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[BjornDaDwarf]

stysiaq wrote...

@BjornDaDwarf

Look at InvaderNemesis post. He basically just posted his lack of interest in reading a really insightful post.

Now THAT is typical BSN.

AQ wrote a 2100+ word screed (that is unfinished) that can be summed up as:

"Poison Strike is a subpar power in terms of damage, detonation and utlity that is outlcassed by Biotic Charge. Its DoT can negated or rendered useless by multiple enemies and the speed of high level play. The mobility of PS is equaled by the classes inherent dodge, further rendering the power less valuable."

53 words, same message.

I don't blaim anyone for not reading that. It's overly long and not particularly well argued (which English is not AQ's first language, to be fair, but if you're going to post unfinished 2100 word essays on the BSN, you're going to get what's coming to you).

AQ goes on to ignore the bonuses of the class. Nightshade blades, Biotic Focus, melee, incredible mobility, and strong weapons passives. In 2100 words, AQ couldn't find anything particularly good to say about a class he has supposedly spent more than 400 waves with. That parks the post squarely in the complain/whine parking lot.

Poison Strike isn't the greatest power in the game. But the Cabal is a fun, active unique class with multiple benefits that supports multiple builds and playstyles. That is what every class should strive to be! Too many classes (particularly Vanguards) tend to be one trick ponies that have one or two optimal builds and simply rinse and repeat the same 2-3 actions ad nauseum.  

AQ makes some good points, but really, if you're going to cover a class.  Cover it.  Don't post 2100 word unfinished essays that don't address the positives of a class.  And learn to edit.

[stysiaq]

okay, okay, I just tried to be a smart-ass. Sorry to everyone involved ;-). No hard feelings Nemesis.

[BjornDaDwarf]

stysiaq wrote...

okay, okay, I just tried to be a smart-ass. Sorry to everyone involved ;-). No hard feelings Nemesis.

I was being a smart*ss in my first post, which I have been trying not to be like around here.  Figured I should follow up with why I actually think the OP can be safely dismissed as lacking value.

[Drunkencelt]

I don't want another melee character.

I don't want another Turian weapons platform.

I want a power based build.

1. Poison strike needs a major buff
2. Nightshade blades are too buggy. The frontloaded damage rarely hits.
3. Biotic focus is too weak. Needs 50 base 100% evo.

You also incorrectly state poison strike has immunity frames. The melee and poison strike both do not. You can be staggered/stunned during the animations.

[Lucius Aelius]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...
AQ wrote a 2100+ word screed (that is unfinished) that can be summed up as:

"Poison Strike is a subpar power in terms of damage, detonation and utlity that is outlcassed by Biotic Charge. Its DoT can negated or rendered useless by multiple enemies and the speed of high level play. The mobility of PS is equaled by the classes inherent dodge, further rendering the power less valuable."
53 words, same message.

I don't blaim anyone for not reading that. It's overly long and not particularly well argued (which English is not AQ's first language, to be fair, but if you're going to post unfinished 2100 word essays on the BSN, you're going to get what's coming to you).

AQ goes on to ignore the bonuses of the class. Nightshade blades, Biotic Focus, melee, incredible mobility, and strong weapons passives. In 2100 words, AQ couldn't find anything particularly good to say about a class he has supposedly spent more than 400 waves with. That parks the post squarely in the complain/whine parking lot.

Poison Strike isn't the greatest power in the game. But the Cabal is a fun, active unique class with multiple benefits that supports multiple builds and playstyles. That is what every class should strive to be! Too many classes (particularly Vanguards) tend to be one trick ponies that have one or two optimal builds and simply rinse and repeat the same 2-3 actions ad nauseum.  
AQ makes some good points, but really, if you're going to cover a class.  Cover it.  Don't post 2100 word unfinished essays that don't address the positives of a class.  And learn to edit.

Thanks for the summary, honestly I didn't read it either (though I did skim it).

Modifié par Lucius Aelius, 11 mars 2013 - 04:54 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

Air Quotes wrote...

I didn't finish my post yet. And 2100 words are there for a reason to cover every detail. If you don't wanna read - don't read.  

It clearly says - post in progress. Moron. 

 

Personal insults.  Continuing the BSN class.  

So people aren't supposed to discuss or critique the post you chose to make public?  We aren't supposed to point out the flaws or holes in it?  No one is supposed to give their opinions on the class until you have deigned to give us the next 2100 words of your Cabal epic?  

[Lucius Aelius]

Yeah I have to say that while I may disagree with some of what Air Quotes is saying, he shouldn't have to be subjected to abuse for posting (even a wall of text, which it was entitled as being in the first place so should not have been a surprise or thing of note). This is a Forum after all, just because most discussions on BSN rarely call for in-depth posts doesn't mean all discussions should stand as such.

A tl;dr would have been helpful though, as would have been waiting until the post was finished before submitting.

[VaultingFrog]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

I didn't finish my post yet. And 2100 words are there for a reason to cover every detail. If you don't wanna read - don't read.  

It clearly says - post in progress. Moron. 

 

Personal insults.  Continuing the BSN class.  

So people aren't supposed to discuss or critique the post you chose to make public?  We aren't supposed to point out the flaws or holes in it?  No one is supposed to give their opinions on the class until you have deigned to give us the next 2100 words of your Cabal epic?  

Way to troll....

[BjornDaDwarf]

Lucius Aelius wrote...

Yeah I have to say that while I may disagree with some of what Air Quotes is saying, he shouldn't have to be subjected to abuse for posting (even a wall of text, which it was entitled as being in the first place so should not have been a surprise or thing of note). This is a Forum after all, just because most discussions on BSN rarely call for in-depth posts doesn't mean all discussions should stand as such.

A tl;dr would have been helpful though, as would have been waiting until the post was finished before submitting.

If I come off as abusive, I apologize to both AQ and anyone else who felt slighted or uncomfortable.  I really wanted to make two points, which may have come off with more vitriol than I intended:

1.  The Cabal is a fun, active unique class with multiple benefits that supports multiple builds and playstyles. That is what every class should strive to be! Too many classes (particularly Vanguards) tend to be one trick ponies that have one or two optimal builds and simply rinse and repeat the same 2-3 actions ad nauseum. 

2.  Don't post unfinished essays, you're begging for threads to go off course.  You can save it and finish it later.  It will lead to far fewer misunderstandings and people can fight/bicker about what's actually in the OP, rather than what isn't.

[Zero132132]

You should specifically say that Poison Strike needs a buff. Your entire discussion revolves around it. You basically admit that the Cabal is a good character, she just needs to have that one move be better.

[UEG Donkey]

Air Quotes wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

I didn't finish my post yet. And 2100 words are there for a reason to cover every detail. If you don't wanna read - don't read.  

It clearly says - post in progress. Moron. 

 

Personal insults.  Continuing the BSN class.  

So people aren't supposed to discuss or critique the post you chose to make public?  We aren't supposed to point out the flaws or holes in it?  No one is supposed to give their opinions on the class until you have deigned to give us the next 2100 words of your Cabal epic?  

 

You didn't give any opinions. You're just jumping to your own conclusions without reading or waiting till the post is finished. So STFU about your BSN class okay? 

To be fair, he did give an opinion that the class is dynamic and there's multiple ways to spec and play the character.  Personally I spec mine 4/6/6/6/4 http://narida.pytalh...a10AA1AA1/////  And run it as a unique CQC Weapons specialist.

Also is there  a consensus on Heightened Focus versus Shield Boost?  I've never really found SB to be that good of an option because it doesn't retore shield gates.  Looking for feedback on that. 

[Fortack]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

AQ goes on to ignore the bonuses of the class. Nightshade blades, Biotic Focus, melee, incredible mobility, and strong weapons passives. In 2100 words, AQ couldn't find anything particularly good to say about a class he has supposedly spent more than 400 waves with. That parks the post squarely in the complain/whine parking lot.

1. NBlades are the weakest nades in the game - not mentioning off-host nonsense, poor range and poor AoE.

2. Cabal needs to spam BF all day long to get Drell movement speed, the shield regen is poor AND requires putting 21 points in the skill + you cannot take the other rank 6 evo to boost melee which is the only good thing this kit has. That doesn't make any sense to me.

3. LOL, you really think a 10% passive weapon damage bonus means something? All kits with either a biotic primer, a debuff, or weapon damage bonuses laugh at the pathetic Cabal weapon damage. Again, not mentioning that to use her real strength - melee - means you cannot use weapon damage boosting gear. Any kit who takes a level 3 weapon amp has more weapon damage than the Cabal with a strength enhancer.

[MP-Ryan]

It's a strange day when I agree with AQ, but I guess today is a strange day.

Preface: I play all the vanguards. I play the novaguard and slayer primarily on host and they are my go-to characters. I can solo gold with both of these character and probably Platinum if I had the patience.

The Cabal has problems.

Yes, she is mobile, her melee is amazing, teleporting is awesome, and her passives are excellent. But her poison powers don't synergize as well as they should.

Poison strike is a mobility and escape power that does little damage, and isn't reliable in application. Oh, and it suffers as much off host as Biotic Charge.

Taking more than 4 points in nightshade blades is currently pointless. They do virtually no damage to armour, and every unarmoured enemy in the game is just as hurt by 4 ranks as they are at 6.

Biotic Focus may be spammable, but it's nowhere near as reliable as biotic charge and the fact that it doesn't reset at least one gate cooldown makes it useless as a survival button... Unlike Charge. Oh, and it's i-frame doesn't work off host, and appears to scale based on gameplay speed.

Net result: Every other vanguard does it better. I've spent 7 respecs on her, and she's fun, but the Cabal's one advantage over other vanguards is her passive, and that is made up for by the power damage or survivability of the other vanguards.

Poison strike is only redeemable with a patch. Too bad, but I don't thin damage buffs can turn it from an escape power into a damage dealer.

Likewise, Nightshade blades should have an armour modifier. Need a patch for that.

Biotic focus needs a base shield restore of 25 percent, upped to 75 by the 6a evolution, or a base damage reduction of 20 percent.

All of her powers need buffs. Teleport isn't reliable on all maps and is slow off host. Her only real shining aspects are melee and passives.

TL;DR: The other vanguards are better synergized. At this point, I can pretty confidently say that I could take a novaguard (and I am not the best novaguard in the game by a long shot) into gold and likely even platinum and outscore and out-perform (teamplay-wise) any Cabal off host.

She needs some balancing attention.

[ryoldschool]

I am also confused by this discussion, and sadly, two posters that I respect a lot got into it ( BjornDaDwarf and air Quotes ), so hopefully we are past that.

The sixth evolution of Biotic Focus - ped takes 6b for melee damage, but Air Quotes and others are saying 6a ( unfortunately the nardia class builder is missing the description for that evolution ).

I'd be interested in more posters comments on BF.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Fortack wrote...

1. NBlades are the weakest nades in the game - not mentioning off-host nonsense, poor range and poor AoE.

2. Cabal needs to spam BF all day long to get Drell movement speed, the shield regen is poor AND requires putting 21 points in the skill + you cannot take the other rank 6 evo to boost melee which is the only good thing this kit has. That doesn't make any sense to me.

3. LOL, you really think a 10% passive weapon damage bonus means something? All kits with either a biotic primer, a debuff, or weapon damage bonuses laugh at the pathetic Cabal weapon damage. Again, not mentioning that to use her real strength - melee - means you cannot use weapon damage boosting gear. Any kit who takes a level 3 weapon amp has more weapon damage than the Cabal with a strength enhancer.

1.  Maybe I've been lucky, but Nightshade blades have been nothing but a roflstompingly good time for me.  

2.  BF has a duration of 15-20 seconds.  You don't need to spam it all day, just every 20ish seconds or so.

3.  If you're taking a weapon damage build (which is a legitimate option, not everyone likes melee), then yes, 37.5 percent weapon damage, 30 percent headshot and stability bonuses matter.  

I love the melee build, but I'm not going to insist that it's the only option.  It's not.  

[megawug]

Her mobility makes her fun to play. But so far for me, PS's area of effect is too small. It should at least be as wide as electric/biotic slash.

[capn233]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

1.  Maybe I've been lucky, but Nightshade blades have been nothing but a roflstompingly good time for me.  

2.  BF has a duration of 15-20 seconds.  You don't need to spam it all day, just every 20ish seconds or so.

3.  If you're taking a weapon damage build (which is a legitimate option, not everyone likes melee), then yes, 37.5 percent weapon damage, 30 percent headshot and stability bonuses matter.  

I love the melee build, but I'm not going to insist that it's the only option.  It's not.  

1. They do a lot of damage if you score hits.  Sometimes that is a questionable proposition.  Many times it isn't.  Saying they are the worst grenade power... that may or may not be true but that is mainly because most grenades are predicatable and overpowered.
2. You do need to spam it all day for several of the builds to work decent.  But I agree with another post that the shield boost evolution is nice in critical times for the brief immunity it grants (at least on host...)
3. Her passive is pretty good.  But she really doesn't stand up as a weapon damage class to any of the actual weapon damage classes.  That is logical considering her melee and dodge though.

[Lucius Aelius]

capn233 wrote...
1. They do a lot of damage if you score hits.  Sometimes that is a questionable proposition.  Many times it isn't.  Saying they are the worst grenade power... that may or may not be true but that is mainly because most grenades are predicatable and overpowered.
2. You do need to spam it all day for several of the builds to work decent.  But I agree with another post that the shield boost evolution is nice in critical times for the brief immunity it grants (at least on host...)
3. Her passive is pretty good.  But she really doesn't stand up as a weapon damage class to any of the actual weapon damage classes.  That is logical considering her melee and dodge though.

In regards to #3 (and your previous post), obviously she can't compete in raw weapon DPS. I singled out the PPR as I did because it uniquely has a 4x damage ramp-up of 2 seconds, which means even on a "non-weapon class" you are richly rewarded for maintaining that charged up beam. Add that to the AR weight reduction and subsequent low cooldown on Biotic Focus, and the Cabal as a weapons platform with the PPR definitely works.

Also she makes up for low DPS with enhanced survivability and mobility, a fair trade IMO.

Modifié par Lucius Aelius, 11 mars 2013 - 06:51 .

[UEG Donkey]

Air Quotes wrote...

Biotic Shield is a much better option. Because if timed right you can ignore the initial damage completely.(such as Warp ball or first Ravager shot) Boosting your shields means you protect your shieldgate and win 1-2 more extra hits before enemy reaches it. You can cancel DOT with it. So that means you can eat Swarmers or recover quickly after Atlas rocket, Scion shot or Banshee Warp.  You can cast it when being charged by a Brute and ignore his melee. You can cast it just before getting sync-killed by a Phantom and live. 

You can Poison Strike with Double Dash and immediately BF, for shield boost, improving your survivability much more than DR and a little more speed. Especially on higher difficulties. 

I've played the kit well on Plat with the 4/6/6/6/4 build focusing on mobility on CQC weapon damage.  I haven't soloed it with a BW like you have but it seems like you could have done that solo with any kit plus the BW.  If you aren't using PS that often it probably makes sense to use Shield Evo but I do PS (alot actually)  it really helps with flanking.  I like using BF once every 20 seconds not once every four seconds.  But if you aren't PSing Then taking the shield option makes sense, I suppose.

Lucius Aelius wrote...

obviously she can't compete in raw weapon DPS. . . . .
Also she makes up for low DPS with enhanced survivability and mobility, a fair trade IMO.

She can compete with the mobile CQC DPS crowd (The Drellguard and Asariguard) .  She's more agile and more forgiving than both and neither of the others have her stability.  I usually rock him/her with the Wraith/Reegar but she can easily control the Pirhana. 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 11 mars 2013 - 06:56 .

[Xariann]

Air Quotes, interesting post. I agree completely on Poison Strike.

I am curious to read your next thing about melee. I see a lot of people really like her melee specced but I found her lackluster, since her melee damage is diluted in the poison dot once again, and I can't even decapitate abominations to stop them from blowing up in my face, with the poison dot to compound the issue as they WILL blow up in your face eventually.