47 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Do you think that LI and PC's story should always end in happiness?  

Always? No. A happy ending may not make sense for every combination of LI and PC - different goals, different agendas, different obligations might exist.

It's nice when that possibility for happiness exists, or even if the state of the relationship is left purposely ambiguous enough at a game's end for a player to make his/her own closure to it. And even if the LI dies or departs the scene, the manner in which he/she left, and the state of mind or being that he/she was in when they exited stage left, can be just as satisfying to the overall narrative of the romance (imo).

Ultimately, I prefer story arcs to make sense for the characters involved. So if a happy ending for both parties is not in the cards, I think that's fine. 

[Chiantirose1982]

I would have been pissed if Kaidan would have died in ME3 and I couldn't do anything about it. I was expecting Thane to die, but I thought at least it would be later in the game, not right in the beginning.

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Just feeling a bit bitter that only Femshep get's cheated on or has a LI dying, without her being able to do anything about it. I know the treatment of Miranda/Jack before the Citadel Dlc wasn't that great either, but it's not just men that cheat, women do it too. Just my opinion.

[PinkToolTheater]

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Well maybe Kaidan/Ashley did cheat, but used protection and didn't fall in love. They're not telling you if they did 

[Chiantirose1982]

Hehe, point taken =) Kaidan did go on that date with this doctor, hmmm

[Aurora313]

Kaidan was at least outright with it in his E-mail. And it never went further than a drink.

[Nilfalasiel]

Has anybody here actually tried the Thane romance?

He's not my canon LI, but I do have a Shepard that went for him, and he has a MAJOR character development at the end of ME2 where he explains that he is no longer at peace with the idea of death (unlike a non-romanced Thane). This was retconned in his romance arc in ME3, because, by the writers' own admission, they just forgot about him. This isn't headcanon or wishful thinking: it's hard fact. Combine this ME2 development with hints of a cure/palliative treatment dropped on the CDN, as well as the Facebook campaign to save Thane (which, as I understand was endorsed by BW itself), and the case is no longer as clear-cut as it first appears.

So I don't feel that the "Thanemancers knew what they were in for" argument is entirely fair. They did...in ME2. But considering the teasing that went on in between ME2 and ME3, I feel that they did have grounds to get their hopes up, and that they also have a right to be genuinely upset now.

Do I think that Thane's romance should have involved curing him/prolonging his life? Not necessarily. In fact, had there not been any extraneous hints about a cure/palliative treatment, I would've been perfectly fine with a tragic ending, as per the data that ME2 gives you. It may, however, have been more merciful to his romancers to not actually show his death in-game. Let's not kid ourselves, this isn't Hamlet...and the way Thane's content exists in the game right now (jumping on Kai Leng's sword with Shepard not lifting a finger to help) is, IMO, inferior in quality to making his death an offscreen, postgame event. Back to the matter at hand, considering that hints of a cure/treatment did exist, I don't think death was an inevitable outcome. And if there was never any intention to do anything about these hints, well...they shouldn't have been dropped in the first place.

That being said, I haven't seen Thane's romance-specific content in Citadel yet, so I don't know how much it makes up for the mistakes that were made with his vanilla ME3 romance content. Without Citadel, however, that content is incoherent with ME2, and that's the real problem, rather than the fact that he dies.

Jacob romancers, on the other hand, unquestionably got a sucky deal. There's no way around that. There should have been at least some kind of hint or a warning, if there was not going to be a choice. There was certainly nothing in Jacob's behaviour in ME2 that foreshadowed such an evolution.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 11 mars 2013 - 10:49 .

[Chiantirose1982]

Aurora313 wrote...

Kaidan was at least outright with it in his E-mail. And it never went further than a drink.

Oh yeah, I don't think it went any further. Even if it did, I wouldn't blame him, I mean he thought Shepard was dead for 2 years and he is just human with needs, so...

[o Ventus]

Player choice and actions.

If the player is doing everything "right", they shouldn't be stripped of a romance option just because.

[Village_Idiot]

An idealistic ending is fine, but it has to be one that's earned. If you work your ass off throughout the trilogy to ensure the scenario is the best possible, then the option should exist.

[crimzontearz]

It should be at the very least an option

And enough with the "it's not the ending it's the journey that matters"

[Knight of Dane]

PinkToolTheater wrote...

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Well maybe Kaidan/Ashley did cheat, but used protection and didn't fall in love. They're not telling you if they did 

Even if, I wouldn't call it cheating.

Shepard was kinda dead.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 11 mars 2013 - 02:52 .

[Chiantirose1982]

Knight of Dane wrote...

PinkToolTheater wrote...

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Well maybe Kaidan/Ashley did cheat, but used protection and didn't fall in love. They're not telling you if they did 

Even if, I wouldn't call it cheating.

Shepard was kinda dead.

Yeah, totally agree here. 

Even though I'm a Kaidanmancer and I would have been absolutely pissed about it and hoped there was some way of getting him back, but Kaidan/Ashley moving on, would have made more sense than Jacob. I mean they think Shep is dead for 2 years and then when the VS find out he/she is alive, Shep is working for Cerberus heading into a suicide mission. I dont remember how long ME2 is supposed to be, probably 6 months? Minus the time they worked to reconstruct Shep. And then you still have the 6 months of house arrest in Vancouver, where they obliviously didn't see eachother either, judging by Shep being surprised at their rank. That's over 3 years...
I can't believe I just typed that, wow. The feels...

[garrusfan1]

I like the option for hapiness. that said the thane dying thing I knew was happening and I am still surprised people were surprised they killed him. jacob was a little weird but he wasn't a popular LI so I figured they would not give him alot of time

[Legbiter]

My LI gave Shepard a happy ending.

[nrobbiec]

Knight of Dane wrote...

PinkToolTheater wrote...

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Well maybe Kaidan/Ashley did cheat, but used protection and didn't fall in love. They're not telling you if they did 

Even if, I wouldn't call it cheating.

Shepard was kinda dead.

Kaidan hints at not being with anyone, he had a drink with a doctor but nothing happened with him, then he mentions not seeing anyone and asking Shepard if he's ever known him to be with anyone. I think Kaidan waited for him.

[Chiantirose1982]

nrobbiec wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

PinkToolTheater wrote...

Chiantirose1982 wrote...

Jacob? Kinda lame how they turned him around. I mean Kaidan/Ashley can be faithful for 2+ years, but Jacob can't keep it in his pants for 6 months? Oh please...

Well maybe Kaidan/Ashley did cheat, but used protection and didn't fall in love. They're not telling you if they did 

Even if, I wouldn't call it cheating.

Shepard was kinda dead.

Kaidan hints at not being with anyone, he had a drink with a doctor but nothing happened with him, then he mentions not seeing anyone and asking Shepard if he's ever known him to be with anyone. I think Kaidan waited for him.

That's not really the point.

I think what was meant is "IF" Kaidan would have had something with the doctor, then it wouldn't really be cheating, seeing as he thought Shepard was dead. Obviously, he didn't have anything going on, as he said so in the hospital and he is a pretty honest guy, imo.

[DecCylonus]

I think it is a good thing to be able to lose LIs, especially when player choice is involved. I am a Miranda-mancer, and I liked that she could die if I screwed up in ME2 or 3. I would have liked to be more involved with her in 3, especially on Horizon, but that's a separate issue.

I do think that those who romanced Thane should have expected a tragic ending. There was no foreshadowing of hope for a cure. Bioware could have handled his role in ME3 and his death better though.

I also like the unhappy end outside of player control, because it reflects reality. However, FemShep really gets the shaft on romances in the series. She has fewer choices to begin with, and two are taken away with no player input. For that reason I think Jacob cheating was a bad choice. It would have been better if his romance was handled more like Miranda's: if the player doesn't do X, Y, and Z, he cheats. Also, his cheating was out of left field and a nasty surprise waiting in the middle of a mission.

[CronoDragoon]

It depends on the type of story. If you establish a "Song of Ice and Fire" tone from the beginning then feel free to end my romance unhappily.

Telling a story is about fulfilling promises you make at the beginning of your story. If you promise that the player can determines outcomes then stick with that. If you promise that bad crap can happen to any character then stick with that.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 mars 2013 - 04:06 .

[mr.brightside4u]

In Jacobs case I think it's pretty cool, because it shows that it's not about Shepard every goddamn time and people move on and live their live. I probably have no right to say so though, since I got my happy end "love-story".

[Chiantirose1982]

mr.brightside4u wrote...

In Jacobs case I think it's pretty cool, because it shows that it's not about Shepard every goddamn time and people move on and live their live. I probably have no right to say so though, since I got my happy end "love-story".

Unless your broshep, than the females can't resist your charm and would never move on. If you have to add drama to your game, do it fairly to both sides.

[Raikas]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Do you think that LI and PC's story should always end in happiness?

I think it's more interesting when they don't, but it needs to be done properly - I don't mind an unavoidable unhappy ending, but it needs to be well done to work. To be fair, I didn't play the Jacob or Thane ones (although I thought the non-romanced version of Thane's worked really well), but I did let a romanced Miranda die and I thought that was very well done (and the drunk Tali scene makes more sense if she dies as well).

[CptData]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Do you think that LI and PC's story should always end in happiness? There were a lot of outrage over Thane's death and Jacob's cheating. also supposed that Miranda would get killed no matter what, that probably wouldn't have gone well with the fans. Some like it because it added a level of realism; however, for those who were a fan of them, they felt very cheated because other people were able to continue the story with their LIs while they're not. 

Difficult - well, no.

Actually, I think it should be one of those decisions the player does instead of the developers. So it should be the player who decides if the PC's LI finds a happy ending - or a sad one. Either way, a romance arc needs its closure and shouldn't leave any questions left.

Interestingly, the ME series have such decisions, and, more important, they were free of any impact on your moralty score. However, only few romance plots are affected by the player. I go through the romance arcs with the most branches, which are the ones for Ashley and Kaidan.

Kaidan / Ashley romance arc
A/K can be romanced in ME1.
A/K can end in ME1 if you leave your LI with the bomb on Virmire. (Sad Ending)
A/K can end in ME1 if you decide for Liara in that love triangle scene. (Sad Ending)
A/K can find a conclusion in ME1. (Happy Ending, Shepard's room)
A/K can be re- or newly romanced in ME3.
A/K can end in ME3, if you moved on to a LI in ME2/3 and don't rekindle that old LI (Sad Ending)
A/K can end violently in ME3, if you let Kaidan / Ashley die in the coup (Sad Ending)
A/K can find a conclusion in ME3. (Happy Ending, before final mission)
A/K can find a second conclusion in ME3. (Sad / Semi-Sad Ending, Epilogue)

Also, the following romance arcs have multiple conclusions:

Miranda's arc
Conclusion in ME3 - death on Horizon, either via break up or not giving her needed intel
Conclusion in ME3 - love scene in Citadel DLC
Keep in mind Miranda's romance arc never had a full conclusion without that DLC

Tali's arc
Conclusion in ME2 - death while doing the Suicide Mission
Conclusion in ME3 - breaking up
Conclusion in ME3 - death by suicide
Conclusion in ME3 - romantic climax prior final mission

Garrus' arc
Conclusion in ME2 - death while doing the Suicide Mission
Conclusion in ME3 - breaking up
Conclusion in ME3 - romantic climax prior final mission

Well, you ALSO can find at least one romantic arc with only ONE real outcome, no matter what you do, and that's the one for ...

Thane's arc
Conclusion in ME2 - death while doing the Suicide Mission
Conclusion in ME3 - death by plot

No matter what you do, Thane is going to die, while most (but not all) other romances know a happy and a sad ending. Well, we all know about Morinth, do we?

[Wulfram]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thane's death was fine. Those who romanced Thane knew from day one what they were in for, and if they really thought things wouldn't end as he told you in your first encounter (!!!) they don't know how stories work. Complain about how it was basically forgotten that he was an LI in ME3 and I'm with you, but his death was fine.

Jacob's cheating, however, was a bad surprise, with the way it was sprung on the player without any kind of foreshadowing. It may add a level of realism, but it isn't fair to the player. If such things happen, it should add to the story. It should happen for an interesting reason and not just because Bioware doesn't want to spend the resources to create romance content for the least popular LI. Also, the cheating was made more galling because we didn't have a way to react appropriately. 

Pretty much this.