26 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

why is it being argued that synthesis is a bad choice because an elite spectre who found the reapers and tried to solve indoctrination and prevent the genocide of all organic life before being himself indoctrinated?  Who (may have) redeemed himself on top of it.

I mean, just because someone was your opponent doesn't mean their ideas are automatically wrong.  Apollo Creed helped Rocky regain the eye of the tiger to fight Mr. T after all. Apollo was right, even though he was rocky's former nemesis.

[daaaav]

From what I understand of ME1 Saren was resigned to saving a sliver of a sliver of organic life before he became indoctrinated. Not exactly an ideal solution wouldn't you say?

[Uncle Jo]

DuffyMJ wrote...

why is it being argued that synthesis is a bad choice because an elite spectre who found the reapers and tried to solve indoctrination and prevent the genocide of all organic life before being himself indoctrinated?  Who (may have) redeemed himself on top of it.

I mean, just because someone was your opponent doesn't mean their ideas are automatically wrong.  Apollo Creed helped Rocky regain the eye of the tiger to fight Mr. T after all. Apollo was right, even though he was rocky's former nemesis.

Very pertinent comparison.

[DuffyMJ]

Uncle Jo wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

why is it being argued that synthesis is a bad choice because an elite spectre who found the reapers and tried to solve indoctrination and prevent the genocide of all organic life before being himself indoctrinated?  Who (may have) redeemed himself on top of it.

I mean, just because someone was your opponent doesn't mean their ideas are automatically wrong.  Apollo Creed helped Rocky regain the eye of the tiger to fight Mr. T after all. Apollo was right, even though he was rocky's former nemesis.

Very pertinent comparison.

Mr T was the reapers, seriously.  He wanted to harvest Shepard, and it wasn't about strategy or tactics "I DON'T NEED NO STRATEGY, I PREDICT.... PAIN. "

[templar_117]

Indoctrinated people cant make good choices as they are just doing the reapers bidding, like the Illusive man and control

[dreamgazer]

[Harbinger's voice] I PITY THE SHEPARD! [/Harbinger]

[BleedingUranium]

Indoctrinated means it's just the Reapers' idea and plans.

The Reapers are the villains. In fiction, the villains are used to show ideas the author disagrees with, while the protagonist's allies are used to show ideas the author agrees with.

TL;DR: Bad guys bad, good guys good.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 10 mars 2013 - 02:34 .

[WhiteKnyght]

When Saren first discovered Sovereign, he wanted to use it to put the races of the galaxy in their place(as per Revelation, he essentially wanted to make Turians dominant) and he wanted to really stick it to humanity. Because his brother, Desolas, was killed in the First-Contact War. Although Evolution reveals that The Illusive Man convinced Saren to kill Desolas himself.

Which just goes to show how deluded Saren was for the entirety of ME. All the stuff about submitting to the Reapers and being spared and saving more lives than had ever existed was Sovereign feeding lies into his mind.

You can also tell by his contradictory remarks about Soveren. In one breath he says Sovereign is insulted by the worship the Geth have for it, then in the next, he says Sovereign thinks like a machine. The contradiction: If Sovereign thought "like a machine" in the way Saren meant to come across, it wouldn't be capable of feeling insulted, and wouldn't give two **its about being worshiped or not, only about accomplishing its mandate.

Not to mention the fact that Saren had no clue what the Reapers even did to the races they harvested(uploaded-transapience of entire races into the form of new Reaper for preservation) he certainly would not have any idea what their ultimate goal was.

As for Synthesis, you're not submitting to the Reapers and becoming slaves like Saren believed he wanted. You're reaping the benefits of the Reapers' vision.

[JedTed]

Saren didn't have the Crucible so he wouldn't have been able to execute Synthesis. Saren was also the turian equivalent of TIM, he only cared about his one race.

[NeonFlux117]

wow. Really?

It's very simple, flame away if you will, I'm going to make it very clear.

Saren wanted synthesis- Saren is indoctrinated throughout the entirety of ME1. Watch Virmire. Then watch the confrontation with Saren on the Citadel at the end of ME1. Saren words when describing what he wants and Sovereign wants are exactly what the 'catalyst' tells you about synthesis. Almost word for word.

Synthesis is an indoctrinated choice.

Now go ahead and ask about control...... It might get fun.

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 10 mars 2013 - 02:45 .

[DuffyMJ]

I don't need to discuss the control ending.  To me, control is this:

[Solmanian]

JedTed wrote...

Saren didn't have the Crucible so he wouldn't have been able to execute Synthesis. Saren was also the turian equivalent of TIM, he only cared about his one race.

We go through all of ME1 thinking this is some turian supremecy thing, and it turns out he was trying to salvage organic lif from the reapers. There's no point when saren tells shepard "I'm only going to save turians".

[NeonFlux117]

Solmanian wrote...

JedTed wrote...

Saren didn't have the Crucible so he wouldn't have been able to execute Synthesis. Saren was also the turian equivalent of TIM, he only cared about his one race.

We go through all of ME1 thinking this is some turian supremecy thing, and it turns out he was trying to salvage organic lif from the reapers. There's no point when saren tells shepard "I'm only going to save turians".

yeap, Saren wants to mold all organic life and machine (reaper). Best of both. With the weakness of neither. Into the perfect/final evolution of life...............  


Gee that sounds familiar. Probably nothing tho.

[DuffyMJ]

I still don't understand why -- because he had good intentions goaded on by indoctrination -- he's automatically wrong?

Really, why?

In Rocky 4, if you recall, Rocky tells the Soviet crowd that if them guy's can change and us guy's can change, that maybe everyone can change. I really think more mass effect fans need to watch rocky.

EDIT: and then the soviet union and iron curtain fell after Rocky 4 came out.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 10 mars 2013 - 03:00 .

[NeonFlux117]

DuffyMJ wrote...

I still don't understand why -- because he had good intentions goaded on by indoctrination -- he's automatically wrong?

Really, why?

In Rocky 4, if you recall, Rocky tells the Soviet crowd that if them guy's can change and us guy's can change, that maybe everyone can change. I really think more mass effect fans need to watch rocky.

EDIT: and then the soviet union and iron curtain fell after Rocky 4 came out.

haha, you are either a very good troll, or are just messin' around now. Maybe both? Who knows? time will tell?

[Kataphrut94]

The whole 'guilt of association' people try to pull with the endings stikes me as forced. "No, Control/Synthesis are bad endings! The people who wanted them were bad! That makes them bad!" Not to be a Godwinner, but it's like saying all dogs are evil because Hitler had one.

On the opposite side, it's also flawed to argue that the Destroy ending, in which Shepard commits knowing genocide is okay because "it's what our friend wanted" or "it's what we were always trying to do". These are both true, but I don't think they're valid excuses to justify picking Destroy over the other two. At least not with out something else to back it up.

Besides, Saren, TIM and Anderson are all dead by that point anyway. Nobody is going to be standing behind you as you make your choice going "Mmmm, I told you so!"

[NeonFlux117]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The whole 'guilt of association' people try to pull with the endings stikes me as forced. "No, Control/Synthesis are bad endings! The people who wanted them were bad! That makes them bad!" Not to be a Godwinner, but it's like saying all dogs are evil because Hitler had one.

On the opposite side, it's also flawed to argue that the Destroy ending, in which Shepard commits knowing genocide is okay because "it's what our friend wanted" or "it's what we were always trying to do". These are both true, but I don't think they're valid excuses to justify picking Destroy over the other two. At least not with out something else to back it up.

Besides, Saren, TIM and Anderson are all dead by that point anyway. Nobody is going to be standing behind you as you make your choice going "Mmmm, I told you so!"

Yeah, it's best to believe the reaper overlord. You're absolutly correct. Reapers are a good thing. And their logic and their choices in which they survive and shep dies (control, synthesis) are the best and everyone should pick them. 

Yes, I agree. 

[Absaroka]

It's because Saren was portrayed as nothing less then a desperate, deluded pawn and doing whatever Sovereign wanted in the hopes that he would survive ("Is submission not preferrable to extinction?"). The narrative of ME1 does not entertain the idea that his belief (manufactured or no) is valid nor does Shepard have the option to agree with him at the time.

I don't believe Saren getting reaper implants is the same as what happens to people in Synthesis, nor do I believe it was meant as foreshadowing of that ending. The problem is that there are parallels to him and Synthesis whether intentional or not; in the Synthesis ending, Shepard essentially assists the mastermind behind the reapers to achieve it's ultimate goal, ostentably for the greater purpose of solving a problem that would "inevitably" spell extinction for organic life (again, "Is submission not preferrable to extinction?")

It's a ridiculous narrative and thematic inconsistency (though hardly the only one) in the writing that makes many suspicious of the Synthesis ending. Though personally I just find it too ridiculous on all levels to take seriously in any way.

[Obadiah]

DuffyMJ wrote...

why is it being argued that synthesis is a bad choice because an elite spectre who found the reapers and tried to solve indoctrination and prevent the genocide of all organic life before being himself indoctrinated?  Who (may have) redeemed himself on top of it.

I mean, just because someone was your opponent doesn't mean their ideas are automatically wrong.  Apollo Creed helped Rocky regain the eye of the tiger to fight Mr. T after all. Apollo was right, even though he was rocky's former nemesis.

I wouldn't say Synthesis was bad because of Saren. More hilariously ironic, which is why I quote Saren in my sig.

Modifié par Obadiah, 10 mars 2013 - 03:13 .

[NeonFlux117]

Obadiah wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

why is it being argued that synthesis is a bad choice because an elite spectre who found the reapers and tried to solve indoctrination and prevent the genocide of all organic life before being himself indoctrinated?  Who (may have) redeemed himself on top of it.

I mean, just because someone was your opponent doesn't mean their ideas are automatically wrong.  Apollo Creed helped Rocky regain the eye of the tiger to fight Mr. T after all. Apollo was right, even though he was rocky's former nemesis.

I wouldn't say Synthesis was bad because of Saren. More hilariously ironic, which is why I quote Saren in my sig.

your sig is all that needs to be said about Saren, Synthesis and the 'Catalyst'. Trusting reapers...... It's a good thing. 

[JedTed]

Solmanian wrote...

JedTed wrote...

Saren didn't have the Crucible so he wouldn't have been able to execute Synthesis. Saren was also the turian equivalent of TIM, he only cared about his one race.

We go through all of ME1 thinking this is some turian supremecy thing, and it turns out he was trying to salvage organic lif from the reapers. There's no point when saren tells shepard "I'm only going to save turians".

That was his motivation for working with Sovereign, he only changed to his "save the galaxy by submitting to Reapers" after he was indoctrinated.

Shepard however, if Paragon, actually cares about all races so he's less corruptable.

[Venom man4]

I'm pretty sure Saren joined the Reapers because he felt if he helped speed up their return his life and a select few would be spared. It wasn't until he was indoctrinated that he claim his motives was the better future for life.

[Volc19]

It's only a problem because people love their association fallacies.

"A is C."
"A likes B."
"Therefore, B is C."

Replace A with Saren/TIM/Companions, B with Synthesis/Control/Destroy and C with bad/bad/good respectively and it becomes apparent that many arguments for/against endings are built on this logical fallacy.

[NeonFlux117]

Volc19 wrote...

It's only a problem because people love their association fallacies.

"A is C."
"A likes B."
"Therefore, B is C."

Replace A with Saren/TIM/Companions, B with Synthesis/Control/Destroy and C with bad/bad/good respectively and it becomes apparent that many arguments for/against endings are built on this logical fallacy.

nah dude, control and synthesis are bad cause they're the reapers winning. Why you ask? Shep is dead and reapers survive in all these endings. Also, indoctrination is bad- I guess you missed that memo. 

But arguing with people who choose control or synthesis is like argueing with a wall. 


Synthesis and control is shepard reasoning and giving up to the reaper logic and code. Why?


Control- The galaxy is so dumb and incompetetnt that they need the reapers and reapershepgod to watch them and guide them and babysit them so that synthetics don't kill organics and blah,blah,blah. Being that Control is the paragon choice- or the illusion, I would venture to say that paragon players brokered peace with the geth and quarian- Thereore reaper logic of the 'chaos' is flawed isn't it.

Now that's just control without the knowledge that TIM wanted control- Indonctrinated. And that in Javiks cycle, the crucible was sabataged by a prothean splinter group. Guess what? You'll never believe this but they wanted to control the reapers. And were indoctrinated. Damn, that's strange. 

Now back to synthesis, and I appologize for derailing a synthesis thread by talking about control. But you can't do one or the other because they both have the same goal. Or shall I say reaper goal. Self Preservation. Which, very coincidentially the reapers survive in these choices. But meh.... That means nothing. 

Synthesis- The galaxy is so dumb and inpefect that we must combine shepard energy, with reaper code and fire it through the crucible. Why? Because bro, synthetics will rise against organics and the peace wont' last and blah,blah,blah. But hey, reapers still survive and shep still dies, but ignore that. Pick the green one. It's the best.

Saren, Harby, sovereign, the Reapers all want synthesis. That's what harvesting is. That's what a husk is. That's what shep turns in if he chooses control or synthesis, a husk. 

Just get it.


Alright, now flame away and call me a luddite and silly and a crazy IT'er. 




BTW, I cared about Legion and the Geth deeply. And I like EDI. And I always choose destroy. They, like EVERY ally of shepard want to destroy the reapers. Geth prime at FOB "There will be no more reasoning with the old machines". Geth speak for- blow these d!cks of this planet and send them back to hell, we got your back Shepard".

Modifié par NeonFlux117, 10 mars 2013 - 04:30 .