made it a different story and pretended that was what it "should" have been because they didn't like what I came up with. Don't like it? Then don't like it. But the writer dictates was is and is not in the story because it is his creation.

And your argument is destroyed by BW saying that there is no canon.

And they're hypocrites because they said in the past that their job was that of the intermediary. I make the story, they said. They were simply the provider of the tools.

And for the most part I could. Then they wrestled control from my hands at the last moments of the trilogy to shoe-horn in sadness and forced sacrifice into a story that didn't need it.

There's no "canon" in as much as there's no officially canon choices or decisions because it's up to the player. But within the game's narrative itself, your choices are still directed by the options provided in game, as well as the overall narrative thread that you cannot change. That narrative, those options for variation the player can choose, those are all part of the story they wrote - all the content is "canon" in that it is officially part of the story, but there are no canon choices because what to choose is all up to each player.

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

But the thing is, it IS their story because they wrote it, they just made it more fluid and variable than a book would be.

I guess I hate the idea of changing the ending to fit what I want because I respect creative works for what they are, and I judge them and enjoy them on the basis of what they were created as. Feedback/criticism is fine, but claiming it as "yours" is basically telling whoever created it "It's not about what you wanted, it's about what we wanted". If I'm a writer, I'd be a bit peeved if everyone took whatever I wrote and chopped it up and made it a different story and pretended that was what it "should" have been because they didn't like what I came up with. Don't like it? Then don't like it. But the writer dictates was is and is not in the story because it is his creation.

If you were an author (a published writer), you might well not be so concerned if it sold books.  But it's for the creator to complain and really not for others who have no idea how that creator of that individual work feels.

Games have been modded for as long as they've existed and so now you have a problem.  In fact, a lot of games used to include modding tools-some still do because devs wanted their fans to add onto and share things that worked for them.  It was a tool used to gain fans.  It was one of the initial draws to computer gaming.

And modding a game doesn't say the story is yours at all-it is like fan fiction and there have been alternate endings and alternatives to other story's plots.  For instance, a screen writer or novelist writes a book-the book becomes a movie, that is nothing like the book.  Once the movie is done the producers of the movie might release a Director's (not a writer's) Cut.  And again, fans of books and movies have also caused endings or parts of the material to be changed.  This is not that different.  Artists have taken photographers' photos and chopped them up to make collages, saying that for them the photos work better in that form.  And so on. 

And the artistic integrity comments are very funny.  Consider that Bioware took a whole lot of other IPs and borrowed heavily from them (chopped them up) to create large parts of ME in the first place.  The flotilla - Battlestar Gallactica.  The Reapers - Lovecraft.  The endings - Deus ex, Babylon 5, and more.  There are a lot of examples of this in the game. 

The biggest problem comes when someone tries to sell a work and claims it's their own.  No one has done that here.

[MECavScout01]

Legion of 1337 wrote...
There's no "canon" in as much as there's no officially canon choices or decisions because it's up to the player. But within the game's narrative itself, your choices are still directed by the options provided in game, as well as the overall narrative thread that you cannot change. That narrative, those options for variation the player can choose, those are all part of the story they wrote - all the content is "canon" in that it is officially part of the story, but there are no canon choices because what to choose is all up to each player.

And yet, the very existence of MEHEM and my own choices says otherwise. I don't choose anything that BW wants me to. I don't choose anything they've written.

I choose my own ending, that I wrote myself, with themes that fit the story, and a narrative that is line with the previously established narrative.

So you can take that argument, and throw it away. I would tell Casey and SuperMac to their faces that their canon is not my canon. They didn't, and don't have to tell the story I want them to tell. And I don't have to follow or listen to the story that they want to tell me. That's not the story I made up to that point.

You're telling me I have to sit back and listen to their art. I choose to make my own art instead. My own variation on their idea's. I can change for my story whatever I want to change.

Due to the crap we got in ME3, I've changed a lot.

Is that not how idea's grow? Is that not how innovation grows?

Also, for everyone's reading pleasure: http://awtr.wikidot....s-is-not-a-pipe

Modifié par MECavScout01, 10 mars 2013 - 06:14 .

[Legion of 1337]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

But the thing is, it IS their story because they wrote it, they just made it more fluid and variable than a book would be.

I guess I hate the idea of changing the ending to fit what I want because I respect creative works for what they are, and I judge them and enjoy them on the basis of what they were created as. Feedback/criticism is fine, but claiming it as "yours" is basically telling whoever created it "It's not about what you wanted, it's about what we wanted". If I'm a writer, I'd be a bit peeved if everyone took whatever I wrote and chopped it up and made it a different story and pretended that was what it "should" have been because they didn't like what I came up with. Don't like it? Then don't like it. But the writer dictates was is and is not in the story because it is his creation.

If you were an author (a published writer), you might well not be so concerned if it sold books.  But it's for the creator to complain and really not for others who have no idea how that creator of that individual work feels.

Games have been modded for as long as they've existed and so now you have a problem.  In fact, a lot of games used to include modding tools-some still do because devs wanted their fans to add onto and share things that worked for them.  It was a tool used to gain fans.  It was one of the initial draws to computer gaming.

And modding a game doesn't say the story is yours at all-it is like fan fiction and there have been alternate endings and alternatives to other story's plots.  For instance, a screen writer or novelist writes a book-the book becomes a movie, that is nothing like the book.  Once the movie is done the producers of the movie might release a Director's (not a writer's) Cut.  And again, fans of books and movies have also caused endings or parts of the material to be changed.  This is not that different.  Artists have taken photographers' photos and chopped them up to make collages, saying that for them the photos work better in that form.  And so on. 

And the artistic integrity comments are very funny.  Consider that Bioware took a whole lot of other IPs and borrowed heavily from them (chopped them up) to create large parts of ME in the first place.  The flotilla - Battlestar Gallactica.  The Reapers - Lovecraft.  The endings - Deus ex, Babylon 5, and more.  There are a lot of examples of this in the game. 

The biggest problem comes when someone tries to sell a work and claims it's their own.  No one has done that here.

I just find it sad that people seem to need to basically insert their own fanfic ending into a piece of fiction to not hate it. Why can't everyone take my adivce and just laugh at it for being stupid?

People love this so much that in threads where they ask "Which is your favourite ending?", people say "MEHEM" and I have to remind them "That's not the ending."

[3DandBeyond]

SNascimento wrote...

You do need a lot of denial to use this mod... but I guess people want a happy ending that much.

First off, people wanted a rational, happier ending (in part).  They really more often wanted a really fitting ending and one that matched the rest of the story.  Happy isn't the real issue.  Happier and a win and consequences as a real possibility along with all the rest (loss, sacrifice, real bittersweet) that was the wish, but above all that it make sense and fit with the story.  It also would have helped if large parts of it weren't ripped from other games and movies and tv shows and not changed essentially to fit ME.  The freaking endings that we got don't have anything to do with the game/story that came before.  MEHEM could only do so much-it could not fix the game, but it could help many to just feel better about the thing and it could remove the big parts that so offended people.  But, it could never make the choices or much of what is wrong work-so it had to remove them completely.

What denial do you have to be in to use it? 

[chemiclord]

3DandBeyond wrote...

If you were an author (a published writer), you might well not be so concerned if it sold books.  But it's for the creator to complain and really not for others who have no idea how that creator of that individual work feels.

Games have been modded for as long as they've existed and so now you have a problem.  In fact, a lot of games used to include modding tools-some still do because devs wanted their fans to add onto and share things that worked for them.  It was a tool used to gain fans.  It was one of the initial draws to computer gaming.

And modding a game doesn't say the story is yours at all-it is like fan fiction and there have been alternate endings and alternatives to other story's plots.  For instance, a screen writer or novelist writes a book-the book becomes a movie, that is nothing like the book.  Once the movie is done the producers of the movie might release a Director's (not a writer's) Cut.  And again, fans of books and movies have also caused endings or parts of the material to be changed.  This is not that different.  Artists have taken photographers' photos and chopped them up to make collages, saying that for them the photos work better in that form.  And so on. 

And the artistic integrity comments are very funny.  Consider that Bioware took a whole lot of other IPs and borrowed heavily from them (chopped them up) to create large parts of ME in the first place.  The flotilla - Battlestar Gallactica.  The Reapers - Lovecraft.  The endings - Deus ex, Babylon 5, and more.  There are a lot of examples of this in the game. 

The biggest problem comes when someone tries to sell a work and claims it's their own.  No one has done that here.

Well, from THIS particular author's opinion... yeah, I find it rather insulting and a slap to the face (funny how fans tend to have no problem with it when they're on the giving end).

Now with that said, that's just my opinion on the matter, because yeah... fans are pretty much going to do what they want, especially if they don't like what you provided.  As much as I really don't like it... it's something I have to deal with.

I probably SHOULD clarify from earlier that I don't have any problems with speculative or "additional" fanfiction, stuff that adds to the stories I write.  Fanfiction that outright CHANGES my content?  Yeah... that's not cool to me.

Modifié par chemiclord, 10 mars 2013 - 06:23 .

[Legion of 1337]

MECavScout01 wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...
There's no "canon" in as much as there's no officially canon choices or decisions because it's up to the player. But within the game's narrative itself, your choices are still directed by the options provided in game, as well as the overall narrative thread that you cannot change. That narrative, those options for variation the player can choose, those are all part of the story they wrote - all the content is "canon" in that it is officially part of the story, but there are no canon choices because what to choose is all up to each player.

And yet, the very existence of MEHEM and my own choices says otherwise. I don't choose anything that BW wants me to. I don't choose anything they've written.

I choose my own ending, that I wrote myself, with themes that fit the story, and a narrative that is line with the previously established narrative.

So you can take that argument, and throw it away. I would tell Casey and SuperMac to their faces that their canon is not my canon. They didn't, and don't have to tell the story I want them to tell. And I don't have to follow or listen to the story that they want to tell me. That's not the story I made up to that point.

You're telling me I have to sit back and listen to their art. I choose to make my own art instead. My own variation on their idea's. I can change for my story whatever I want to change.

Due to the crap we got in ME3, I've changed a lot.

Is that not how idea's grow? Is that not how innovation grows?

Also, for everyone's reading pleasure: http://awtr.wikidot....s-is-not-a-pipe

The existence of MEHEM just says people don't like the ending and want a different one. It's a mod, it was not made by the creators of the game, therefore it's not the ending. You can create whatever sort of story you want for yourself, but if Bioware didn't make it, it's not technically part of Mass Effect (as the creators of Mass Effect, I think they're allowed to dictate what is and isn't in their story).

Keep in mind, I don't like the ending either. I just laugh at it and say "Try again".

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I just find it sad that people seem to need to basically insert their own fanfic ending into a piece of fiction to not hate it. Why can't everyone take my adivce and just laugh at it for being stupid?

People love this so much that in threads where they ask "Which is your favourite ending?", people say "MEHEM" and I have to remind them "That's not the ending."

That's your opinion.  Why should people just accept stupid if they can make it better?  In fact, Bioware also wins because people can do this so what then is the complaint?  It isn't your IP.  It is theirs and if it bothered them they would have banned anyone that discussed it.

Why do you feel it necessary to tell people they should not use it?  Why can't you just take my advice and just laugh at it because you think it's stupid and leave people to it?  It hurts you how exactly?

It is sad that people have to use fan fiction or a mod to not hate something they loved but what people did with the MEHEM is they actually did something about it.

Star Wars and Star Trek have huge followings in part because of fan fiction that helped keep the interest going when movies and other things were not available.  It serves a real purpose for fans and creators alike.

[Legion of 1337]

3DandBeyond wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

You do need a lot of denial to use this mod... but I guess people want a happy ending that much.

First off, people wanted a rational, happier ending (in part).  They really more often wanted a really fitting ending and one that matched the rest of the story.  Happy isn't the real issue.  Happier and a win and consequences as a real possibility along with all the rest (loss, sacrifice, real bittersweet) that was the wish, but above all that it make sense and fit with the story.  It also would have helped if large parts of it weren't ripped from other games and movies and tv shows and not changed essentially to fit ME.  The freaking endings that we got don't have anything to do with the game/story that came before.  MEHEM could only do so much-it could not fix the game, but it could help many to just feel better about the thing and it could remove the big parts that so offended people.  But, it could never make the choices or much of what is wrong work-so it had to remove them completely.

What denial do you have to be in to use it? 

I believe he is talking about people who genuinely want to believe this is what the ending should have been. To do that you have to deny the obvious fact that it's not.

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

The existence of MEHEM just says people don't like the ending and want a different one. It's a mod, it was not made by the creators of the game, therefore it's not the ending. You can create whatever sort of story you want for yourself, but if Bioware didn't make it, it's not technically part of Mass Effect (as the creators of Mass Effect, I think they're allowed to dictate what is and isn't in their story).

Keep in mind, I don't like the ending either. I just laugh at it and say "Try again".

Ok this is just silly.  Try again-with what?  This Mass Effect is done-they are not going to "try again".

And Bioware hasn't told the people who made MEHEM to stop-so why should you?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 mars 2013 - 06:26 .

[MECavScout01]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

The existence of MEHEM just says people don't like the ending and want a different one. It's a mod, it was not made by the creators of the game, therefore it's not the ending. You can create whatever sort of story you want for yourself, but if Bioware didn't make it, it's not technically part of Mass Effect (as the creators of Mass Effect, I think they're allowed to dictate what is and isn't in their story).

Keep in mind, I don't like the ending either. I just laugh at it and say "Try again".

No it's not technically part of the Mass Effect Universe. I never disputed that at all.

But MEHEM is an ending to the game. It may not unlock achievements or be the ending BW wants, but the fans will do what we want.

I'm not big on MEHEM myself. I prefer my own story.

But how can I trust BW to run their own universe when they can't even show consistency in it?

I can't, and I won't. Their Mass Effect is not the same as my Mass Effect.

I don't care what they say, I'm done wasting time with their story. I made my own, with my own variations. How is that hard for you to understand? 

[New Display Name]

Well, from THIS particular author's opinion... yeah, I find it rather insulting and a slap to the face (funny how fans tend to have no problem with it when they're on the giving end).

Now with that said, that's just my opinion on the matter, because yeah... fans are pretty much going to do what they want, especially if they don't like what you provided. As much as I really don't like it... it's something I have to deal with.

I probably SHOULD clarify from earlier that I don't have any problems with speculative or "additional" fanfiction, stuff that adds to the stories I write. Fanfiction that outright CHANGES my content? Yeah... that's not cool to me.

You aren't every author.

I mod. I might stop if the writers said they found it offensive, but they have not and the official Bioware word on mods is that they're fine if singleplayer.

[3DandBeyond]

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I believe he is talking about people who genuinely want to believe this is what the ending should have been. To do that you have to deny the obvious fact that it's not.

No you don't.  No one is saying this is the official ending.  People are saying this is the ending they would have liked.  No one is in denial-they know it's fan created but it's their desired ending.  So what?

[Legion of 1337]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion of 1337 wrote...

I just find it sad that people seem to need to basically insert their own fanfic ending into a piece of fiction to not hate it. Why can't everyone take my adivce and just laugh at it for being stupid?

People love this so much that in threads where they ask "Which is your favourite ending?", people say "MEHEM" and I have to remind them "That's not the ending."

That's your opinion.  Why should people just accept stupid if they can make it better?  In fact, Bioware also wins because people can do this so what then is the complaint?  It isn't your IP.  It is theirs and if it bothered them they would have banned anyone that discussed it.

Why do you feel it necessary to tell people they should not use it?  Why can't you just take my advice and just laugh at it because you think it's stupid and leave people to it?  It hurts you how exactly?

It is sad that people have to use fan fiction or a mod to not hate something they loved but what people did with the MEHEM is they actually did something about it.

Star Wars and Star Trek have huge followings in part because of fan fiction that helped keep the interest going when movies and other things were not available.  It serves a real purpose for fans and creators alike.

I'm just trying to make sure we don't fall into the self-indulgant trap that the Star Wars fanboys did where they basically try to deny that the prequels exist or are even part of Star Wars, because they hate them so much they don't want to acknowledge their existence.

Like I said, it's kind of already started with me having to remind people MEHEM is not the ending.