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[fraggle]

But Femshep coerces Vega into getting drunk and having sex with her. That's fairly textbook sexual predator material, and judging by James's reactions both before and after the act, he's not exactly comfortable with how things happened. The entire "romance" smacks of coercive, drug-assisted rape, and yet I've seen no one else raise this point.

 

That's because I see it differently. (I'm only commenting on James and FemShep here, as I've yet to play with Jack as LI)

I've posted this in a different topic before, if you're interested:

http://forum.bioware...ogy/?p=19457080

 

I've watched a lot of the Citadel scenes in the past weeks to see Vega's different reactions when Shepard either allowed him to call her Lola or not. Everything points to Vega being too intimidated by Shepard, he needs to cut loose when he wants to forget she's the Commander. That's why he goes with alcohol. To climb that last hurdle. It's obvious he wants her, too, but he respects military rules and his own too much.

I highly doubt Bioware would put in a rape-themed romance. Rape is a tough topic, but some people jump to conclusions very quickly imho.

[Batarian Master Race]

I'm watching the Citadel romance, and a lot of Shepard's actions seem downright manipulative.

 

When James is uncomfortable with the lack of personal space Shepard gives him ("Um... uh huh."), instead of backing off and giving him space, she twists the conversation to make herself the injured party: "You don't like what you see? :C" and "Well, now that you've shot me down, is there anything else you want to talk about? >:C". This reframes the issue from Shepard inserting herself into James's space, which is the root cause of the problem.

 

Later, at the party, she's given the choice to leave Vega alone or to urge him to drink, with the implication that the second will cause him to have sex with her. Picking the second option is as blatantly coercion as you can get. This is reinforced afterwards: "James, how are those drinks going down? And by how, I mean are you almost done?"

 

Even with a few drinks, Vega's not sure he wants to have sex with Shep: "This is beginning to look like one of those once-in-a-lifetime nights." Shep is sure that he's going to do so, however: "Good. I'll see you later."

 

There are no less than nine bottles next to the bed when they awaken. James must have been drunk as a skunk.

 

"That was..." "Fun? Crazy? Wild?" "Definitely... I think." James isn't sure how he feels about having sex with Shepard. While he may have enjoyed the physical act, that doesn't mean he consented. In fact, he's ashamed of what happened: "Maybe let's not mention this again." Instead of respecting his boundaries, Shepard manipulates him one last time, albeit jokingly.

 

1) James's feelings about the act both before and after are ambiguous at best, with a completely sober James leaning towards "no".

 

2) Even if he did want it, James was clearly intoxicated and thus could not consent.

 

 

 

I highly doubt Bioware would put in a rape-themed romance. 

 

 

As do I.

 

At least, intentionally. See, female-on-male rape is rarely taken seriously in society, and is normalized far more than any other sort. Thus, the writer may not have seen Shepard's actions as rape due to their perceptions on male rape.

[fraggle]

I see where you're coming from, but I've spent a lot of time looking through Vega stuff lately because I go through with the one-night stand and wanted to see every possible angle because at first I was also put off a bit by it.

So I found out that originally he was apparently planned as a fling/romance of some sorts, with them having a conversation at the FOB that showed that James wanted more, but couldn't.

He takes his military career way too serious (this is also quite clear during the conversation in Shepard's cabin as he states it's the only thing he's ever really been good at) and he wouldn't dare jeopardizing everything by starting something serious with his Commander (According to some people in Vega's character thread this was also said during some PAX event as a reason for no romance in the end).

Now obviously they've cut that content or simply didn't want to pursue it, but it fits to his character. He's flirty, but as soon as it gets serious, he looks for a way out. He's flustered both during the tattoo scene, and when he comes to the apartment to show you the tattoo.

He even asks Shepard after she says that it's too bad he doesn't mean anything by the flirting, if she's yanking his chain or not. Would he ask that if he wasn't interested himself? I kinda doubt that.

And if I'm not completely colour blind he turns super red when Shepard gets even more serious. That's why he stammers, that's why he starts saying he does like what he sees, because he is interested, too, but he's shy (have you seen Paragon Lost? If yes, remember how he acts around the asari) and Shepard's still his Commander. This is his top argument when Shepard asks what it would take to convince James. Another point is that if you take him to the Casino date, he flirts again afterwards, saying:

"Careful, Shepard. A guy gets taken on a hot date by a girl, he starts getting ideas... all of them within Alliance regulations." (or something along those lines)

 

I know the flirting lines are a bit horrible and pushy, and yes, this could've been done better, but James still knows what he does. It's his decision to drink and "give in to the feeling" (he flat out states he's certainly tempted and that he doesn't have a problem seeing Shepard as a woman. The problem is she's the Commander).

He doesn't know yet that he's gonna regret it, he just gives in to the now. As it is probably quite often with one-night stands.

And truthfully, I'm female, and if any guy would behave around me like FemShep does, I would be responsible for drinking and giving in. I would never ever consider that rape. The choice to drink is your own, no matter how persuasive the other party is. If you know you don't want it, you'd say no, and not "I'm certainly tempted".

I doubt that James is doing it to just please Shepard. No, he actually thinks about it, weighs his options and goes for it eventually because he wants it.

[Batarian Master Race]

Having just gone through title IX training at my college, Shepard's "flirty" lines are a lot more than just flirty.

 

1) Shepard pressures James into drinking, knowing it'll be a gateway into sex. This is coercion via drugs.

2) Shepard has sex with a clearly drunk man. Vega cannot consent. This is rape.

3) Spousal rape can and does happen. Vega being interested in Shepard =/= consent.

4) Shepard constantly makes James's expressions of his emotions into personal attacks. This is manipulative; were they in a relationship, I'd consider it domestic abuse.

5) Shepard has a position of power and influence over James. While not in itself rape, consent between two such individuals is often warped by hero worship.

 

 If you know you don't want it, you'd say no, and not "I'm certainly tempted".

And if you know you want it, you'd say "Yes", without the effect of drugs in your system. Affirmative consent exists for a reason.

 

Shepard coerces James into sex, and clearly initiates sex with a drunk man. These two alone make Shepard a rapist.

[fraggle]

I guess we'll just have to disagree here then.

[Batarian Master Race]

Normally I'd agree to disagree, but... seriously? You don't think that having sex with someone you've pressured to drink is just the tiniest bit rapey?

 

Because that case, with the genders reversed, was one of the ones that we went over during title IX training. And it was definitely, unambiguously rape.

[Monica21]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

 

The Citadel romance for James is actually something I hate with a fiery passion, despite wanting James to be romanceable. And here's why.

 

When Shepard urged Jack towards a romance, it was described by many on the forums as "rapey". Having played out that romance... yeah, I see that, honestly. Shepard's a fair bit creepy there, and Jack's clearly uncomfortable with most of the thing.

 

But Femshep coerces Vega into getting drunk and having sex with her. That's fairly textbook sexual predator material, and judging by James's reactions both before and after the act, he's not exactly comfortable with how things happened. The entire "romance" smacks of coercive, drug-assisted rape, and yet I've seen no one else raise this point.

 

I commented on this earlier today in a thread in the Andromeda forums. Based on the general description of the one-night stand, which I've neither seen nor participated in, I called it rapey. Based on your much more definitive description of what happened, I'd say it's definitely rape. Someone who's drunk can't consent and there's no way around that.

[Vanilka]

Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

 

The Citadel romance for James is actually something I hate with a fiery passion, despite wanting James to be romanceable. And here's why.

 

When Shepard urged Jack towards a romance, it was described by many on the forums as "rapey". Having played out that romance... yeah, I see that, honestly. Shepard's a fair bit creepy there, and Jack's clearly uncomfortable with most of the thing.

 

But Femshep coerces Vega into getting drunk and having sex with her. That's fairly textbook sexual predator material, and judging by James's reactions both before and after the act, he's not exactly comfortable with how things happened. The entire "romance" smacks of coercive, drug-assisted rape, and yet I've seen no one else raise this point.

 

I must agree here. On the other hand, I've never played the romance, I've only seen it in a video and I don't know whether it can play out any differently. But I must also say that in the version I've seen Shepard does come across as very pushy and creepy, if not downright scary, and James looks very uncomfortable to me. So, yeah, I don't particularly like how that was handled, either. It really didn't feel good to watch.

[fraggle]

Normally I'd agree to disagree, but... seriously? You don't think that having sex with someone you've pressured to drink is just the tiniest bit rapey?

 

Because that case, with the genders reversed, was one of the ones that we went over during title IX training. And it was definitely, unambiguously rape.

 

Well, if I consider the opening sentence of Shepard at the party:

"What's it gonna take to see me as a woman instead of your Commander?", no, this is not really pressuring someone to have sex. Pushy, I agree, but...

It is James then who brings alcohol into play, not Shepard. He could've said "Get lost." at this point, but instead he goes along with it.

Shepard does not even mention alcohol at all. Only later, when James already made up his mind.

Isn't the order in which things go down here important? If I'm the one suggesting drinks, do I not know what I'm doing there?

 

Anyway, I stay with the notion that Bioware would not include a rapey romance. I'm sure this is definitely not their intent.

[Batarian Master Race]

Well, if I consider the opening sentence of Shepard at the party:

"What's it gonna take to see me as a woman instead of your Commander?", no, this is not really pressuring someone to have sex. Pushy, I agree, but...

It is James then who brings alcohol into play, not Shepard. He could've said "Get lost." at this point, but instead he goes along with it.

Shepard does not even mention alcohol at all. Only later, when James already made up his mind.

Isn't the order in which things go down here important? If I'm the one suggesting drinks, do I not know what I'm doing there?

 

Anyway, I stay with the notion that Bioware would not include a rapey romance. I'm sure this is definitely not their intent.

 

Shepard asked what it would take for Vega to be interested in her. He responded that it would take him being in a very specific mindset... one that necessarially includes him being unable to consent. James answered Shepard's question: it would take alcohol to get him anywhere near being willing to sleep with Shepard.

 

And what's Shepard's response? "Glad you're coming around, James." She treats it like she's entitled to sex with Vega, and that whatever drugs he has to use to alter his state of mind are completely fine, so long as she gets a piece of him.

 

If you ask Cortez how James is doing, he'll say that James is still undecided, even after a few drinks. It's only when Shepard approaches and begins (verbally) pushing him towards her bed that he begins to lean towards the idea of having sex with Shepard.

 

Shepard is the one initiating the topic, constantly pressuring Vega towards the idea that sex with her is the correct thing for him to do. She makes it seem like his reluctance to diddle her is a personal insult to her (twice), which robs him of his agency. Despite being given numerous examples of Vega being uneasy with the prospect, Shepard continues to push him towards her bed.

 

Look at it this way. If a guy were at a party with a girl that sorta liked him, and he continually pushed her to drink and to have sex with him until she finally relented, would you not see that as coercive rape?

 

Look at it any way you want, this is rape on no less than two counts. Bioware should be ashamed of themselves for normalizing and dismissing female-on-male rape... and, if we're being quite honest, so should you.

[fraggle]

Shepard asked what it would take for Vega to be interested in her. He responded that it would take him being in a very specific mindset... one that necessarially includes him being unable to consent. James answered Shepard's question: it would take alcohol to get him anywhere near being willing to sleep with Shepard.

 

"near being willing", no he would be willing before imo if not for that Commander thing, but then he also knows he will not go any further. Meaning, a relationship. That's why he only settles for the one-night stand. He said himself that he has been in some physical only relationships before he shows Shepard his tattoo. He tells you that he has been in no serious relationships since he joined the military, but he's still flesh and blood, meaning he has his needs, too. So this is not new to him (hell, he can even hook-up with Ash for the night if she's alive...). The only thing that is new to him is that his superior, a person he respects way too much, is interested in him (It doesn't even have to be that Shepard only wants sex from James, she could've fallen for him and is genuinely interested in more besides the flirting; I RP my Shepard that way). I hope you can see a bit more where I'm coming from now, because believe me, at first I was also put off.

But it also makes sense to me now why he reacted the way he reacted. And if I'm being honest, if I was in James's situation and needed a bit of alcohol to find some courage, I might do it too (now I'm sure I won't ever be in such a situation as I dislike one-night stands and parties in general, but hypothetical speaking...). I'm very shy in real life and I can somewhat understand why he wants to drink. It does loosen you up, and I was able to talk more open when I drank back when I was younger. But that doesn't mean I wasn't still knowing what I'm doing.

 

If you ask Cortez how James is doing, he'll say that James is still undecided, even after a few drinks. It's only when Shepard approaches and begins (verbally) pushing him towards her bed that he begins to lean towards the idea of having sex with Shepard.

 

To me it sounded more like James was conflicted before (yes, we've seen this), but he liked the fact that something was heating up between him and Shepard. And Cortez is a lovely guy, so who in their right mind would say then "It was actually kinda sweet" and "you two deserve each other" if it would be as bad as you say? If James would've been clearly still so conflicted as you say, leaning more towards no, Bioware would not have Cortez say that, I'm pretty sure.

 

Shepard is the one initiating the topic, constantly pressuring Vega towards the idea that sex with her is the correct thing for him to do. She makes it seem like his reluctance to diddle her is a personal insult to her (twice), which robs him of his agency. Despite being given numerous examples of Vega being uneasy with the prospect, Shepard continues to push him towards her bed.

 

Yes, I can agree to that a bit. She doesn't give up. She also did that with Jacob from what I know. And there are people in real life just as pushy.

But like I said, it doesn't need to be "I only want sex with him." FemShep was screwed over pretty badly with her romances.

I guess we all perceive things differently, but to me she looked really really hurt when Vega first turned her down... for being the Commander; after constantly flirting with her.

 

Look at it this way. If a guy were at a party with a girl that sorta liked him, and he continually pushed her to drink and to have sex with him until she finally relented, would you not see that as coercive rape?

 

Ok, I have one problem with your example here: you say "continually" pushing to drink. Shepard doesn't do that continually. She is pushy before, but like I said already, AFTER James brings alcohol into play she asks him one time "how the drinks are going down" (and yes, I actually hate that sentence, it's stupid. But whatever). One question in regards to the drinks. That's not continually to me.

 

Look at it any way you want, this is rape on no less than two counts. Bioware should be ashamed of themselves for normalizing and dismissing female-on-male rape... and, if we're being quite honest, so should you.

 

Believe it or not I did question myself if I'm not thinking about this a bit too "laid-back" (as I said before, rape IS a very serious topic).

I've read so many youtube comments that are on your side and say how this is rapey. In between I've found a couple ones that are on the same side as I am. Maybe it's all in how we think about alcohol. Because I don't think drinking a bit to find courage is a bad thing if the person who does it is fully aware why he or she is drinking in the first place. And it's clear to me that James does know that very well.

Drinking to overcome your anxieties and inhibitions is actually a thing: Dutch/liquid courage, and this is very different from involuntary intoxication. It means that you're well aware of what you're doing. If someone is drinking to find courage, he/she is following through knowing very well about the effect of alcohol, hazarding the consequences.

 

And I've also looked really hard into what the dialogue could mean in regards to James's reaction, and it just made sense to me. I'm also having the opinion that if James would have not liked it, he wouldn't have asked if Shepard's interested in him in the first place. This is crucial to me. He wants to know if she's serious, but he's still also holding himself back despite wanting more, too.

 

So yeah, that's how I see it and I know my opinion is not the popular one, but I hope you can see a bit more now why I think like that.

[Vanilka]

I sincerely do not think BioWare meant it to be rape. They might have aimed at James just being shy and overcoming that shyness, rules against fraternisation, the fact she's his commander, etc. The thing is, the way it is written, from what I've seen, is very unfortunate and it really doesn't give out good vibes. I, for one, was very disappointed in Shepard for behaving this way and rape was also what I was thinking, especially after they spent the night together. James looked kind of freaked out after the whole thing, too. To me, it was upsetting. I also discussed it with a (male) friend right afterwards because I was surprised that was in the game and he didn't see the same thing, which was curious. While he agreed that Shepard was creepy, he ended up saying, "Well, at least he'll have a story to tell," and I was like, "Yeah, to his psychotherapist." Given what Batarian Master Race said and listed, now I have no doubt.

 

BioWare's saving grace might be that they most probably didn't mean it to be rape, but it still happens the way it happens. I'm glad it was brought up because that's not okay. Even if it's accidental, it's still not okay. That actually makes it sadder because it means that they didn't even recognise they violated him and that whatever they wanted to convey with this kind of writing, they did it wrong. It makes me wonder whether they did no peer review of it? Nobody noticed anything wrong with it? Did BW get any complaints about it?

[Batarian Master Race]

There's a difference between having a physical or emotional attraction to someone and wanting to have sex with them. There's also a difference between being pushy and being pressuring.

 

You're incorrect about how much Shepard pressures Vega to drink. In his party conversation, he says that it'd take many drinks in order for him to even consider having sex with Shepard. What's Shepard's response to this? "Glad you're coming around." She acts like Vega having sex with her is the "natural" or "right" thing, and is glad that he's taking the necessary steps to achieve that goal, even if it means rendering himself into a position where he CANNOT CONSENT TO SEXUAL ACTS. Vega's confused and a little put off by her response: "Glad to see I'm what?"

 

Even after a few drinks, which would be enough to lower his inhibitions, Vega's still confused. Whether or not Steve thinks it's a good pairing isn't important; it's not Steve's decision.

 

Shepard then approaches Vega afterwards, asking if he's almost done drugging himself into a state in which he'd agree to have sex with Shepard. He's still slightly apprehensive: "Lola..."

 

Even if James was the one to suggest the drinks (which he only did as an answer to what it'd take to bone Shepard), even if James was the one to actually drink, even if he was attracted to Shepard... James Vega was unable to consent.

 

Shepard raped him. There's no two ways about it.

 

 

BioWare's saving grace might be that they most probably didn't mean it to be rape, but it still happens the way it happens. I'm glad it was brought up because that's not okay. Even if it's accidental, it's still not okay. That actually makes it sadder because it means that they didn't even recognise they violated him and that whatever they wanted to convey with this kind of writing, they did it wrong. It makes me wonder whether they did no peer review of it? Nobody noticed anything wrong with it? Did BW get any complaints about it?

 

Very few that I've been able to find. Part of that might come from it being an extremely hard to unlock scene, but I'd argue that a larger part of it comes from how we see female-on-male rape. Movies like 40 Days and 40 Nights help to reinforce the idea that men can't truly be raped, that they must have wanted it. Hell, the CDC doesn't count female-on-male rape among its rape statistics. 

[Monica21]

"near being willing", no he would be willing before imo if not for that Commander thing, but then he also knows he will not go any further. Meaning, a relationship. That's why he only settles for the one-night stand. He said himself that he has been in some physical only relationships before he shows Shepard his tattoo. He tells you that he has been in no serious relationships since he joined the military, but he's still flesh and blood, meaning he has his needs, too. So this is not new to him (hell, he can even hook-up with Ash for the night if she's alive...). The only thing that is new to him is that his superior, a person he respects way too much, is interested in him (It doesn't even have to be that Shepard only wants sex from James, she could've fallen for him and is genuinely interested in more besides the flirting; I RP my Shepard that way). I hope you can see a bit more where I'm coming from now, because believe me, at first I was also put off.

But it also makes sense to me now why he reacted the way he reacted. And if I'm being honest, if I was in James's situation and needed a bit of alcohol to find some courage, I might do it too (now I'm sure I won't ever be in such a situation as I dislike one-night stands and parties in general, but hypothetical speaking...). I'm very shy in real life and I can somewhat understand why he wants to drink. It does loosen you up, and I was able to talk more open when I drank back when I was younger. But that doesn't mean I wasn't still knowing what I'm doing.

 

While I understand your point about needing liquid courage, the point where it falls apart for me is is when Shepard says, "What would it take to convince you?" and his reply is, "I'd have to forget that you were Commander Shepard." And then, of course, she actively encourages him to forget.

 

If someone doesn't want to have sex while sober, then sex while drunk is coercion.

[fraggle]

While I understand your point about needing liquid courage, the point where it falls apart for me is is when Shepard says, "What would it take to convince you?" and his reply is, "I'd have to forget that you were Commander Shepard." And then, of course, she actively encourages him to forget.

 

Yep, but right after shooting her down he flirts again when you beat his pull-up record. Why wouldn't he stop then? He goes on and on, and Shepard is very right about him being able to give it, but not take it. If he'd really be as uncomfortable, he'd stop flirting and teasing her. He doesn't. Sends off a bit of mixed feelings for me. I don't blame Shepard for pursuing him when he never stops with the flirting. If "no" means "no" then it's also unfair to keep teasing her. Yet another scene where he is conflicted about Shepard. He doesn't know if he should rather follow his heart, or his mind.

 

My point being...

1. After Shepard says it's too bad he's not serious about the flirting he shouldn't have asked if Shepard is just yanking his chain or not. Not interested? Don't ask something to go even deeper into the topic you want to escape (if he wanted, that is), it makes no sense.

2. But since he went on and keeps the topic active, he can't expect Shepard to just back down. Imo he could've gotten out of this whole thing way earlier than at the party, but he chose not to. And even at the party he doesn't get out of it, again being conflicted about following heart or mind.

 

I get it that Shepard's flirting is horrible, it always has been (seriously I didn't talk to Jacob at all in ME2 because it's just as pushy and creepy), but for me Vega isn't entirely "innocent" either.

[Monica21]

I'm sorry, but I've got alarms going off in my head right now.

 

Here's a scenario: Girl likes boy. Girl flirts with boy. Boy flirts back. Girl and boy are hanging out with friends and girl drinks too much. Girl is attracted to boy. Boy offers to take girl back to his apartment to sober up. Girl and boy end up making out. Girl really just wants to make out but is still attracted. Boy gets pushier. Girl starts saying "no" to specific things but still wants to make out until the thing happens that she didn't want to happen. Girl doesn't regret it at the time, but in the morning thinks, "boy, I really wish that hadn't happened."

 

Is the situation different if it the above roles are reversed?

 

The point is still that if someone isn't willing to have sex while sober, then that person should not be coerced into it while impaired. The girl in the above scenario was impaired. Vega is obviously impaired.

[Batarian Master Race]

Yep, but right after shooting her down he flirts again when you beat his pull-up record. Why wouldn't he stop then? He goes on and on, and Shepard is very right about him being able to give it, but not take it. If he'd really be as uncomfortable, he'd stop flirting and teasing her. He doesn't. Sends off a bit of mixed feelings for me. I don't blame Shepard for pursuing him when he never stops with the flirting. If "no" means "no" then it's also unfair to keep teasing her. Yet another scene where he is conflicted about Shepard. He doesn't know if he should rather follow his heart, or his mind.

 

My point being...

1. After Shepard says it's too bad he's not serious about the flirting he shouldn't have asked if Shepard is just yanking his chain or not. Not interested? Don't ask something to go even deeper into the topic you want to escape (if he wanted, that is), it makes no sense.

2. But since he went on and keeps the topic active, he can't expect Shepard to just back down. Imo he could've gotten out of this whole thing way earlier than at the party, but he chose not to. And even at the party he doesn't get out of it, again being conflicted about following heart or mind.

 

I get it that Shepard's flirting is horrible, it always has been (seriously I didn't talk to Jacob at all in ME2 because it's just as pushy and creepy), but for me Vega isn't entirely "innocent" either.

 

Many of your arguments sound like the ones I've seen used to blame the victim. "If they didn't want sex, they shouldn't flirt with the person." "They were sorta attracted to the person, they must have wanted it." "They made the choice to drink."

 

Once Vega's uncomfortability with actual romantic or sexual closeness was made known, Shepard should have seen his flirting for what it really was: just Vega's way of teasing someone, similar to how he teases the entire crew.

[Backdraft]

People complaining about a stereotypical space marine in a sci-fi third person shooter game  

 

lol

 

He's actually really useful and fills the role of the krogan squadmate from ME1 and ME2 with his shotgun/AR combo and tankiness which is further boosted by his fortification power. He also gets incendiary ammo which is really useful when you get the squad upgrade.

[Reorte]

James is responsible for what he does, just as Shepard is. And that whole business about not being fit to make a decision because you're drunk, well, try using that if you get caught drink-driving. I doubt that the police will then let you off due to not being considered entirely responsible for your own irresponsibility. Saying someone is grown up enough to make their own decisions isn't "victim blaming" (a phrase that gets dragged up all too often to try to talk down a discussion rather than answer it).

[fraggle]

Here's a scenario: Girl likes boy. Girl flirts with boy. Boy flirts back. Girl and boy are hanging out with friends and girl drinks too much. Girl is attracted to boy. Boy offers to take girl back to his apartment to sober up. Girl and boy end up making out. Girl really just wants to make out but is still attracted. Boy gets pushier. Girl starts saying "no" to specific things but still wants to make out until the thing happens that she didn't want to happen. Girl doesn't regret it at the time, but in the morning thinks, "boy, I really wish that hadn't happened."

 

Alright, I'm being honest here. If I was said girl and I eventually agreed to having sex because I really feel I want it in that moment, despite being conflicted earlier, I'd not consider it rape. It was a stupid decision based on my emotional state. If I regret it in the morning, it's just that. I regret it. Learn for the future, don't drink that much again if I want to prevent things like that. I would not tell that boy he raped me. Why? Because it's not like I passed out and he forced himself onto me while I was completely wasted, not even being conscious. I agreed because it's what I wanted most in that moment. And if I'm not completely wrecked due to the alcohol I can still make my decision, knowing perfectly well what I'm about to do. I get that alcohol is a serious topic and it can lead to pretty bad things, but there's always different stages. When I drink a beer I still know what I do. Even when I drink a few beers I still know what I do. I don't buy this "I'm too intoxicated to make any real decisions" for myself personally.

There certainly is a stage where that might be the case, but to say that after a few beers is strange to me. Do you really feel that out of control when having a couple of drinks?

 

Many of your arguments sound like the ones I've seen used to blame the victim. "If they didn't want sex, they shouldn't flirt with the person." "They were sorta attracted to the person, they must have wanted it." "They made the choice to drink."

 

I really don't want to come across like that because that is not what I try to say. I'm certainly not trying to blame the victim.

I'm just saying that everyone does know what alcohol can do, and you know, should be able to be responsible with it. And if it's a case of liquid courage I'm fine with this approach.

 

Anyway, this is the last thing I post in regards to this topic. I just can't picture BW going for raping an LI so I don't take it that way.

[Monica21]

Anyway, this is the last thing I post in regards to this topic. I just can't picture BW going for raping an LI so I don't take it that way.

 

This is super easy. If it's a decision someone wouldn't make while sober, then it's not consent if that person is impaired. Emphasis on "impaired." Their speech is impaired. Vision and balance are impaired. Judgment is impaired. This is black and white.

[Monica21]

James is responsible for what he does, just as Shepard is. And that whole business about not being fit to make a decision because you're drunk, well, try using that if you get caught drink-driving. I doubt that the police will then let you off due to not being considered entirely responsible for your own irresponsibility. Saying someone is grown up enough to make their own decisions isn't "victim blaming" (a phrase that gets dragged up all too often to try to talk down a discussion rather than answer it).

If your friend is too drunk to drive do you hand him the keys to his car?

[Xetykins]

You guys are making a big deal out of the whole thing. Seriously.

It was not as if Shepard was pouring alcohol down his throat the whole time, while drinking nothing for herself. I think she's just as hammered as James was, if you look at the scene with Javik. Unless people had proof otherwise, just 2 drunk people who did stupid things, and Shepard teasing him when they woke up as usual.

Also, iirc they did not even have sex, because they woke up both fully clothed. Not at all caught with their pants down, and shepard was not even seen with just her undies like the usual sex scenes in ME3. Just 2 drunk people falling on their faces on someone's arms.... and probably drooling/puking buckets.

With the flirting? I think Shepard just gave as good as she gets but James can't.

[Reorte]

If your friend is too drunk to drive do you hand him the keys to his car?

Why would I have his keys?

 

I've frequently been too drunk to drive, and you know what, I've never even tried to drive when I've been like that. Like I said you're 100% responsible for your own actions, drunk or sober. Anything else is just that pathetic "it's always someone else's fault" attitude that so plagues society today because people refuse to be responsible for themselves.

[Batarian Master Race]

You guys are making a big deal out of the whole thing. Seriously.

It was not as if Shepard was pouring alcohol down his throat the whole time, while drinking nothing for herself. I think she's just as hammered as James was, if you look at the scene with Javik. Unless people had proof otherwise, just 2 drunk people who did stupid things, and Shepard teasing him when they woke up as usual.

Also, iirc they did not even have sex, because they woke up both fully clothed. Not at all caught with their pants down, and shepard was not even seen with just her undies like the usual sex scenes in ME3. Just 2 drunk people falling on their faces on someone's arms.... and probably drooling/puking buckets.

With the flirting? I think Shepard just gave as good as she gets but James can't.

 

Shepard was clearly and constantly the driving force behind the relationship, which means that in a situation of two equally drunk people, she's still the one who'd be charged with rape. Note that Shepard clearly DOESN'T drink throughout the party, as evidenced by... well, her not drinking at any time throughout the party.

 

And they totally had sex, as referenced by their comments in the morning.

 

 

I've frequently been too drunk to drive, and you know what, I've never even tried to drive when I've been like that. Like I said you're 100% responsible for your own actions, drunk or sober. Anything else is just that pathetic "it's always someone else's fault" attitude that so plagues society today because people refuse to be responsible for themselves.

 

Impaired Consent legislation exists for a reason. Not that that's the only thing Shepard's guilty of; there's coercion and abuse of power included in Vega's "romance" as well.