182 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortack]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

1.  Maybe I've been lucky, but Nightshade blades have been nothing but a roflstompingly good time for me.  

2.  BF has a duration of 15-20 seconds.  You don't need to spam it all day, just every 20ish seconds or so.

3.  If you're taking a weapon damage build (which is a legitimate option, not everyone likes melee), then yes, 37.5 percent weapon damage, 30 percent headshot and stability bonuses matter.  

I love the melee build, but I'm not going to insist that it's the only option.  It's not.

1. N-Blades are really bad off-host while all other grenade powers work fine except for the occasional waving at enemies only crap Most other grenades also have more utility in that you can throw them around corners or on the floor for example. IMO N-Blades don't deal enough damage (esp against armor) considering the risk required to deploy them properly. Taking more risks should have better rewards.

2. Well, yes and no. The Cabal doesn't have anything else to do most of the time and since BF only regens 40% of her barrier you'll need to spam it to get her barrier up at full strength. Besides, BF doesn't have an animation so it won't interrupt shooting anyway. Having said that, for those who pick the other final BF evo there isn't anything else to do for 20 seconds, except PS which usually does more harm than good.

3. If the Cabal had something the other Turian kits have it would be really good. The Sentinel has Warp thus gets a 1.15 damage multiplier + warp ammo bonus. The Soldier has P-Mines + Marksman, the Havoc can use Cryo Blast for a 1.25 multiplier + a 25% weapon damage bonus for using Havoc Strike. I won't go into the Ghost but I think you get the point.

All other Vanguards have access to weapon synergy in the Charge tree which nets higher weapon damage than the Cabal gets from her passive. She simply doesn't have enough weapon damage to compete with 2/3 of the other kits out there. That's bad for a Turian, no?

Furthermore, the Cabal lacks an easy and quickly executable stagger (great for CC and easy (head)shots). She has nothing to prime anything for combos, her only detonator is by far the worst one in the entire game, her DoT is negliglible, and she lacks a debuffer > making her one of the worst "teamwork" kits in the game.

[Vlainstrike]

Agree with op 100%, as well as all the other posts explaining why this class needs certain buffs. Fun class, but definitely needs some love.

[EvoSigma]

I just want poison strike to have SOME force behind it. I don't care about the damage, I don't care about the range, or the DoT. I just want to stagger a phantom IN THE VERY LEAST where I don't have to depend upon a limited stock of nades to do the job. Having the hits actually register on an enemy would also be nice...

Modifié par EvoSigma, 11 mars 2013 - 08:45 .

[kouzrah]

I'm surprised but I read all of OP. It was well written and I agree that PS could use a buff.

[GHOST OF FRUITY]

I have to agree with the op. I love the Cabal, but she could do with some adjustments. She's very dependent on the grenade box, and even then the nightshade blades are a little hit and miss.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Fortack wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

1.  Maybe I've been lucky, but Nightshade blades have been nothing but a roflstompingly good time for me.  

2.  BF has a duration of 15-20 seconds.  You don't need to spam it all day, just every 20ish seconds or so.

3.  If you're taking a weapon damage build (which is a legitimate option, not everyone likes melee), then yes, 37.5 percent weapon damage, 30 percent headshot and stability bonuses matter.  

I love the melee build, but I'm not going to insist that it's the only option.  It's not.

1. N-Blades are really bad off-host while all other grenade powers work fine except for the occasional waving at enemies only crap Most other grenades also have more utility in that you can throw them around corners or on the floor for example. IMO N-Blades don't deal enough damage (esp against armor) considering the risk required to deploy them properly. Taking more risks should have better rewards.

2. Well, yes and no. The Cabal doesn't have anything else to do most of the time and since BF only regens 40% of her barrier you'll need to spam it to get her barrier up at full strength. Besides, BF doesn't have an animation so it won't interrupt shooting anyway. Having said that, for those who pick the other final BF evo there isn't anything else to do for 20 seconds, except PS which usually does more harm than good.

3. If the Cabal had something the other Turian kits have it would be really good. The Sentinel has Warp thus gets a 1.15 damage multiplier + warp ammo bonus. The Soldier has P-Mines + Marksman, the Havoc can use Cryo Blast for a 1.25 multiplier + a 25% weapon damage bonus for using Havoc Strike. I won't go into the Ghost but I think you get the point.

All other Vanguards have access to weapon synergy in the Charge tree which nets higher weapon damage than the Cabal gets from her passive. She simply doesn't have enough weapon damage to compete with 2/3 of the other kits out there. That's bad for a Turian, no?

Furthermore, the Cabal lacks an easy and quickly executable stagger (great for CC and easy (head)shots). She has nothing to prime anything for combos, her only detonator is by far the worst one in the entire game, her DoT is negliglible, and she lacks a debuffer > making her one of the worst "teamwork" kits in the game.

I've only played a few games off-host, and certainly noticed the delay in melee, but not with Blades.  But as I said, I may have been lucky. 

Ghost and Havoc, interestingly, don't get the same Turian passives.  They have less damage and headshot (and that Headshot modifier is the real gem of the original Turian and Drell passives).  True, the original Turians have better weapon powers and debuffs, but she's got mobility.  Imagine for a moment that she had a debuff like Warp.  That would go a long ways towards invalidating a ton of original TSent builds.  Or if she had a weapon boosting power that was even half as good as Marksman.  

I would suspect that they intentionally avoided giving her those types of powers, and instead gave her the melee boosts to provide variety among the Turians.  If she had any combination of debuff/stagger/weapons boosting powers, plus the original Turian passives, plus awesome mobility, what role would the poor no-dodge original Turian males have?

Like I said earlier, I think AQ brought up some legitimate critiques (though I obviously disagreed with how he went about it).  The Cabal is not a perfect class.  But I find it a fun, diverse, active and effective class.  

[UEG Donkey]

Air Quotes wrote...

UEG Donkey wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...


And I guarantee you - biotic Shield will come in handy MUCH MUCH more often then a bit of speed and DR.

Using BF primarily as a shield boost will tie up your cooldown and that's fine if that's the way you want to play.  DR on your build is probably not as good as it doesn't take 4 or 6 points in fitness and to get the most from DR you need more sheilds. Shield Boost doesn't retore shield gate and at least to me, gave me a false sense of security.  I understand your point about BF negating DOT attacks like warp and Atlas rockets but should you really be getting hit by those attacks anyway?  When I get downed its usually a Geth Turret or something across the map that I didn't notice. 

 

If I see my shields dropping I can insta BF and protect my shieldgate. I stood in front of Cerberus turrets and that quick boost of shields + inviframes saved my life a lot of times. Even 40% DR will not do that. I traded shots with Collector Captains and Marauders face to face just by timing my BF. 

For me - Botic Shield is a no brainer. 

You've raised a good point that you use BF to protect your shield gate.  That makes more sense than restoring shields after you've been gated but with only put 3 points into fitness and minimal DR you've got to have much more situational awareness than I do. I can't count how many times I've been gated by a Prime that throws a turret behind me.  

I'd rather have an effective 1700 shields (because I'm bad I suppose) and be free to PS 95% of the time than have 1150 shields and a 400 point shield boost that doesn't restore gates and ties up cd to maintain your shields. 

Modifié par UEG Donkey, 11 mars 2013 - 09:07 .

[january42]

I would add that here melee ability is killed by the stupid notion that 30% of the melee is poison damage. If they got rid of that, she could be a decent melee char at least.  If your meleeing something....it needs to die.

Much like Havok Strike, Poison Strike needs a huge buff to be worth using.   The DOT should proably be buffed to be equivilent of Reave at least.  Those are both direct powers,  that are ranged and they also prime, while Poison Strike doesn't.  

I know I eventually decided that I would rather have the top level of nightshade blades than 3 in Poison Strike as a utility movement power.   Part of the problem is the whole teleporting thing is just way to difficult to control.

In ME4  I would implement it like this:  It would work a bit like TC.  When activated, you go into "ghost" mode, where you are invulnerable and walk through walls(and enemies).   You then have, say 5 seconds to move around, pass through guys and poison them.  At the end of that time you re-appear. If you cancel it early, you get a cooldown bonus.  Basicly, it would be the same thing, but give you a chance to steer it. 

Modifié par january42, 11 mars 2013 - 09:43 .

[CSRB]

Very convincing argument, OP.

Buff the Cabal, BioWare!

[Wolf610]

Air Quotes wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Fortack wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

1.  Maybe I've been lucky, but Nightshade blades have been nothing but a roflstompingly good time for me.  

2.  BF has a duration of 15-20 seconds.  You don't need to spam it all day, just every 20ish seconds or so.

3.  If you're taking a weapon damage build (which is a legitimate option, not everyone likes melee), then yes, 37.5 percent weapon damage, 30 percent headshot and stability bonuses matter.  

I love the melee build, but I'm not going to insist that it's the only option.  It's not.

1. N-Blades are really bad off-host while all other grenade powers work fine except for the occasional waving at enemies only crap Most other grenades also have more utility in that you can throw them around corners or on the floor for example. IMO N-Blades don't deal enough damage (esp against armor) considering the risk required to deploy them properly. Taking more risks should have better rewards.

2. Well, yes and no. The Cabal doesn't have anything else to do most of the time and since BF only regens 40% of her barrier you'll need to spam it to get her barrier up at full strength. Besides, BF doesn't have an animation so it won't interrupt shooting anyway. Having said that, for those who pick the other final BF evo there isn't anything else to do for 20 seconds, except PS which usually does more harm than good.

3. If the Cabal had something the other Turian kits have it would be really good. The Sentinel has Warp thus gets a 1.15 damage multiplier + warp ammo bonus. The Soldier has P-Mines + Marksman, the Havoc can use Cryo Blast for a 1.25 multiplier + a 25% weapon damage bonus for using Havoc Strike. I won't go into the Ghost but I think you get the point.

All other Vanguards have access to weapon synergy in the Charge tree which nets higher weapon damage than the Cabal gets from her passive. She simply doesn't have enough weapon damage to compete with 2/3 of the other kits out there. That's bad for a Turian, no?

Furthermore, the Cabal lacks an easy and quickly executable stagger (great for CC and easy (head)shots). She has nothing to prime anything for combos, her only detonator is by far the worst one in the entire game, her DoT is negliglible, and she lacks a debuffer > making her one of the worst "teamwork" kits in the game.

I've only played a few games off-host, and certainly noticed the delay in melee, but not with Blades.  But as I said, I may have been lucky. 

Ghost and Havoc, interestingly, don't get the same Turian passives.  They have less damage and headshot (and that Headshot modifier is the real gem of the original Turian and Drell passives).  True, the original Turians have better weapon powers and debuffs, but she's got mobility.  Imagine for a moment that she had a debuff like Warp.  That would go a long ways towards invalidating a ton of original TSent builds.  Or if she had a weapon boosting power that was even half as good as Marksman.  

I would suspect that they intentionally avoided giving her those types of powers, and instead gave her the melee boosts to provide variety among the Turians.  If she had any combination of debuff/stagger/weapons boosting powers, plus the original Turian passives, plus awesome mobility, what role would the poor no-dodge original Turian males have?

Like I said earlier, I think AQ brought up some legitimate critiques (though I obviously disagreed with how he went about it).  The Cabal is not a perfect class.  But I find it a fun, diverse, active and effective class.  

 

I find in fun, diverse, active and quite effective too. But if majority of people skip or gimp her Vanguard power - Poison Strike that means something is wrong with it. That means they don't play as Vanguards. And that's what this post is about. 

Cabal is not a Vanguard. And no, melee is not Vanguarding. Or else all melee characters should be called Vanguards. 

A vanguard is a close quarters weapons platform with biotic abilities. Being a vanguard does NOT mean they require biotic charge, and poison strike does not need to be some cheap imitation. I'm enjoying playing as her as it's a bit of a throwback to ME1 vanguards who didn't have biotic charge and so had to plan how they ran in and shotgunned everything. It requires more thinking and situational awareness to keep her alive and she's damn fun to use when you can teleport in a room, paralyze a bunch of enemies or stun them with NB, shred them with melee or a shotgun, and teleport out.

This is why I made that post earlier, you're complaining about her abilities not working the way YOU want them to, as opposed to focusing on the big problems with her, you know, the bugs. Poison strike does have hit detection issues that need fixing, if you use Biotic focus to restore shields the screen blur stacks, her heavy melee will from time to time cause the camera to shoot upwards, and nightshade blades don't always deal their upfront damage even when right in an enemies face, lets see how many of those you addressed shall we:

1. Biotic Focus base duration - up to 20-25 seconds from 12. Now you
spam it to keep it up all the time, that kills the CD for Poison Strike
and you end up playing a Havoc Soldier rather than a CQC Vanguard.  

2.
Nightshade Blade base capacity up by 2 - Nighshades are nowhere near as
good as say Lift Grenades or Arc Grenades. You have to be in the line
of fire to use them and the enemy has to be in the open to recieve
damage. And you can't use them out of low cover. 

3. Nightshade Blade DOT up by 25% (not really necessary)

4. Poison Strike DOT damage doubled or more (MANDATORY) + Up-front damage 25 %.

5. Poison Strike base range - 16-18 meters up from 12.

Nope, not one is mentioned, this topic is a thinnly veiled buff the Cabal cause she's not easy to use thread. I WILL agree with your first point, Biotic Focus needs a duration boost, but other than that, fix the bugs and she'll be fine. Just because she doesn't have biotic charge doesn't mean she's not a vanguard, It just means she requires a different playstyle.

[megabeast37215]

Air Quotes: You refuse to use the Acolyte... that's why you think Poison Strike sucks. Swallow you're "herp a derp it's a n00b/crutch weapon" mentality... rock an Acolyte with Incendiary ammo, and stop spewing this mindless Stardusk drek about how Poison Strike can't kill anything.

Pretty much agree with the rest of what you wrote.

[Asebstos]

peddroelmz wrote...

best melee char in the game /thread

build

Melee Cabal is both super-fun and super-effective.

[krknight]

just went through the whole thread. for the most part, it sounds like everyone would be happy if her poison dot was buffed. every build type would benefit if all of her poison-inducing aspects could kill mid-levels over time and significantly damage bosses (which i feel is her biggest weakness).

fixing the bugs would be nice, but everyone knows that's less likely to happen. it wouldn't take much to buff her dot though.

[etm125]

Thumbs up, OP. I'll spec into PS when it's worth my while. Til then I'm fine with her being an extremely mobile light/medium weapon platform. I think it's a bit of an interesting twist to separate her charge from her shield regeneration.

Nightshade blades: I don't understand everyone's gripe with these. They're exactly like the ballistic blades animation and nobody seemed to care about that wind up. They stagger almost every time for me. The only issue I have is the paltry damage they offer on armor. I could be remembering incorrectly but I seem to remember ballistic blades eating armor a lot better. The main use I have for them is AoE stagger and keeping shields from regenning in solos. If they were bugged and intended for more damage I would love her even more.

[ReddWolfwood1]

Try using her with the geth sensor. This way you wont be surprised by what is on the otherside of a wall

[me0120]

Air Quotes wrote...


3. Remove the target cap or double it. 3 enemies affected by PS is way too low. The target # needs to be unlimited or much highter, so every little thing you strike trough gets affected.  

   Reason - has no force, you have to turn around. Players will only feel confident in PS, if they know that if they go trough those 3 Marauders with PS, they will die in 8 seconds from DOT and not shoot them in the back or just regen their shields and come haunt them later in the game. They need to know that if they PS a Banhee, she will take some damage instead of laughing in your face. 

Or they won't spec into it.   

4. Increase base range to 16-18 meters. 


 

First, Poison Strike has no target cap. It is relatively easy to test with a line of Swarmers. The problem is actually Poison Strike has a Range-Damage Cap. That is the real problem and keep you from damaging all enemies outside of, I think, a 6m range. Increase that and It'll be much better.

Second, a base range of 16-18 meters is ridiculous if they leave the option of increased range on 4a, which we both know they have to. 10m should be fine IF the Range-Damage Cap is increased with the base range. 


Overall good read. I do have to say that this plays a lot more like a ME1 Vanguard than any other Vanguard and the current selection of Vanguards should give you all you need of the new Vanguard playstyle.

[tamfa]

Off host this is the kit has more glitches than any other one I've played. I've tried to PS into open space and just sat there while mashing the key. I've fallen through floors (dagger central tower) into a batch of enemies to get blasted. I've blinked between locations while trying to run.. I've had the blades do no noticeable damage to enemies. Dodge hasn't dodged, etc. Over all this kit has been more frustration than fun.

[megabeast37215]

Air Quotes wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

Air Quotes: You refuse to use the Acolyte... that's why you think Poison Strike sucks. Swallow you're "herp a derp it's a n00b/crutch weapon" mentality... rock an Acolyte with Incendiary ammo, and stop spewing this mindless Stardusk drek about how Poison Strike can't kill anything.

Pretty much agree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

If I have to use this POS for the class to work, then the class sucks. 

It allows for both Charge AND Poison Strike to OSK shielded mooks... that's amazing utility.

Your position is quite frankly... pretty ignorant my friend. You're allowing your bias against a weapon to cloud your judgement.

Perhaps... with all the negative press BSN has been giving Poison Strike... it might get a buff before all the balance changes are said and done with.... even though PS outdamages Charge significantly...

[Commander Castillo]

Just stopped by to look at the avatar...........K I'll be going now