278 réponses à ce sujet

[fraggle]

Note that Shepard clearly DOESN'T drink throughout the party, as evidenced by... well, her not drinking at any time throughout the party.

 

And they totally had sex, as referenced by their comments in the morning.

 

I kinda think this is up to the player if their Shepard will drink or not, no matter if shown or not. Liara says she hasn't seen Shepard drink and Shepard says somebody has to drive all of them home, yet when she sits down next to Cortez Vega tells her to come have a drink (note: Jack is not present in my playthrough or else she would ask Shepard to drink I believe) and she agrees, even though it's never shown.

So does that mean they both encourage each other to drink?

 

I also think they had sex, but since nothing is shown it is totally valid to fill this gap for yourself. If someone just wants them to fall asleep, they can. Maybe they passed out during making out. That can happen.

 

I still think drinking alcohol at all is your own responsibility. If you know you can't handle it, don't drink. Otherwise you should expect from yourself to know what you do. And Vega seems like someone who seems to be quite experienced in drinking alcohol, from what we see during his Purgatory bar scene and banter with Cortez.

[Monica21]

Why would I have his keys?

 

I've frequently been too drunk to drive, and you know what, I've never even tried to drive when I've been like that. Like I said you're 100% responsible for your own actions, drunk or sober. Anything else is just that pathetic "it's always someone else's fault" attitude that so plagues society today because people refuse to be responsible for themselves.

 

Let me restate. Would you let him drive? Would you want someone to let you drive? If a friend told you he didn't think he should drive would you encourage him to do so and tell him it's fine?

 

This isn't about blaming someone for your actions. This is about recognizing when someone does not want to have sex and respecting that. If someone is continually saying "No, don't do that" and the other party continues to do it, that's coercion. Sex feels good. It's easy to think, "this feels good so I don't mind" but the problem is that person is still impaired.

 

Vega did not want to have sex with Shepard and clearly stated that he would have to forget who she is in order to do that. Vega told her that he's still a guy who has urges. He had to be reduced to a state where Shepard isn't much more that boobs and a vagina. She demeaned him and herself in the process, and even calling the one-night stand a "romance" would be laughable if it weren't so sad.

[Xetykins]

Shepard was clearly and constantly the driving force behind the relationship, which means that in a situation of two equally drunk people, she's still the one who'd be charged with rape. Note that Shepard clearly DOESN'T drink throughout the party, as evidenced by... well, her not drinking at any time throughout the party.
 
And they totally had sex, as referenced by their comments in the morning.
 
 

 
Impaired Consent legislation exists for a reason. Not that that's the only thing Shepard's guilty of; there's coercion and abuse of power included in Vega's "romance" as well.

And James only had 1 empty glass throughout.

Also given the things James said to Ashley, some of them even lurid, I'm sure he also raped her at the end of the night. Specially when they have been flirting like mad through out, with James the more aggressive one talking about her "ass"

Need to chill on the rape thing I think, even just out of respect to the real rape victims.

[Monica21]

And James only had 1 empty glass throughout.

Also given the things James said to Ashley, some of them even lurid, I'm sure he also raped her at the end of the night. Specially when they have been flirting like mad through out, with James the more aggressive one talking about her "ass"

Need to chill on the rape thing I think, even just out of respect to the real rape victims.

 

Did James ever say he didn't want to have sex with Ashley? Is Ashley his commanding officer? His conversation that he did not want to have sex with Shepard is the issue here.

 

This is also about knowing what rape is so you can adjust your actions and expectations accordingly. Bioware brought up a very real issue that I don't think they intended. It's coercive and the victim is male. We don't usually blame females for rape. Just look at the former cheerleader who got probation for multiple counts of statutory rape versus Jared Fogle who's definitely going to jail.

[fraggle]

Vega did not want to have sex with Shepard and clearly stated that he would have to forget who she is in order to do that. Vega told her that he's still a guy who has urges. He had to be reduced to a state where Shepard isn't much more that boobs and a vagina.

 

That is not true. He is conflicted the whole time, that does mean he's 50/50 on the sex thing. Implied by "I would need to forget you're the Commander". He does obviously think about it.

And reduced to a state where Shepard isn't more than boobs and a vagina is a bit dramatic. He already sees her as a woman, but as a woman who's also the Commander. He clearly has only a problem that she's his superior.

He says "I'm certainly tempted.", also clearly a sign he hasn't dismissed it.

You said you haven't seen the party scenes. Are you making up all your opinions on what you only heard? If you've seen it in the meantime, then I apologize. But if not, defending an opinion without having seen all the dialogue should not be done imo.

[Monica21]

That is not true. He is conflicted the whole time, that does mean he's 50/50 on the sex thing. Implied by "I would need to forget you're the Commander". He does obviously think about it.

And reduced to a state where Shepard isn't more than boobs and a vagina is a bit dramatic. He already sees her as a woman, but as a woman who's also the Commander. He clearly has only a problem that she's his superior.

He says "I'm certainly tempted.", also clearly a sign he hasn't dismissed it.

You said you haven't seen the party scenes. Are you making up all your opinions on what you only heard? If you've seen it in the meantime, then I apologize. But if not, defending an opinion without having seen all the dialogue should not be done imo.

 

I did watch it. And my opinion is that Shepard crossed the line. It's fact that Vega did not want to have sex with her. Of course he was interested because he's a young guy and likes sex. That doesn't mean he wanted Shepard specifically, and the fact that he said he'd have to "forget" is a huge red flag that should scream, "Don't Do This!" to Shepard.

[Xetykins]

Did James ever say he didn't want to have sex with Ashley? Is Ashley his commanding officer? His conversation that he did not want to have sex with Shepard is the issue here.

Its not even that he did not want to get it on with shepard. He even said " oh lola, I don't have problems seeing you as a woman" So yes maybe after a few drinks, those limitations and inhibitions become non-existent.

Just rediculous that since shepard gave it as much as he gets in terms of flirting, she suddenly became a rapist.
The implication of that is that she's necro sexing james which makes it even more rediculous. As if bioware would even go down that way with their protagonists.

[themikefest]

If Ashley and James are taken to fight the clone, Ashley will make a comment to James about his weights in a flirty way in the elevator

[fraggle]

It's fact that Vega did not want to have sex with her. Of course he was interested because he's a young guy and likes sex. That doesn't mean he wanted Shepard specifically, and the fact that he said he'd have to "forget" is a huge red flag that should scream, "Don't Do This!" to Shepard.

 

I'm sorry, but if he really did not want Shepard, he'd just say. "Sorry Shep, not interested at all". He would make it clear. And not go "I'd need to forget you're Commander Shepard", which to me screams "Hey I would totally go for it, it's just... you're my CO and I have rules about fraternizing and I'm scared to give in to the feeling."

How hard can it really be to be 100% clear that he doesn't want Shepard? Every sentence he spouts implies he wants her, but holds back because of mentioned reasons.

The fact that he stammers when he earlier flirted so marvellous with her and turns red as a tomato when Shepard gets serious with her flirting is enough evidence for me that he has a thing for her.

[Batarian Master Race]

And James only had 1 empty glass throughout.

Also given the things James said to Ashley, some of them even lurid, I'm sure he also raped her at the end of the night. Specially when they have been flirting like mad through out, with James the more aggressive one talking about her "ass"

Need to chill on the rape thing I think, even just out of respect to the real rape victims.

 

Bzzt, wrong. James refers to multiple drinks during a conversation with Shepard, and there are no less than nine bottles next to the bed in the morning.

 

There's a difference between flirting and having sex without someone's consent.

 

Interesting that you bring up real rape victims, though. Because I asked one (who happens to be a friend of mine), and she said that there were no less than three forms of rape in that scene. Coercion, misuse of power, and impaired consent.

 

 

I'm sorry, but if he really did not want Shepard, he'd just say. "Sorry Shep, not interested at all". He would make it clear. And not go "I'd need to forget you're Commander Shepard", which to me screams "Hey I would totally go for it, it's just... you're my CO and I have rules about fraternizing and I'm scared to give in to the feeling."

How hard can it really be to be 100% clear that he doesn't want Shepard? Every sentence he spouts implies he wants her, but holds back because of mentioned reasons.

The fact that he stammers when he earlier flirted so marvellous with her and turns red as a tomato when Shepard gets serious with her flirting is enough evidence for me that he has a thing for her.

For the last time, having a physical or even emotional attraction to someone doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. James clearly enjoys Shepard's body, but he never mentions anything about wanting to consent to sex.*

 

James is conflicted about his feelings throughout. True, he never says no. But consent isn't the absence of a no, and he never says yes either.*

 

*While sober.

[fraggle]

For the last time, having a physical or even emotional attraction to someone doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. James clearly enjoys Shepard's body, but he never mentions anything about wanting to consent to sex.*

 

James is conflicted about his feelings throughout. True, he never says no. But consent isn't the absence of a no, and he never says yes either.*

 

*While sober.

 

Okay, so what does the sentence from Shepard imply: "What would it take to convince you, James?" Friendly dinner? Cuddling? No. It's about sex the whole time, they talk about it prior to that scene in form of James saying he has his needs from time to time. He is sober in this scene. So why do you think he says he would need to forget she's the Commander? Because he doesn't rule it out completely. He may hope she drops the topic, but he could've also straight told her: "Look Shepard, you cannot convince me, please let it go. I don't want you."

Instead he gives her the reason why he is trying to refrain from starting something with her.

 

And let me ask you about the alcohol thing again. Let's assume someone drinks and drives, while fully aware he/she shouldn't drive, but feels like he/she can take it. So then he/she is in a horrible car accident and regrets ever driving while being intoxicated in the first place. Do you blame the alcohol or the person?

[Batarian Master Race]

Okay, so what does the sentence from Shepard imply: "What would it take to convince you, James?" Friendly dinner? Cuddling? No. It's about sex the whole time, they talk about it prior to that scene in form of James saying he has his needs from time to time. He is sober in this scene. So why do you think he says he would need to forget she's the Commander? Because he doesn't rule it out completely. He may hope she drops the topic, but he could've also straight told her: "Look Shepard, you cannot convince me, please let it go. I don't want you."

Instead he gives her the reason why he is trying to refrain from starting something with her.

 

And let me ask you about the alcohol thing again. Let's assume someone drinks and drives, while fully aware he/she shouldn't drive, but feels like he/she can take it. So then he/she is in a horrible car accident and regrets ever driving while being intoxicated in the first place. Do you blame the alcohol or the person?

 

That sentence implies sex. I never said it didn't. And you're missing a major point. James may not have completely ruled out sex with Shepard, but he sure as balls never completely agrees to it.

 

As for the alcohol thing... I blame the person, yes. But it's illegal to drive while you are drunk. It is illegal to have sex with someone else who's drunk. The first example has the drunk person interacting with nobody but themself. The second option involves a second party taking advantage of the first's drunkenness.

 

Let me put it this way. If I walk up to someone who's currently drugged and have them sign away their car to me, who's to blame? Me, for taking advantage of someone's impaired nature for my personal gain? Or them, because they obviously knew what they were getting into?

[fraggle]

That sentence implies sex. I never said it didn't. And you're missing a major point. James may not have completely ruled out sex with Shepard, but he sure as balls never completely agrees to it.

 

As for the alcohol thing... I blame the person, yes. But it's illegal to drive while you are drunk. It is illegal to have sex with someone else who's drunk. The first example has the drunk person interacting with nobody but themself. The second option involves a second party taking advantage of the first's drunkenness.

 

Let me put it this way. If I walk up to someone who's currently drugged and have them sign away their car to me, who's to blame? Me, for taking advantage of someone's impaired nature for my personal gain? Or them, because they obviously knew what they were getting into?

 

Yes, but he also leaves room for it by never saying clearly he doesn't want to. It's 50/50, like I said.

 

It depends how much this person is drugged, I'd say. And if you were previously consuming together.

You know, I could understand were this James's very first time consuming alcohol, but he is clearly experienced with both alcohol and sex. I do not take him for so drunk at the beginning that he doesn't know what he's getting into if he agrees to drink even more. He knows it. "I'm certainly tempted."

As I said before, I do not believe that you are not able to still think for yourself after having downed a few drinks. I know it from personal experience.

If he'd be laying around barely getting out a coherent sentence, and Shepard would somehow drag him away or be able to convince him, then yes, this would be taking advantage, and ultimately rape.

The way it is presented? James is not that drunk in the beginning that he doesn't know what he's getting into. And he is not the only one drunk, Shepard is too. Both are.

But then I heard that it is also against the law in a US state when two drunk people have sex. Which is ridiculous, I'm sorry.

[Batarian Master Race]

Yes, but he also leaves room for it by never saying clearly he doesn't want to. It's 50/50, like I said.

 

It depends how much this person is drugged, I'd say. And if you were previously consuming together.

You know, I could understand were this James's very first time consuming alcohol, but he is clearly experienced with both alcohol and sex. I do not take him for so drunk at the beginning that he doesn't know what he's getting into if he agrees to drink even more. He knows it. "I'm certainly tempted."

As I said before, I do not believe that you are not able to still think for yourself after having downed a few drinks. I know it from personal experience.

If he'd be laying around barely getting out a coherent sentence, and Shepard would somehow drag him away or be able to convince him, then yes, this would be taking advantage, and ultimately rape.

The way it is presented? James is not that drunk in the beginning that he doesn't know what he's getting into. And he is not the only one drunk, Shepard is too. Both are.

But then I heard that it is also against the law in a US state when two drunk people have sex. Which is ridiculous, I'm sorry.

 

Unfortunately, consent doesn't work like a 50/50 rule. If it's not 100%, it might as well be treated as 0%. As I've said before, affirmative consent is necessary, not just the absence of rejection.

 

Whether or not he's "tempted" doesn't affect whether or not he gave consent. And Shepard was clearly coercing him to drink further. "Glad to see you're coming around, James."

 

You should know that alcohol affects everyone differently, and what appears to be a couple drinks may have far more or far less alcohol than a standard drink.

 

And again, you've shown no examples of Shepard being at all drunk.

 

Why is the law ridiculous? If you're unable to think clearly, you're unable to consent to sex.

[Monica21]

Yes, but he also leaves room for it by never saying clearly he doesn't want to. It's 50/50, like I said.

 

This is unequivocally and absolutely still not consent. "Well, yeah, you're hot and stuff" is not consent.

[Dantriges]

It´s against the law in the US to have sex when drunk?   Not making someone wasted deliberately and then having forced sex or (ab)using the opportunity? Oh my, people would go on the barricades if someone tried to implement that here. You could probably arrest half of the population during Fasching or Oktoberfest.

 

To the issue at hand. No problem with alcohol and sex at the same time and the rules about fraternisation within the army are a lot looser over here.* But James doesn´t really look comfortable the whole time and it seems that he isn´t really comfortable with the result and considers it a mistake at least. And oh my, the german VO sounds like a sex hungry Ardat-Yakshi on the hunt, when she´s flirting. So I feel uncomfortable enough with that, to never go that route.  

[Monica21]

It´s against the law in the US to have sex when drunk?   Not making someone wasted deliberately and then having forced sex or (ab)using the opportunity? Oh my, people would go on the barricades if someone tried to implement that here. You could probably arrest half of the population during Fasching or Oktoberfest.

 

To the issue at hand. No problem with alcohol and sex at the same time and the rules about fraternisation within the army are a lot looser over here.* But James doesn´t really look comfortable the whole time and it seems that he isn´t really comfortable with the result and considers it a mistake at least. And oh my, the german VO sounds like a sex hungry Ardat-Yakshi on the hunt, when she´s flirting. So I feel uncomfortable enough with that, to never go that route.  

 

No, it's certainly not against the law to have sex while drunk. The biggest problem is with a first encounter where both parties should be making sure that the other party is actually saying yes. There have also been some rather infamous cases of high school and college girls and women are actually passed out drunk and they have been either sexually assaulted and/or raped.

[Dantriges]

Ah ok, BMR´s post sounded like there is such a law.

[Batarian Master Race]

It varies state by state.

 

Even ignoring alcohol-related rape, Shepard's behavior and repeated badgering of Vega is most definitely coercive and predatory. She literally checks up on the guy to see if he's drunk enough to sleep with her.

[Monica21]

It´s against the law in the US to have sex when drunk?   Not making someone wasted deliberately and then having forced sex or (ab)using the opportunity?

 

It varies state by state.

 

Even ignoring alcohol-related rape, Shepard's behavior and repeated badgering of Vega is most definitely coercive and predatory. She literally checks up on the guy to see if he's drunk enough to sleep with her.

 

Ah, I see. Yes, there are definite legal issues to consider when one party is drunk and the other is not. I thought the question was more of a general question of anyone having sex while drunk. I can't speak to whether both parties are drunk, but that would get quite complicated.

[fraggle]

Unfortunately, consent doesn't work like a 50/50 rule. If it's not 100%, it might as well be treated as 0%. As I've said before, affirmative consent is necessary, not just the absence of rejection.

 

Whether or not he's "tempted" doesn't affect whether or not he gave consent. And Shepard was clearly coercing him to drink further. "Glad to see you're coming around, James."

 

You should know that alcohol affects everyone differently, and what appears to be a couple drinks may have far more or far less alcohol than a standard drink.

 

And again, you've shown no examples of Shepard being at all drunk.

 

Why is the law ridiculous? If you're unable to think clearly, you're unable to consent to sex.

 

I get that this consent stuff is the law for you. But damn, if I couldn't make up my mind before and just see what the night brings, eventually giving in to my desire, then it is what it is. Maybe I'm breaking the law, maybe I regret it in the morning, but I did it because I wanted it at that point. If I need liquid courage, then I do it. I'm sure I'm breaking the law several times a day because I walk across the street while the traffic light is red. And yes, if the police sees it I'm gonna pay for it, but I knew the risk. Same with liquid courage. If I start going down that route, I did it well knowing the consequences. Unless you're only a drooling drunk that can't get out a coherent sentence anymore right before making this decision.

And I do know that alcohol affects everyone differently, but from the game we know that James is certainly no choirboy, quite the contrary. And generally, the more often you drink, the more you're able to consume before feeling its effects.

 

A case where Shepard's drunk? Well, if you either don't start the thing with James, or start the thing with James but don't pursue it later, she will end up with Javik (energetic party only, implying a lot of alcohol is consumed by literally everyone), clearly a case of drunk sex from both parties, which suggests she did some drinking in between. Which would also count for further pursuing James. But then, I also said Shepard doesn't necessarily need to be drunk, or sober, for that matter. It's a matter of how you roleplay her. You can have Shepard drunk, you can have her sober. Depends on the player. After you take the picture, there's a fade to black screen. Anything can happen there, anything the player wants to happen can happen there.

 

Okay, so what if girlfriend and boyfriend down some glasses of wine each, are they drunk according to that law then yet? If yes, are they really breaking the law by having sex after that without confirming if they both actually agree to it? When being a couple? If that's really the case, then sorry, but that is absolute bullsh*t. I don't know the specifics of this law, as I've only heard and read a tiny bit about it, but it sounded as if you could get really in trouble when you're having sex with someone while both consumed alcohol.

 

The problem I have with the way you presented things in here is:

0 alcohol: able to consent

Any amount of alcohol, even if little: unable to consent, because you have the druggy effect in your system already

If that's what you really mean (because it strongly came across like this; if not I'm sorry, then it was a misunderstanding)...

Then this is black and white thinking. There's a lot of gray in between, there are several different stages on how drunk you can be before really not knowing anymore what you're doing and can't make any decent decision anymore.

You said earlier that if James drinks himself into a state where he is unable to consent, then what happens to the point before? The point where he goes along with liquid courage? The point where he clearly isn't as intoxicated as later. Given that he acts on what it would take is consent for me. Or do you have to verbally verify... Hey look, I agree to having sex with you... later. Let me just down these few drinks first, ok?

I know I would say for myself I give my consent by acting on it. I know the score when I go along in order to reach that state I wanna be in to pursue things further.

And as we said before, James is conflicted, yes or no, heart or mind, but ultimately it's a yes because he keeps drinking. Then this is his responsibility. He's an adult, he knows what alcohol does, he could've told Shepard No before, had he really wanted to stop her pursuing him. Seeing as he's definitely not afraid to voice his opinions during the entire game (there are some great examples where he's pissed at her or disagrees with her), so I'm not buying this "Shepard manipulates him with her position of power". James is not intimidated by her like that, he's not afraid to speak up in front of her, or afraid of telling her she made a mistake.

And I'm also just really not buying he is so drunk at the beginning of the party already that he can't say No to her.

 

It´s against the law in the US to have sex when drunk?   Not making someone wasted deliberately and then having forced sex or (ab)using the opportunity? Oh my, people would go on the barricades if someone tried to implement that here. You could probably arrest half of the population during Fasching or Oktoberfest.

 

To the issue at hand. No problem with alcohol and sex at the same time and the rules about fraternisation within the army are a lot looser over here.* But James doesn´t really look comfortable the whole time and it seems that he isn´t really comfortable with the result and considers it a mistake at least. And oh my, the german VO sounds like a sex hungry Ardat-Yakshi on the hunt, when she´s flirting. So I feel uncomfortable enough with that, to never go that route.  

 

Oh haha, a fellow country man? Maybe because our rules are a lot more loose is why I see it so different than the others. I just can't see why both my partner and I can't be drunk and have sex, happily, without ever checking if it's actually okay for both.

 

It's quite clear that James does consider it a mistake, yes. But that happens all the time in real life. I don't see why it can't be shown in a video game. It's not reality anyway. Especially when basically the whole Citadel party is some huge f*ckfest where it seems everybody hooks up with everybody because everybody drinks enough. If we follow the established rules everybody who's drunk and sleeps with someone is not fit to do so. And you honestly can't tell me that this is the case for let's say MShep and Tali, or FemShep and Kaidan when they're in a relationship since ME1 or ME2 in Tali's case. They're all adults. They can act responsible enough if they want to.

 

Honestly, in the end, I think now this is a matter of perception. I said it before that FemSheps flirting IS creepy, there's no doubt about it, and yes, it is handled very clumsily and unfortunate. But given that BW surely did not want this scene to be depicted as rape, in addition to James being no stranger at all to alcohol (it's indicated several times throughout ME3 that that man drinks), I can see it in a way that he can drink quite a lot before he actually can't think for himself anymore. And Shepard approaches him after he asked her to drink with them, too, plus this is at the very beginning of the party. There can't have been so much alcohol in such a short time. Various other characters actually start to sound drunk after 1 or 2 Glyph interactions if you keep the party energetic. Liara, Kaidan, Tali, just to name a few. Grunt sits in the shower at some point, totally wasted. James is normal the whole time, he doesn't sound drunk at all in comparison to the others. And yeah, this might be coincidence, I don't know if the voice actors actually had guidance on how to sound, but I can at least draw a parallel.

 

 

This is my personal interpretation, and you guys have yours. A lot in this game is a matter of perception, how you interpret dialogues, scenes etc. You can headcanon different stuff while other people come up with something else, and I guess that's normal. If I want to see James in a state at the beginning where he still clearly knows what he's doing and he doesn't tell Shepard NO, then I can. It's nowhere confirmed how drunk he is yet. And going from my personal experience, I can justify that. You can still think for yourself when you've consumed some drinks. The word "drunk" can mean a lot. A lot of different stages. We don't know in which state he is, so it can go either way.

 

And btw what I also find so damn weird is that out of all the straight romances for FemShep, only Kaidan's (and maybe Thane's, haven't seen it though) seems natural enough. She's creepy with James and Jacob, from what I heard she's pushy with Garrus, too. If she doesn't pursue James then she ends up with Javik, clearly also regretting their drunken sex...

Maybe FemShep is just generally written that way. No idea why, as it comes across as pretty weird and sad for her character, but at least she's consistent in that. Someone had a real weird thing going on in writing all these "flirty" lines for her.

[Monica21]

Here's the bottom line. If you're the pursuer and you don't know if the person you want to have sex with is able to consent, then don't have sex with that person. Yes, it really is that black and white.

[Batarian Master Race]

Here's the bottom line. If you're the pursuer and you don't know if the person you want to have sex with is able to consent, then don't have sex with that person. Yes, it really is that black and white.

Able and willing.

[Dantriges]

Oh haha, a fellow country man? Maybe because our rules are a lot more loose is why I see it so different than the others. I just can't see why both my partner and I can't be drunk and have sex, happily, without ever checking if it's actually okay for both.

 

Hi.   It´s sad that the german section looks like it´s in a coma.

[Reorte]

Let me restate. Would you let him drive? Would you want someone to let you drive? If a friend told you he didn't think he should drive would you encourage him to do so and tell him it's fine?

 

This isn't about blaming someone for your actions. This is about recognizing when someone does not want to have sex and respecting that. If someone is continually saying "No, don't do that" and the other party continues to do it, that's coercion. Sex feels good. It's easy to think, "this feels good so I don't mind" but the problem is that person is still impaired.

What I would've done is irrelevent since it wouldn't change his responsibility for driving one little bit, so don't try to draw me off on a sideshow. Let me reiterate this - people are responsible for their own actions, drunk or sober, and the consequences. That's all there is to it. Someone who gets drunk and does something they later regret is not a victim of another person's actions. It's not a case of "crash a into someone - criminal, have sex - victim," which would be idiotically inconsistent. Either they are fully reponsible for their actions in both cases or neither, and since I've plenty of experience with being drunk I know what it's like well enough to say the former.

 

Someone capable of talking is capable of consenting, it's that black and white.