278 réponses à ce sujet

[fraggle]

Hi.   It´s sad that the german section looks like it´s in a coma.

 

Ah, but here it's quite lively I wouldn't know the german terms of the games anyway, never played anything else than english, haha.

[Monica21]

Someone capable of talking is capable of consenting, it's that black and white.

 

U.S. law disagrees with you.

[Batarian Master Race]

What I would've done is irrelevent since it wouldn't change his responsibility for driving one little bit, so don't try to draw me off on a sideshow. Let me reiterate this - people are responsible for their own actions, drunk or sober, and the consequences. That's all there is to it. Someone who gets drunk and does something they later regret is not a victim of another person's actions. It's not a case of "crash a into someone - criminal, have sex - victim," which would be idiotically inconsistent. Either they are fully reponsible for their actions in both cases or neither, and since I've plenty of experience with being drunk I know what it's like well enough to say the former.

 

Someone capable of talking is capable of consenting, it's that black and white.

 

I talk in my sleep. Am I able to consent in my sleep?

[fraggle]

Oh God, this is getting ridiculous.

Laws are different around the world, and what counts in the US does not count everywhere. And likely not in a video game... Where Shepard can shoot a politician in front of a C-Sec Officer and get away with it, and does all kinds of crap anyway. Uh-huh.

[Monica21]

Oh God, this is getting ridiculous.

Laws are different around the world, and what counts in the US does not count everywhere. And likely not in a video game... Where Shepard can shoot a politician in front of a C-Sec Officer and get away with it, and does all kinds of crap anyway. Uh-huh.

 

Yes, it is getting ridiculous. And I find it more than a little bit troubling that anyone would think that someone who did not want to have sex with you while sober is perfectly fine getting that person drunk enough to have sex with you.

 

No, U.S. law is not the law everywhere, which is why I specified, "U.S. law." But doesn't just about every modern, Western civilization have some kind of date rape law? As in, if you say no one time then you stop regardless of your relationship with that person? At no time did Vega ask you to help him get drunk enough to **** you. He said, "I'd have to forget who you are." While sober, he said he didn't want to have sex. That's it. That's the end. At no point does it become okay to press the issue.

 

Yes, it's ridiculous.

[fraggle]

He said, "I'd have to forget who you are." While sober, he said he didn't want to have sex. That's it. That's the end. At no point does it become okay to press the issue.

 

It was not a Yes and not a No. No clear No. IF it was a clear No then that should've come across as pretty much in your face, but they left it ambiguous. So, while sober, he did also not say he didn't want to have sex.

So, after drinking a bit at the beginning of the party, it's a "I'm certainly tempted.", again, no Yes, no No. And I don't care here if it's the law for you not to have sex with drunk people, but Vega chose to continue to drink AND chose to not tell Shepard "Leave me alone". He is an adult, he can make the choice. He could've made the choice right at the beginning to make it very clear to Shepard he doesn't want to have sex with her. He didn't. So it's his own responsibility he didn't do so.

Heck, he went to Cortez and said "There might be something heating up between Shepard an me". He probably didn't do that in a OMG PLEASE HELP ME SHE WANTS TO RAPE ME way, or else Cortez's reaction would've been a lot different. I would need to assume what he said about being conflicted, but if I had to I guess it was something along the line: Man, I actually want to go for it, but she's the Commander, and there's the regs... like it was the whole time. This is his only problem with the whole thing.

 

I don't think anyone in here ever said it's okay to press the issue, in fact I said that the dialogue is written poorly and comes across as too pushy, but Vega is not a drooling vegetable at the point where he considers to get into bed with her. It's not rape for me. Imo, it would've been rape if Vega clearly had said No at the beginning, Shepard had actually given him drinks to make him obedient and then dragged him off to have sex with him, all the while while he would still say "No".

[Monica21]

It was not a Yes and not a No. No clear No. IF it was a clear No then that should've come across as pretty much in your face, but they left it ambiguous. So, while sober, he did also not say he didn't want to have sex.

So, after drinking a bit at the beginning of the party, it's a "I'm certainly tempted.", again, no Yes, no No. And I don't care here if it's the law for you not to have sex with drunk people, but Vega chose to continue to drink AND chose to not tell Shepard "Leave me alone". He is an adult, he can make the choice. He could've made the choice right at the beginning to make it very clear to Shepard he doesn't want to have sex with her. He didn't. So it's his own responsibility he didn't do so.

Heck, he went to Cortez and said "There might be something heating up between Shepard an me". He probably didn't do that in a OMG PLEASE HELP ME SHE WANTS TO RAPE ME way, or else Cortez's reaction would've been a lot different. I would need to assume what he said about being conflicted, but if I had to I guess it was something along the line: Man, I actually want to go for it, but she's the Commander, and there's the regs... like it was the whole time. This is his only problem with the whole thing.

 

I don't think anyone in here ever said it's okay to press the issue, in fact I said that the dialogue is written poorly and comes across as too pushy, but Vega is not a drooling vegetable at the point where he considers to get into bed with her. It's not rape for me. Imo, it would've been rape if Vega clearly had said No at the beginning, Shepard had actually given him drinks to make him obedient and then dragged him off to have sex with him, all the while while he would still say "No".

 

And again, the absence of a yes does not equal consent. You actually have to say "yes" for it to be consent. Vega does not say that, ever. Not once does he say, "I want to have sex with you." I agree that it's poorly written and unintended by Bioware, what I see is clearly rape.

[fraggle]

And again, the absence of a yes does not equal consent. You actually have to say "yes" for it to be consent. Vega does not say that, ever. Not once does he say, "I want to have sex with you."* I agree that it's poorly written and unintended by Bioware, what I see is clearly rape.**

 

*Maybe he did so after taking the picture, we never see it!

 

**With US law.

We have different laws. We don't even have this Yes is Yes rule. Yet I don't go and tell people they have to accept that.

If someone would ever ask me verbally "Is it ok to have sex now?" because they expect a "Yes" out of my mouth or a nod, I would be so turned off... I don't want to say Yes, even IF I would be drunk. I just show it I want it, and that's it. But anyway, seems this is a cultural difference and nothing else. I've read a lot of german comments on one of the articles on that California law, and I see all the things I say here.

And what's the funniest thing. Who will prove in the end if a person ever said Yes in the first place? When there's no witnesses? Just two people? If a girl says Yes and regrets it in the morning and would tell anyone she felt she was raped, there's no way to ever find out what happened. I don't know what to make of it.

[Monica21]

Who will prove in the end if a person ever said Yes in the first place? When there's no witnesses? Just two people? If a girl says Yes and regrets it in the morning and would tell anyone she felt she was raped, there's no way to ever find out what happened. I don't know what to make of it.

 

And this is why rape is a very difficult case to prove in court. The unfortunate thing is that we tell women not to drink too much. Not to dress a certain way. Be careful of what you're drinking and who's buying. We tell women, "You sure acted like you wanted it!" We blame the victim. What we don't do is tell men, "Hey, are you sure she wants to have sex with you? Like, absolutely 100% sure? Because if you're not sure then don't have sex with her." We don't do a good job telling men what rape is or talking about coercive rape.

[fraggle]

And this is why rape is a very difficult case to prove in court. The unfortunate thing is that we tell women not to drink too much. Not to dress a certain way. Be careful of what you're drinking and who's buying.

 

I get that, I do. It's the same for us. And I never ever make light of the topic rape. It is horrible if something like that happens, no matter if it's a female or a male being raped.

But with how I see it... we are told and taught to be responsible with drinking, like you also just said. It's really all that can be done imo. You can't monitor a person 24/7 and tell them "Stop, now you've had enough!" We need to rely on people's responsibility while letting everyone still lead the life they want.

Alcohol is a problem too (it's really bad in Germany as well), but people are warned, people know what can happen when they drink.

And this is in no way victim blaming, that's not what I want to do. But if someone thinks they can dismiss being responsible, or think they know their own limits, then it really is their own responsibility.

 

And if Vega continues to drink so he finds the courage to have sex with Shepard, he can do that. It's his life, his responsibility. And while I think he does regret it in the morning, he's neither mad at Shepard, nor does he change towards her. They simply don't talk about it anymore, which is what I personally would expect as normal in this situation. A mistake, but whatever happened happened.

Shepard's flirting and questions are horrible, but James plays along, showing her he's still torn between Yes and No. For you, this is evidence he didn't say Yes clearly, while I never knew about such a law because we don't have it and considered the whole thing as just that. He's torn, but makes up his mind in the end by acting on it, and that's what would be normal for me.

 

Quite interesting to learn about such differences actually.

[Dantriges]

Something else. The impression I got is that the university gets involved and students go to the campus authorities with their rape charges in the US. A bit odd, I think everyone here simply goes to the police. Is that just some stuff in television or why is the university involed?

 

 

And I find it more than a little bit troubling that anyone would think that someone who did not want to have sex with you while sober is perfectly fine getting that person drunk enough to have sex with you.

 

Germans are so shy, they never say yes while sober.   Ok only half serious but the text of that song has some truth in it:

 

 

You still have the law enforcement coming after you, if there is a rape charge, so it´s not like "oh girl you were drunk, tough luck."

[Monica21]

Something else. The impression I got is that the university gets involved and students go to the campus authorities with their rape charges in the US. A bit odd, I think everyone here simply goes to the police. Is that just some stuff in television or why is the university involed?

 

You still have the law enforcement coming after you, if there is a rape charge, so it´s not like "oh girl you were drunk, tough luck."

 

Most universities have campus police. A student could go to an ER and get a rape kit and talk to the city police, but for a lot of students they are either on their parents insurance or don't have any. Going to campus officials means that whatever happens is free and most likely confidential.

 

And law enforcement coming after you doesn't mean a whole lot. Here's a disturbingly recent example.

[Dantriges]

Yeah I heard of campus police. AFAIK it´s an unknown concept here. I think most have security guards but these are guards against breaking and entering at night.

 

Insurance is mandatory and you are covered by your parent´s one in most cases or your own. Or social services. So insurance covers that. Googled a bit, seems that there are projects in several cities or states that allow you to store forensic evidence for rape until the victim is ready to endure the judicial process. We don´t have college sports or rather college sports that are important like in the Baylor incident you linked. It looks to me that their football department actually gained Baylor university some money. But of course it´s not like campuses in Germany are rape free. The university of Hamburg or the TU Bberlin offer counseling for rape victims for example and it´s still a major problem like everywhere else.

 

 

And law enforcement coming after you doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

Isn´t that one of the major points?   Yeah ok, not being assaulted at all is a lot better but governments or universities can´t look into the brains of potential rapists or grab people before they committed the crime. Yeah ok, if it´s some case of "heard he abused his girlfriend/there were some cases of rape he was involved in, but who cares, he´s a really good football player" so we let him enroll.

 

I just mentioned that in case we gave you the immpression of "Germany, if you are a victim we don´t care."

[Monica21]

Isn´t that one of the major points?   Yeah ok, not being assaulted at all is a lot better but governments or universities can´t look into the brains of potential rapists or grab people before they committed the crime. Yeah ok, if it´s some case of "heard he abused his girlfriend/there were some cases of rape he was involved in, but who cares, he´s a really good football player" so we let him enroll.

 

I just mentioned that in case we gave you the impression of "Germany, if you are a victim we don´t care."

 

What I meant is that going through official university channels often gets you nowhere. The school was prepared to look the other way before the victim pressed charges, and they were still supporting the rapist until after the verdict. So, yes he had law enforcement coming after him and a trial, but the school was still protecting him. Even going so far as "clearing" him to play after a few interviews.

[Dantriges]

Ah ok. So the whole school security thing is more or less useless unless you see schoool interests as a priority. Makes this whole free and confidential deal they offer some kind of a sick joke. ofc it´s free so you come to us and it´s confidential so we can sweep it under the rug. No need to involve the police.

[Reorte]

U.S. law disagrees with you.

Thank heavens I don't live in the US then if it's that randomly inconsistent with itself. The idea that in law people aren't responsible for their own actions (and only in some cases not in others) is incredibly disturbing. Justice it most certainly isn't.

[Monica21]

Thank heavens I don't live in the US then if it's that randomly inconsistent with itself. The idea that in law people aren't responsible for their own actions (and only in some cases not in others) is incredibly disturbing. Justice it most certainly isn't.

 

Are you talking about responsibility for being drunk or responsibility for consenting?

[Reorte]

I'm talking about being responsible for what you do full stop, and you can't use drink as an excuse - being drunk doesn't let you off the hook for being responsible for your actions, whether it's getting in the car and driving off or sleeping with someone and then later regretting it. If you do something you regret tough, that's your problem.

[Monica21]

I'm talking about being responsible for what you do full stop, and you can't use drink as an excuse - being drunk doesn't let you off the hook for being responsible for your actions, whether it's getting in the car and driving off or sleeping with someone and then later regretting it. If you do something you regret tough, that's your problem.

You do understand the concept of alcohol impairment, right?

[Reorte]

You do understand the concept of alcohol impairment, right?

 So what? It doesn't remove responsibility for your actions. What sort of court would say "OK, off you go" if your explanation for doing something that you shouldn't have done was "I was drunk, I could hardly be expected to be in control of myself." I'm sure you'll agree that you should still get locked up if you try to force yourself on someone after you've had a few.

 

There's an ever-increasing trend of a lack of personal responsibility spreading through society and it worries me hugely.

[Monica21]

So what? It doesn't remove responsibility for your actions. What sort of court would say "OK, off you go" if your explanation for doing something that you shouldn't have done was "I was drunk, I could hardly be expected to be in control of myself." I'm sure you'll agree that you should still get locked up if you try to force yourself on someone after you've had a few.

There's an ever-increasing trend of a lack of personal responsibility spreading through society and it worries me hugely.

That is not what impaired consent is. Try the Google machine. Off you go.

[Reorte]

You're going to have to do better than "go and look up my argument for me." You've still failed to demonstrate that someone shouldn't be responsible for their actions when drunk, which includes giving consent.

[Monica21]

Here.

[HellbirdIV]

 Remember how everyone used to hate him?

Gotta admit, he grew on me. His muscle-headed tough-guy routine is fitting, and at the same time he's also clueless about the finer points of the politics and science behind what he sees. Shepard has to "show him the ropes" of being more than just a grunt.

Eggs?

 

I think my annoyance with EDI and all the other things ME3 did wrong overshadowed Vega, who was mostly just boring.

 

He did make me laugh on Eden Prime with Liara though. "Hey, I just like dinosaurs."

[Reorte]

Here.

Yes, very funny. Now, do you actually have something to say?