216 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Rawgrim wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

DA3 is going to be changing art styles again, from what little we know. They mentioned the Elves specially as somewhere between DA:O and DA2 . . . which makes me wonder if that's the direction of the larger question mark hovering over the overall art style.

hhh89 wrote...

Hawke had indeed a role in the mage-templar
conflict. He was the one (along with Varric in Act 2 and 2) responsible
of keeping Anders safe from Meredith and the templars, so that he could
destroy the Chantry. and trigger a world-class conflict.

I swear I knew he was up to no good, and was screaming for the dialogue option to just plain kill the abombination like I'd been wanting to since I met him. I just didn't like Anders in the first place though.

Indeed. And no matter if you do his quest or not, the chantry still gets blown up. Hawke was just a bystander to events he could not affect at all.

Your choices matter! None of them matter.

[The Elder King]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Justice wasn't that moderate in DAA, though. It shown no mercy to those it thought need to be punished, and was ruthless. The negative emotions of Anders made him more extreme, arriving at the point of attacking a person it (and Anders) should protect.
Of course, Justice's corruption in DA2 because of Anders's emotions (along with their merging) wasn't necessary, and it's not a thing I particulary like. The problem isn't the results of the merging (which is what it should've happened, considering Anders's negative emotions. It would have made no sense if Anders's emotion didn't corrupt Justice), but the merging itself. If there are people that are able to merge with a spirit without corrupting the spirit, Anders wasn't one of those.

[grumpymooselion]

Rawgrim wrote...

Janan Pacha wrote...

DA3 is going to be changing art styles again, from what little we know. They mentioned the Elves specially as somewhere between DA:O and DA2 . . . which makes me wonder if that's the direction of the larger question mark hovering over the overall art style.

hhh89 wrote...

Hawke had indeed a role in the mage-templar
conflict. He was the one (along with Varric in Act 2 and 2) responsible
of keeping Anders safe from Meredith and the templars, so that he could
destroy the Chantry. and trigger a world-class conflict.

I swear I knew he was up to no good, and was screaming for the dialogue option to just plain kill the abombination like I'd been wanting to since I met him. I just didn't like Anders in the first place though.

Indeed. And no matter if you do his quest or not, the chantry still gets blown up. Hawke was just a bystander to events he could not affect at all.

Hawke could have say in plenty of things, that had different results. Just one example out of many is Isabela and the Qunari. You have two options if she runs off with the relic. If your actions over the course of the game convinced her to return with the relic, however, you get additional options to turn her in or fight to prevent them taking her. In addition you still have the base difference of these endings based on whether you duel the Arishok or get in an all out fight.

There are things you have effect on. Anders going behind your back and blowing up the chantry? It wasn't one of them. And that is frustrating. However, given what little we know of DA3, I think we all know why they weren't going to let you prevent it, and it had nothing to do with Hawke not having options in the game outside of that. Is Carver Dead? Is he a Warden? is he a Templar? Is Bethany Dead a Warden or taken by the Templars and placed in the Circle?  What does Merrill do with the Mirror? Do you give her the tool the Keeper entrusts to you? How does it turn out? These and many more present potential choices consequences and outcomes.

DA2's epilogue is based on quite a few variables that you can effect, and the epilogue from one character to another can be considerably different. It's especially impressive if you consider the very tiny amount of time DA2 was given to develop compared to DA:O which was in the making for far, far longer.

-

Of course doing the quest, or not, still results in the Chantry getting blown up. He just found someone else to do what he asked of Hawke. The failing wasn't in that, it was in not allowing you to actively prevent it, but, that's not even a question - DA3 was obviously somewhat planned out already, and they actively wanted this exact detail to be the spark that set it off. That one thing being out of your control, when many other variables were wholly in your control, is not nearly as big a deal as people make it.

Yes, it could have been handled better but it would have required time that the game was not being given, for what little time it was given and the pressure the developers were under . . . it turned out surprisingly good.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 12 mars 2013 - 06:34 .

[Steppenwolf]

Janan Pacha wrote...

[snip]
There's quite a lot to it, more than I even brought up - far more - so that even this little bit is substantial, and you're claiming none of it was there . . . it just sounds like you have blinders on.

Your biggest example of depth that I'm not seeing is something that the game didn't even actually do. And the rest is all meaningless because it plays no role in the rest of the game. 95% of the things Hawke can do throughout the game are never brought up again, making them all sidequests. The entire point of Act I was getting some scratch. Everything that happened along the way aside from recruiting Anders and helping that shady dwarf is just fluff. Act II was all about dealing with the Qunari. It was a self-contained act that had no impact on the rest of the game aside from sidequests. It wasn't a bad act. It was the best part of the game IMO. But it was just a short story set in the middle of a video game. Act III was all about the conflict between the Templars and the mages. But the whole act is pointless because it ends the same way no matter what you do. Things that could and should have had an impact on that final act, such as the half-elf dream-mage(if he's alive and with the Dalish) or Orsino's connection with Quentin, are just ignored and you're forced into 2 nonsensical confrontations no matter what you choose.
"I side with the mages! I'm with you Orsino!"
"Well I'm gonna go crazy now, 'kay?"
or
"The Templars are right! I side with Meredith!"
"Well I'm gonna go crazy now, 'kay?"

Rushed development or not, they knew how long they had to make the game but chose to plant seeds that never bore fruit and chose to make the game end nonsesnically because they wanted another boss fight(true story).

[EpicBoot2daFace]

hhh89 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...


I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Justice wasn't that moderate in DAA, though. It shown no mercy to those it thought need to be punished, and was ruthless. The negative emotions of Anders made him more extreme, arriving at the point of attacking a person it (and Anders) should protect.
Of course, Justice's corruption in DA2 because of Anders's emotions (along with their merging) wasn't necessary, and it's not a thing I particulary like. The problem isn't the results of the merging (which is what it should've happened, considering Anders's negative emotions. It would have made no sense if Anders's emotion didn't corrupt Justice), but the merging itself. If there are people that are able to merge with a spirit without corrupting the spirit, Anders wasn't one of those.

I thought Justice was one of the more interesting characters from Awakening. It was interesting to watch him try to adapt to the mortal world. It's usually the other way around, mortal being thrown into the fade or something for extended periods of time. So, that was a nice switch. In DA2, he's just a vengeful spirit with no personality or anything. Ruined.

Anders was cool in Awakening. He was a well written character and sorta reminded me of Alistair. In DA2, his charater was completely ruined. He became nothing but an annoying mage who would never shut up about his hatred for the chantry and the templars, and would always manage to find a way to take any situation and make it about him and other mages being repressed.

Like I've said before, I cannot believe that the Origins team was involved in the development of DA2. It boggles the mind.

[grumpymooselion]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Your biggest example of depth that I'm not seeing is something that the game didn't even actually do.

It didn't do the thing I mentioned it did?

And the rest is all meaningless because it plays no role in the rest of the game. 95% of the things Hawke can do throughout the game are never brought up again,

Most of the things Hawke did were brought up repeatedly. The majority of the side quests I did in act 1 showed up again in 2 and 3 to continue on. That's a far cry from never being mentioned again. I had people in act three coming after me because of things I'd done in act 1. Had ownership of a mine from act 1 and dealt with that concept further in act 2 and act 3. I'm sorry, but your:

And the rest is all meaningless because it plays no role in
the rest of the game. 95% of the things Hawke can do throughout the game
are never brought up again,

Seems to be based more on, "it was all meaningless and never mentioned again because I say it was meaningless and never mentioned again" when I can think of plenty of things that stayed with Hawke throughout the game and developed as the acts went on.

I'm not going to justify the rest of the post with a response, it all seems to be built around the mindset that everything needs to be part of a single central narrative, and that everything else is 'fluff' and . . . I'm sorry, but that's not how life is, and it's never been something I've found to be a good thing in storytelling. I liked that the majority of the content Hawke tackled wasn't built around a single central line, and instead was made up of many different storylines you could pick up, drop or ignore at your liesure based on your vision of how Hawke should act and what s/he should or shouldn't and would or wouldn't do.

[Steppenwolf]

You're equating sidequests to actual story. The mine is a sidequest that happens across 3 acts.

[grumpymooselion]

BasilKarlo wrote...

You're equating sidequests to actual story. The mine is a sidequest that happens across 3 acts.

"It's not story because I say it's not."


It's story, it was a part of the character and they made choices surrounding it. You could ignore it, yes. You could take part in it, yes. All legitimate options that were part of your definition of who Hawke was and what they would do. The sidequests are part of the character's story, and, given the premise of DA2, are actually more important to Hawke as a character than longer story threads like the Mage/Templar conflict. Hawke as a character was just trying to make their fortune, in many ways it would have made more sense for them to not take part in the Mage/Templar and Qunari conflicts, and instead spend more time developing a business, like thier investment in the mine.

As such, given that you get to do both things, and more, it's actually better and richer for the efforts. Calling them sidequests doesn't cause them not to be character and story elements of importance. Important to an overall plot? No. But you know what? They don't have to be. That's snobbish writing 101 that eveyrthing has to be 100% relevant to a central plot and it has no place in a game, especially an RPG where you have choices and are defining the character for yourself.

[Yrkoon]

Janan Pacha wrote...


DA2's epilogue is based on quite a few variables that you can effect, and the epilogue from one character to another can be considerably different.

Wait...  DA2 had an epilogue?


And here I thought all it had was some silly cliff hanger where Cassanda releases Varric, then goes out and tells Lelianna  that Hawk is missing.     Then Lelianna responding with:  Lets put our trust in the Maker.   ::::Roll credits::::

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 mars 2013 - 12:41 .

[hazarkazra]

I feel like the way DA2 dealt with expressions was a lot better, making for some pretty funny scenes were characters were able to express emotions simple through non-verbal communication. I also felt like Origins characters suffered too much from a death stare and the characters walked uncomfortably close to the uncanny valley. The DA2 characters by taking back a notice seemed to act better and feel more 'alive'. I have played both on the xbox and looking at youtube movies the PC movie seems to have less of these problems.

While I would pick the Origin style if they could pull it off well, if they are not able to improve upon it due to hardware limitations I rather they stick to the more stylized DA2.

[unbentbuzzkill]

if you have to ask...........

[Saibh]

I honestly didn't think it looked cartoony at all. It had more visual identity than DAO, but it wasn't particularly cartoony.

And I thought that DAII had the best CC for a male character in any BioWare game. I couldn't make any DAO men that looked like people that didn't somehow resemble Alistair.

Modifié par Saibh, 13 mars 2013 - 01:00 .

[stormhit]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Becoming an abomination will do that.

[Steppenwolf]

stormhit13 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Becoming an abomination will do that.

He was an Abomination in Awakening. And his character was becoming more human and less rigid throughout Awakening because of the influence of his human host. Suddenly becoming Vengeance just because Anders is angsty makes very little sense. Especially when you consider that Wynne, a very willful and powerful mage, didn't make the spirit inhabiting her morph into an evil, exaggerated form of itself.

[MerchantGOL]

BasilKarlo wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Becoming an abomination will do that.

He was an Abomination in Awakening. And his character was becoming more human and less rigid throughout Awakening because of the influence of his human host. Suddenly becoming Vengeance just because Anders is angsty makes very little sense. Especially when you consider that Wynne, a very willful and powerful mage, didn't make the spirit inhabiting her morph into an evil, exaggerated form of itself.

Wynne was old wise and tempred

Anders was young, angry and foolish

wynnes spirit was calm and docile

Justice had a rigid code that he would follow no matter up

you see the diffrence don't you?

[Plaintiff]

BasilKarlo wrote...

stormhit13 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I hate what they did to Justice. They completely ruined his character along with Anders.

Becoming an abomination will do that.

He was an Abomination in Awakening. And his character was becoming more human and less rigid throughout Awakening because of the influence of his human host. Suddenly becoming Vengeance just because Anders is angsty makes very little sense. Especially when you consider that Wynne, a very willful and powerful mage, didn't make the spirit inhabiting her morph into an evil, exaggerated form of itself.

I dunno. It's highly possible that she warped it into a demon of self-righteous nagging.

[New Display Name]

I think the combat animations were kind of cool, but felt too overboard and cartoonish for the universe in my opinion. Needs less jumping at least.

Other than that, I mostly prefer DA2 to DA:O.

[Bummlmitz2]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
I thought Justice was one of the more interesting characters from Awakening. It was interesting to watch him try to adapt to the mortal world. It's usually the other way around, mortal being thrown into the fade or something for extended periods of time. So, that was a nice switch. In DA2, he's just a vengeful spirit with no personality or anything. Ruined.

Anders was cool in Awakening. He was a well written character and sorta reminded me of Alistair. In DA2, his charater was completely ruined. He became nothing but an annoying mage who would never shut up about his hatred for the chantry and the templars, and would always manage to find a way to take any situation and make it about him and other mages being repressed.

Like I've said before, I cannot believe that the Origins team was involved in the development of DA2. It boggles the mind.

Exactly.

[Dutchess]

Janan Pacha wrote...

I had people in act three coming after me because of things I'd done in act 1. Had ownership of a mine from act 1 and dealt with that concept further in act 2 and act 3. I'm sorry, but your:

Who came after you? Please don't say crazy Grace and her goons, because that was one of the many things that made no sense at all when you helped her escape in act 1. "Ooh, thank you, thank you, thank you! Here, take my staff. Thank you!" And in act 3: "Kill the hostage! Kill the Champion! Kill, kill kill!" Sigh.

[grumpymooselion]

Yrkoon wrote...
Wait...  DA2 had an epilogue?:

Did you even play the game?

renjility wrote...
Who came after you?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie] Please
don't say crazy Grace and her goons, because that was one of the many
things that made no sense at all when you helped her escape in act 1.
"Ooh, thank you, thank you, thank you! Here, take my staff. Thank you!"
And in act 3: "Kill the hostage! Kill the Champion! Kill, kill kill!"
Sigh.

I can think of quite a few instances where  things from earlier acts came back later, anything from mercenaries I'd
crossed in an earlier coming for me in a later act to the interactions with Carver in Act 2 and Act 3 if he lived. There really is no lack of things that have long standing results you can take part in. The particular instance I was talking about was the mercenary leader I'd made grumpy by killing his men earlier. He ambushes you outside the city in act 3.

Still, those are just two examples of things that have long standing results. There are more. I can mention Carver, the Mine, the Dreamer and the Mercenaries as examples but they're just examples. They aren't "all there is" . . .

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 13 mars 2013 - 03:16 .

[Deebo305]

I not sure if half the people on BSN were high when they played DA2 but as I have and both games I can tell that DAO is an ugly game. Aside from maybe Morrigan everyone else looks rather stiff,rigid,bland, and don't get me started on those horbid beards and hair braid that everyone has. DA2 looks better for tons of reasons and if u had a problem with making a handsome male Hawke then you clearly have some odd mental disorder or just hate human characters in general because its ridiculously easy to make one

[grumpymooselion]

Seeing her concept art, and her look in the Trailer (as well as the Trailer version and concept art of most things for DA:O) I always wondered what happened. The DA:O trailer's characters looked great, and their concept art iterations looked great . . . and then the in game characters barely resembled them. It wasn't even a matter of graphical limitations, not even for the time, because we've seen better transitions between concept art/trailer art and in game art than that prior, during and since DA:O's release.

[Blazomancer]

Deebo305 wrote...
I not sure if half the people on BSN were high when they played DA2......

Why are you unsure about exactly half? Why not 1/4 or 3/4, or say 2π/7?

[Deebo305]

Not sure why they all look so different from the sacred ashes trailer, always found that to be odd

[Kidd]

BasilKarlo wrote...

you're forced into 2 nonsensical confrontations no matter what you choose.
"I side with the mages! I'm with you Orsino!"
"Well I'm gonna go crazy now, 'kay?"
or
"The Templars are right! I side with Meredith!"
"Well I'm gonna go crazy now, 'kay?"

I never had a problem with this one, myself. If you're joining the templars, Orsino is obviously out to get you. And if you're a mage yourself, he tries to empower himself to fight the templars yet ends up losing his mind in the process. I always found the battle with him pretty tragic when I sided with the mages.

"This is the bullcrap those damned templars force us to do..." -- Kidd, beating on Harvester-Orsino

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 13 mars 2013 - 05:01 .