282 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MegaSovereign wrote...

MEHEM is no less of a headcanon than your description of Destroy, OP. Synthetics are dead. EDI's nameplate would not be put up there otherwise.

With that said, I don't like the MEHEM. The recycling of cutscenes and dialogue breaks the immersion for me, and I don't dig the Suicide Mission track being reused just for the sake of it. "Anderson's" memorial also seems out of place as it seems to imply that he was a pivotal character, something I disagree with. Above all, one of the biggest problems of the narrative happens to be how vaguely defined the Crucible is. The MEHEM reinforces the fact that the Crucible is a giant "I win" button, even more so than Bioware's endings. So for me, MEHEM doesn't really fix anything.

EDIT:

Keep in mind that I had a bigger problem with Priority Earth as a whole than I did with the last 10 minutes of the game. IIRC MEHEM  doesn't actually add anything to the segment until Harbinger arrives.

The reuse of the Suicide Mission soundtrack is temporary. I'm in process of writing an original orchestral score to replace it. MrFob sent me the cutscenes. It's not an easy job, but I'm going to do the best I can. It probably will be included with version 0.4, I hope.

Anderson was Shepard's friend and mentor, and he gave Shepard the apartment.  If someone gave you a pad like that, wouldn't you remember them?

[Brovikk Rasputin]

MEHEM is pretty boring in my opinion. A very typical videogame ending. Other than that, it's not like anyone is forcing you to download it. Just try and ignore it.

I feel the original endings provides the player with everything from the super depressing to the triumphant.

[Neizd]

It's not like people are angry about current endings. They are fine, but some people really wanted some happines for their Shepard. My personal Commander Shepard lost too much in my opinion. It would be nice to at least have a choice for a happy ending. BW didn't add it so they basicially said: You don't have a choice, you must loose something.

A lot of people roleplay ME series more than one...some people have 15 different playthroughs, yet, no matter how different they are it all comes down to A, B, C and now D. It turns out they actually didn't need to spend so many hours playing...they could have played one time and just reload.

My personall opinion is, that a happy ending should have been allowed for those dedicated fans, since it wouldn't hurt anybody... Why Bioware didn't add it must be related to ME4 somehow, otherwise their decision is like a decision made by a woman that has her period "no, bacuse of no"

[SiriusXI]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

MEHEM is pretty boring in my opinion. A very typical videogame ending. Other than that, it's not like anyone is forcing you to download it. Just try and ignore it.

I feel the original endings provides the player with everything from the super depressing to the triumphant.

Once again, it does not matter how "boring" it is, what matters is that Starchild is gone. Reapers are still these incomprehensible force that harvest organics for unknown reasons (maybe to procreate).Starchilds stupid circular logic from hell does not reduce the bad guys to puppets and does not make the plots of ME1 and ME2 irrelevant or downright nonsensical.

That's why MEHEM is better than the original endings. Is it still a badly written one? Of course. We have one giant win button (instead of 3). But that is hardly the modder's fault. MEHEM helps keeping the universe story and lore wise in tact, something the original endings xould never do.

And "triumphant" were none of the endings. Some were sad, depressing, some stupid and childish, some wew even scary. But none of them were triumphant and sure as hell none of them were good.


Have been watching the Watchmen yesterday. This movie has a pretty sad ending, too, but a pretty damn well written one.

[Dr_Extrem]

Neizd wrote...

It's not like people are angry about current endings. They are fine, but some people really wanted some happines for their Shepard. My personal Commander Shepard lost too much in my opinion. It would be nice to at least have a choice for a happy ending. BW didn't add it so they basicially said: You don't have a choice, you must loose something.

A lot of people roleplay ME series more than one...some people have 15 different playthroughs, yet, no matter how different they are it all comes down to A, B, C and now D. It turns out they actually didn't need to spend so many hours playing...they could have played one time and just reload.

My personall opinion is, that a happy ending should have been allowed for those dedicated fans, since it wouldn't hurt anybody... Why Bioware didn't add it must be related to ME4 somehow, otherwise their decision is like a decision made by a woman that has her period "no, bacuse of no"

they made the decision i a state, where they wanted to end mass effect as a whole. the original endings intent is pretty clear. "torch and run"

when they wrote the endings, they had no idea, that they would make a new me-game.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 10 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[SiriusXI]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Neizd wrote...

It's not like people are angry about current endings. They are fine, but some people really wanted some happines for their Shepard. My personal Commander Shepard lost too much in my opinion. It would be nice to at least have a choice for a happy ending. BW didn't add it so they basicially said: You don't have a choice, you must loose something.

A lot of people roleplay ME series more than one...some people have 15 different playthroughs, yet, no matter how different they are it all comes down to A, B, C and now D. It turns out they actually didn't need to spend so many hours playing...they could have played one time and just reload.

My personall opinion is, that a happy ending should have been allowed for those dedicated fans, since it wouldn't hurt anybody... Why Bioware didn't add it must be related to ME4 somehow, otherwise their decision is like a decision made by a woman that has her period "no, bacuse of no"

Also my guess. They wanted to abandon the ME Universe and move on, hence the Synthesis ending and hence the 3 different endings that can never work out in a sequal. I would have liked the story to continue, but as of now, I'm ok with them just creating a new game that is not mass effect. If they now start retconing established themes again, it would just make matters worse.




they made the decision i a state, where they wanted to end mass effect as a whole. the original endings intent is pretty clear. "torch and run"

when they wrote the endings, they had no idea, that they would make a new me-game.

[BD Manchild]

It gets rid of the atrocious Catalyst ****, so it's alright in my book. Just because the actual ending was apparently Bioware's vision doesn't mean that vision isn't a pile of utter crap.

[Neizd]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Neizd wrote...

It's not like people are angry about current endings. They are fine, but some people really wanted some happines for their Shepard. My personal Commander Shepard lost too much in my opinion. It would be nice to at least have a choice for a happy ending. BW didn't add it so they basicially said: You don't have a choice, you must loose something.

A lot of people roleplay ME series more than one...some people have 15 different playthroughs, yet, no matter how different they are it all comes down to A, B, C and now D. It turns out they actually didn't need to spend so many hours playing...they could have played one time and just reload.

My personall opinion is, that a happy ending should have been allowed for those dedicated fans, since it wouldn't hurt anybody... Why Bioware didn't add it must be related to ME4 somehow, otherwise their decision is like a decision made by a woman that has her period "no, bacuse of no"

they made the decision i a state, where they wanted to end mass effect as a whole. the original endings intent is pretty clear. "torch and run"

when they wrote the endings, they had no idea, that they would make a new me-game.

Sorry, can't agree since I am a indie game developer myself, and in our team we have everything planned for 5 years ahead (the main outline). Even if there will be changes to our plans, based on fan feedback, the main outline always stays the same.

The same thing will be with ME4, since they must have known that they will be making it before finishing the game. Making an actuall game is not a problem with a good team...it's making the agreements, deciding how many money will be spent etc that is the main problem and those things EA had to have planned at least half a year before the first annoucement of ME4.

Looking at ME3 ending with eyes of story writter, for me at least it looks like they were creating a background for the new game, that's why the EC didn't change the actuall endings and didn't give us the happy ending. It would change the main outline for ME4 if they changed too much.

I believe that what Bioware plans is to create the next game with new pratagonist that for half of the story is indoctrinated, then breaks the indoctrination and near the end saves Shepard that is laying in the rubble near the beam. Then they save the day.

That story otline would give Bioware a very good fresh start:

- You can see Shepard again...and fight alongside him! 
- New players don't need to own ME1, ME2 or ME3. It's a separate game with default Shepard...or he/she can wear helmet or whatever.
- If done right they don't need to add a problematic Save import option...or they can and import only Shepard apperance, who was LI etc. the basic choices.

This would ensure for the separate game to avoid people angry about the ending, would also give a fresh start and we would see our loved characters again. It would also build a great background for the game after ME4 if EA wishes so.

[BD Manchild]

Neizd wrote...

Looking at ME3 ending with eyes of story writter, for me at least it looks like they were creating a background for the new game, that's why the EC didn't change the actuall endings and didn't give us the happy ending. It would change the main outline for ME4 if they changed too much.

I wish I had that amount of optimism, as to me the ending was a clear sign that Bioware had absolutely no idea what they were going to do with the Reapers, so went for the most unsatisfying (to put it mildly) thing imaginable. They really were making it up as they went along; don't kid yourself otherwise.

[Dieb]

A thing I want to state in hindsight to this discussion: I really hate the modern trend of dismissing non-depressive, or yeah, downright happy endings as cheesy, unrealistic, less mature, or less sophisticated. I think it is a shortcoming of many modern writers not to attempt to prove these assumptions wrong, because at least I'm convinced that they fundamentally are.

For example, there is a song by The Bandits called "Another Sad Song" - which is about the attempt of writing a happy song, but settling for a sad one because it is way easier.

[Neizd]

BD Manchild wrote...

Neizd wrote...

Looking at ME3 ending with eyes of story writter, for me at least it looks like they were creating a background for the new game, that's why the EC didn't change the actuall endings and didn't give us the happy ending. It would change the main outline for ME4 if they changed too much.

I wish I had that amount of optimism, as to me the ending was a clear sign that Bioware had absolutely no idea what they were going to do with the Reapers, so went for the most unsatisfying (to put it mildly) thing imaginable. They really were making it up as they went along; don't kid yourself otherwise.

Maybe or maybe not, since for a talented team it's not so hard to think something up. The witter possibilities end with his imagination. If they wished so, they could have created a dlc that adds a geth&EDI filter that doesn't destroy them, or Shepard telling catalyst to just move the reapers into the sun with high paragon interupt.
They had possibilities and they knew it. They could have satisfised their fanbase. If they choose not to do so, then either they had a plan (ME4) or they are mad, since only mad people are illogical.

[ElectronicPostingInterface]

There isn't a need for Mass Effect.

It's just a game.

People want things, so we have luxury items to relax and have fun with. MEHEM is just an extension of this.

Modifié par PKchu, 10 mars 2013 - 11:20 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

SiriusXI wrote...
Once again, it does not matter how "boring" it is, what matters is that Starchild is gone. 

This.  I will concede that with Javik, Leviathan, and EC installed, the main plot of ME3 makes some ok sense at the end, but I find it absurd that I'm supposed to pay $20 in DLC for a coherent main plot.  Excising the Catalyst completely is easier on my wallet.

Baelrahn wrote...
A thing I want to state in hindsight to this discussion: I really hate the modern trend of dismissing non-depressive, or yeah, downright happy endings as cheesy, unrealistic, less mature, or less sophisticated. I think it is a shortcoming of many modern writers not to attempt to prove these assumptions wrong, because at least I'm convinced that they fundamentally are. 

This.  My two usual examples here are Lord of the Rings and Avatar: The Last Airbender.  You can have a powerful story that ends on a happy note, and still have depth and maturity along with it.  My tastes in fiction right now run toward horror and gallows humor, but I can still appreciate a good happy ending.

[Mastone]

I saw some comments on people comparing ME to Disney, because of the happy endings.
I can only say these people have no idea what they are talking about.
The ME (writing) team couldn't create anything that comes even close to what Disney has created, I am fortunate enough to work in an industry where I have had contact with people from a company like Pixar and I have also read a book or two about how Disney approaches their creations.
These people use S-3D, color, story, characters and pacing not as cheap gimmicks but as ingredients to tell a perfect story.
Just an example where as a lot of companies use stereoscopic 3d (S-3D) as compositing planes, Pixar used it to convey the characters' mood and demeanor ( in UP the old guy has litle depth while the kid has a much larger depth).

ME1 was a good start, ME2 started to go ridiculous and ME3 went full retard storywise, regardless if it was a happy ending or not.

People saying a happy ending is unrealistic are probably right, but they also need to realise that a fictional story has got a storyarch and within that there is the story and the lore, the reason people are upset wih the ending is not the fact hat it ends bad, but because it ends retarded and yes MEHEM fixes that by simply omitting some last additions which should have been cut out in the first place

[Jassu1979]

SiriusXI wrote...
Once again, it does not matter how "boring" it is, what matters is that Starchild is gone. Reapers are still these incomprehensible force that harvest organics for unknown reasons (maybe to procreate).Starchilds stupid circular logic from hell does not reduce the bad guys to puppets and does not make the plots of ME1 and ME2 irrelevant or downright nonsensical.

That's why MEHEM is better than the original endings. Is it still a badly written one? Of course. We have one giant win button (instead of 3). But that is hardly the modder's fault. MEHEM helps keeping the universe story and lore wise in tact, something the original endings xould never do.

And "triumphant" were none of the endings. Some were sad, depressing, some stupid and childish, some wew even scary. But none of them were triumphant and sure as hell none of them were good.


Have been watching the Watchmen yesterday. This movie has a pretty sad ending, too, but a pretty damn well written one.

^^This.

[Jassu1979]

Baelrahn wrote...

A thing I want to state in hindsight to this discussion: I really hate the modern trend of dismissing non-depressive, or yeah, downright happy endings as cheesy, unrealistic, less mature, or less sophisticated. I think it is a shortcoming of many modern writers not to attempt to prove these assumptions wrong, because at least I'm convinced that they fundamentally are.

For example, there is a song by The Bandits called "Another Sad Song" - which is about the attempt of writing a happy song, but settling for a sad one because it is way easier.

Indeed. "Sad" does not translate to "more profound/realistic". A sad (or "bittersweet") ending can be just as cheap, superficial, ill-conceived, unrealistic and silly as a happy ending - and happy endings can be quite profound and thought-inspiring.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

SiriusXI wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

MEHEM is pretty boring in my opinion. A very typical videogame ending. Other than that, it's not like anyone is forcing you to download it. Just try and ignore it.

I feel the original endings provides the player with everything from the super depressing to the triumphant.

Once again, it does not matter how "boring" it is...

Stopped reading. If something is just boring, I see no reason to waste my time with it.

[Dr_Extrem]

Neizd wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Neizd wrote...

It's not like people are angry about current endings. They are fine, but some people really wanted some happines for their Shepard. My personal Commander Shepard lost too much in my opinion. It would be nice to at least have a choice for a happy ending. BW didn't add it so they basicially said: You don't have a choice, you must loose something.

A lot of people roleplay ME series more than one...some people have 15 different playthroughs, yet, no matter how different they are it all comes down to A, B, C and now D. It turns out they actually didn't need to spend so many hours playing...they could have played one time and just reload.

My personall opinion is, that a happy ending should have been allowed for those dedicated fans, since it wouldn't hurt anybody... Why Bioware didn't add it must be related to ME4 somehow, otherwise their decision is like a decision made by a woman that has her period "no, bacuse of no"

they made the decision i a state, where they wanted to end mass effect as a whole. the original endings intent is pretty clear. "torch and run"

when they wrote the endings, they had no idea, that they would make a new me-game.

Sorry, can't agree since I am a indie game developer myself, and in our team we have everything planned for 5 years ahead (the main outline). Even if there will be changes to our plans, based on fan feedback, the main outline always stays the same.

The same thing will be with ME4, since they must have known that they will be making it before finishing the game. Making an actuall game is not a problem with a good team...it's making the agreements, deciding how many money will be spent etc that is the main problem and those things EA had to have planned at least half a year before the first annoucement of ME4.

Looking at ME3 ending with eyes of story writter, for me at least it looks like they were creating a background for the new game, that's why the EC didn't change the actuall endings and didn't give us the happy ending. It would change the main outline for ME4 if they changed too much.

I believe that what Bioware plans is to create the next game with new pratagonist that for half of the story is indoctrinated, then breaks the indoctrination and near the end saves Shepard that is laying in the rubble near the beam. Then they save the day.

That story otline would give Bioware a very good fresh start:

- You can see Shepard again...and fight alongside him! 
- New players don't need to own ME1, ME2 or ME3. It's a separate game with default Shepard...or he/she can wear helmet or whatever.
- If done right they don't need to add a problematic Save import option...or they can and import only Shepard apperance, who was LI etc. the basic choices.

This would ensure for the separate game to avoid people angry about the ending, would also give a fresh start and we would see our loved characters again. It would also build a great background for the game after ME4 if EA wishes so.

normally, i would agree with you .. but the me-team did not even have plans, how to end the current trilogy ...they were doing it "on the way".

mass effect was planned as a trilogy - but the plans did not really contain a solid route. mass effect 2s story is a perfect example and the ending-problem, fits to this pattern as well.


biowares statements are clear:

- no more shepard
- fresh start
- its not mass effect 4

[Dr_Extrem]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

SiriusXI wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

MEHEM is pretty boring in my opinion. A very typical videogame ending. Other than that, it's not like anyone is forcing you to download it. Just try and ignore it.

I feel the original endings provides the player with everything from the super depressing to the triumphant.

Once again, it does not matter how "boring" it is...

Stopped reading. If something is just boring, I see no reason to waste my time with it.

finally something i can absolutly agrre with.

"boring" is something very personal and subjective - it depends on the individual taste.

[Neizd]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

normally, i would agree with you .. but the me-team did not even have plans, how to end the current trilogy ...they were doing it "on the way".

mass effect was planned as a trilogy - but the plans did not really contain a solid route. mass effect 2s story is a perfect example and the ending-problem, fits to this pattern as well.


biowares statements are clear:

- no more shepard
- fresh start
- its not mass effect 4

Actually there is no proof they didn't had plans, since their plans could be simply bad. Let me explain:

The main outline of ME trillogy is:

ME1 - Introduce the universe, learn about enemies (reapers), shock players (the talk with sovereign), stop the enemis for now.  - Jade empire is somehow similiar
ME2 - Expand the universe. In prevorious game they showed we stopped the reapers for a time period...but they had to make Shepard lose 2 years and they had to introduce collectors so that the reapers doesn't simply fly and fly and fly. They also added next enemy (cerberus) or rather a build up for them.
ME3 - Conclusion for the game...but it's not the conclusion. A lot of unanswered questions, a lot of missed characters (Shiala, Kal'reegar, etc.) a lot of holes still to fill. ME3 "ended" Shepard arc, while at the same time opened the game for ME4 or possibilities for it.

The main outline NEVER changed. Shepard had to stop the reapers and he did it...or didn't. It's to be seen in ME4. It doesn't matter if it was indoctrination, dark energy plot, or the catalyst. The game would have the same conclusion or rather a build up for next game.

Point is. If they wanted to finish the trillogy once and for all we would have seen Shiala and all of the characters, we would have gotten decent epilogue (like DA:O, or Baldur's gate or kotor, or Jade empire) we didn't get the final conclusion. Conclusion yes...not definitive. This means there were some plans out there and the only possibility is ME4.

As for bioware statements:

- No more Shepard could mean that we don't PLAY as him/her but we can still get a cameo.
- Fresh start = It's possible, but it would have to be linket to the main trillogy to avoid backslash. A link like that would also show people that it's worth it to play the prevorious trillogy.
- It's not ME4 - True it's not, but the universe, the link to prevorious trillogy is still out there. Shepard was/is in there and the won't be able to avoit it because this time it would change too much.

[SuperNerd1975]

Take it for what it is, the ending of ME3 is not going to be altered by Bioware beyond the Extended Cut DLC (which was included with my copy of the trilogy at no cost). That being said, once I figured out what the results of each decision are I began choosing the destroy option every time. I downloaded and installed version 0.2 of the MEHEM and did not like it very much so I uninstalled MEHEM. I'm not sure why Bioware decided to end the story the way they did, but I can live with it. After all, if you play through the entire series from ME1 through ME3 it's a very epic story and a great RPG experience. It's also a lot of fun. When the next Mass Effect game is finally released for PC I will not hesitate to buy a copy simply because now I am curious to see where the series will go now that Commander Shepard's story is over. I am not going to discredit the entire trilogy just because the ending was sad. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and mine is that I don't have anything to complain about. I liked the extended cut version of the ME3 ending. Now let's close the book on Commander Shepard and move on. As I said, looking forward to the next game in the series.

[Dr_Extrem]

Neizd wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

normally, i would agree with you .. but the me-team did not even have plans, how to end the current trilogy ...they were doing it "on the way".

mass effect was planned as a trilogy - but the plans did not really contain a solid route. mass effect 2s story is a perfect example and the ending-problem, fits to this pattern as well.


biowares statements are clear:

- no more shepard
- fresh start
- its not mass effect 4

Actually there is no proof they didn't had plans, since their plans could be simply bad. Let me explain:

The main outline of ME trillogy is:

ME1 - Introduce the universe, learn about enemies (reapers), shock players (the talk with sovereign), stop the enemis for now.  - Jade empire is somehow similiar
ME2 - Expand the universe. In prevorious game they showed we stopped the reapers for a time period...but they had to make Shepard lose 2 years and they had to introduce collectors so that the reapers doesn't simply fly and fly and fly. They also added next enemy (cerberus) or rather a build up for them.
ME3 - Conclusion for the game...but it's not the conclusion. A lot of unanswered questions, a lot of missed characters (Shiala, Kal'reegar, etc.) a lot of holes still to fill. ME3 "ended" Shepard arc, while at the same time opened the game for ME4 or possibilities for it.

The main outline NEVER changed. Shepard had to stop the reapers and he did it...or didn't. It's to be seen in ME4. It doesn't matter if it was indoctrination, dark energy plot, or the catalyst. The game would have the same conclusion or rather a build up for next game.

Point is. If they wanted to finish the trillogy once and for all we would have seen Shiala and all of the characters, we would have gotten decent epilogue (like DA:O, or Baldur's gate or kotor, or Jade empire) we didn't get the final conclusion. Conclusion yes...not definitive. This means there were some plans out there and the only possibility is ME4.

As for bioware statements:

- No more Shepard could mean that we don't PLAY as him/her but we can still get a cameo.
- Fresh start = It's possible, but it would have to be linket to the main trillogy to avoid backslash. A link like that would also show people that it's worth it to play the prevorious trillogy.
- It's not ME4 - True it's not, but the universe, the link to prevorious trillogy is still out there. Shepard was/is in there and the won't be able to avoit it because this time it would change too much.

mass effect changed its face with every game.

it started as a relativly hard scifi setup and introduced the reapers. mass effect 2 went into a totally different direction and only arrival had something to do with the overarching plot (reaper invasion is coming, lets prepare). me2s main plt is the plot of a classic spin off - it playes in the same universe but is disconnected from the real plot. mass effect 2 is in stagnation. 
mass effect 3 is trying to go back to me1 - but does not really achieve it. in additon, ideas from mass effect 2 are totally scrapped and ignored.

the game design changed 2 times and the writers admitted, that they had no idea, what they were doing. the lead writer left the team after the second game.

they had plans to make 3 games - but had no idea, what they were doing - it hurts ...

[shodiswe]

As for MEHEM, it looks like a disneyproduction obsessed with happyness and rainbows.

My main problems with the endgame and endings wanst that it wasn't happy enough, though I admit it was a little bit on the bitter side... But what was far worse was that it feel like it was poorely done, and barely thouht through. It has some interestings that can be debated, sepculated on. But I think it was poorely done compared to the rest of Mass Effect.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

^^ They should have employed/asked JMS (creator/writer of B5) to plan it out.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 10 mars 2013 - 12:11 .

[Dr_Extrem]

shodiswe wrote...

As for MEHEM, it looks like a disneyproduction obsessed with happyness and rainbows.

My main problems with the endgame and endings wanst that it wasn't happy enough, though I admit it was a little bit on the bitter side... But what was far worse was that it feel like it was poorely done, and barely thouht through. It has some interestings that can be debated, sepculated on. But I think it was poorely done compared to the rest of Mass Effect.

its totally happy ... everybody is smiling, wild partys, silly jokes ...


i wait thats the new dlc.



really ... i have not seen even one rainbow in this mod and the crew is mouring the dead. if a broken, surviving protagonist makes the game happy, your standards for happyness are quite low.