180 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am going to copy paste what I said in the other thread, about this marriage, before I go off to uni:

"If Cailan was planning on marrying an Orlesian nobility, then maybe that would have been a political alliance. But the Empress? Seriously? That would basically mean that Orlais and Ferelden are ruled by the same crown. Even if Ferelden had a very strong King, such a feat will automatically result in Ferelden becoming a vassal state to Orlais. Add the fact that Cailan is an idiot, while Empress Celene is a political mastermind and genius. If Cailan was being played with by Anora, a simple peasant girl, what chance does he have with Celene, described as being  like Catherine the Great? He would have been even more of a puppet.

This wasn't an alliance. This was a fusion between a superpower like Orlais and a backward nation like Ferelden. Who do you honestly think is going to dominate?
Orlais has a larger population.
Orlais has a stronger economy.
Orlais has a larger military.
Orlais has a stronger nobility, while Ferelden has nobility that consortede with Orlais once.
Orlais has religion at its side, being the most important nation for the Chantry. This is similar to Charlemagne's French Empire where he too controlled the papacy, thus had considerable influence over Western Europe.
Orlais has the stronger, better ruler.
It doesn't take a political genius to see that Ferelden is basically being offered on a silver platter by Cailan to Orlais. **** whiped imbecile.

It make sense now why Cailan refused to listen to Loghain and insisted on Orlesian reinforcements. If Orlais saves Ferelden from the blight, the marriage would gain alot more legitimacy. Because as it stands, no one would have approved of it.
Cailan had to die. There is no question about that. He clearly has lost his so called mind."

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:07 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
No. I disagree. We learn in game that if anything, people are LESS free and more subservient in Orlais than Ferelden. The Chevalier can do whatever they like to the common folk, including taking women by force, where as commoners in Ferelden do have legal rights in comparison. Elves, for that matter, are worse off in Orlais.

Cailan is not gaining an empire. The guy is a weakling idiot whose strings are being pulled by his wife. The Orlesian Empress? He might as well hand the country right over, because Cailan wouldn't be the one calling the shots, that's for damned sure. Ferelden would indeed return to Orlesian hands, something that most people in Ferelden simply do not want.

Given that we have no idea what deal Cailan and Celene had, it's impossible to tell.
Exactly how each coutnry would be run, and by which rules is entirely up to debate. Wihout knowing that, you cannot really claim Cailan is a idiot and that Ferelden would be DOOOOMED.

[SurelyForth]

I thought Eamon was a manipulative piece of filth from the moment Alistair tells you about his childhood and I resented having to both save him and his family AND be his political muscle before the Landsmeet. This is why, if Alistair is on the throne, my PC is Chancellor.



As for what you discover at Ostagar changing how one might feel about Loghain, it only justifies what he did to Cailan and, to a lesser extent, Eamon. The Wardens were only doing their duty at Ostagar and should not have been left for dead nor blamed for what happened, to say nothing of the crimes he allowed Howe to commit.

[Costin_Razvan]

If you missed the comment however, the honor guard says the battle could not have been won. Furthermore David G says that "If Loghain thought he could have won the battle he would have tried, no matter what."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Vicious wrote...

To think that anybody would imagine that Cailan was smart enough to think he'd gain anything from marrying the genius-empress of Orlais when his own wife Anora was RUNNING the kingdom because he wasn't smart enough to, is, well... wow. just wow.

That, or he's actually a genius only pretending to be easily manipulated, so he can marry his way into Orlais and grab pwoer himself. Or something entirely different.

Say, DAvid. Can you shed some light on this. Was Cailan an utter moron?

[Maximus741000]

Does anyone konw when the PC version of RtO is being released?

[Sabriana]

Cailan was a childish and stupid man. It is made plain throughout the game itself that Anora is the true power behind the throne.

My PC knew immediately that Cailan was worthless as a general and as a king, fit only to be the puppet-king. Fereldens pretty and shiny figurehead. She said to Duncan that she thinks the king is a fool right after meeting him.

The Empress would be no match for Cailan, he'd be powerless against her. Orlais has a bigger army, a smart and politically well versed ruler, and a better economy. Ferelden would have nothing to counter Orlais with, after all, they occupied the country before, and were driven out by Loghain and the rebellion only 30 years ago.

Ferelden was a helpless victim of Orlais for 80+ years before that. The odds that Ferelden could maintain its integrity and freedom are very, very slim to none. Especially with a weakling such as Cailan looking out for her interests. Especially because Cailan's interest is Cailan.

[AntiChri5]

Cailan might as well have had "idiot" tattooed on his face.

[Freckles04]

I haven't taken Loghain through RtO yet, but I hope to do so tonight or tomorrow. I'm eager to see his reaction to it. I ran it before I got Wynne from the Tower, so I haven't heard her reactions, either.

I have to say, the content of the Cailan's documents surprised me. I love how BioWare ordered them: 1 - a polite missive stating that military forces from Orlais are available to help; 2 - a concerned letter from Eamon that suggests that Cailan needs to think seriously about having an heir, and if Anora can't provide it, maybe it's time to find someone else; and 3 - a note written in a familiar tone from the Empress to Cailan that suggests a fair amount. Nice build-up to the reveal of Cailan's apparent relationship with the Empress.

I found Alistair's reaction to the letters intriguing: "It looks like we should have trusted the Orlesian forces more than Cailan's father-in-law." Trust them to help with the Blight? Yes, I can see that. But I don't for a minute think that Celene (and oh God, is that a reference to Celene Dion? BioWare = Canadian, Celene Dion = Canadian...) was dallying with Cailan because of love. By all evidence, she's a political mastermind. She obviously has a respect for Ferelden that her predecessors didn't (as detailed in the Codex entry she supposedly wrote about the country), but that doesn't mean she doesn't have the desire to possess it. She's just being a hell of a lot smarter about it. The previous emperors tried to subjugate Ferelden for nearly 100 years, and it was a constant struggle and ultimate failure. However, she had the opportunity presented to her to conquer Ferelden peacefully, through marriage to its idealistic, naive King. She would be able to succeed at the task her father and possibly grandfather had failed at doing.

As other posters have said, there is no way in hell that Cailan and Celene would be equals. As Eamon points out, Anora had Cailan wrapped around her finger, and Anora is nowhere near the political genius Celene is purported to be. Cailan was interested only in being the hero to his own epic story, and had severe delusions of grandeur about his ability to be a good king. Perhaps Celene would allow Cailan to think they were equals, but he was far too naive to see the manipulation she would no doubt be doing behind the scenes.

Based on all of this, I now completely understand why Loghain did what he did. Here was Cailan, the son of his best friend and the woman he really loved, about to hand Ferelden back to the Orlesians without so much as a sword drawn. That, in his mind, would be the ultimate betrayal. The hurt and shame it would cause Anora was a secondary consideration, I think, though I imagine it was a slight Loghain wouldn't forget (and I'll know more about this when I bring Logain to Ostagar, I expect). And it wouldn't even be something they could fight this time, since the merger would be legal. There would be no invasion to push back, no forces to throw out of Ferelden. If Cailan were to go ahead and do this, there would be nothing Ferelden's nobility could do to undo it, short of desposing the King/Emperor/Empress. That would lead to civil war, but with the Orlesians already within Ferelden's borders, there would be no getting them out. Cailan marrying Celene would destroy Ferelden and strengthen Orlais.

Loghain saw this. He and Maric had already agreed that Ferelden was more important than a single man, even if he was the King (in The Stolen Throne). So, Loghain planned for Cailan's death, all the while hoping it would not come to be. However, I think that if Cailan had somehow survived Ostagar, he would have met his death on the way back to Denerim. What Cailan had planned was not something Loghain could allow to pass.

[flagondotcom]

Shavon wrote...

You know, a bizarre thing happened to me while fighting the risen ogre, which in itself is worth returning. Alistair and my PC delivered the death blow at the same time, and the animation was awesome. Well, my Pc disappeared part of the way through, but that was the most insanely cool glitch I have ever scene.

I'll take another look, however. It's definitely worth playing again.

I think the part of the game that decides who will perform the slo-mo killing blows is running with an independent thread for each PC/NPC in the party...because I've seen this happen on dragons as well.  Looks like a race condition where two characters both decide "I'm it" but don't set the "I'm taking the shot" flag in time...

[Maximus741000]

Is no one going to answer my previous question? Or will I have to avert my eyes at every other spoiler post?



But back on topic (I might as well go most of the way), does anyone think that Maric would have wanted his best friend to murder his son, many soldiers and grey wardens of Ferelden, just because of some minor misplace in trust? Do you think he would have approved of what happened at Ostagar to ensure that Orlais would not threaten the kingdom?

[Sabriana]

@ Maximus



No, not even Bioware seems to know when the pc version is ready for release. Or they're keeping us in the dark on principle. But seriously, there seems to be a problem with the DLC for the pc.



About the Maric thing you ask, there is far more to it, it seems. You would have to read the RtO threads and get heavy spoilers in the process.

Aside from that, it was Maric who made Loghain swear an oath that he (Loghain) would never allow even one man's actions to make it possible for Orlais to conquer Ferelden again.

[Maximus741000]

@Sabriana, thank you for the clarification. I was beginning to wonder if somehow one of the consoles had it released early.

As for the Maric argument, I suppose there's more to this than I know. I should not pursue this until I know it better.

[AdorableAnarchist]

Grandchamp1989 wrote...

''I was dissapointed when I gave to Alistair this ritual chalice (as I remember) expected that he ll start some conversation about my first ritual or atleast some comment and that he ll mention maybe Jory and Daveth whateve and he was just like +5 "Oh is that for meee?!" bla bla...''

Good point Xalena. Felt the exact same way. They could've done more with that.

As soon as I picked up the chalice, I told my husband "Oooo, this is gong to be an awesome cut scene...."

"Oh, is that for me," asks Alistair...

What? No cut scene. Le sigh. And I had my tissues all ready too.

But, I did like the content, just wish there had been more story interactions.

[andcus]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you missed the comment however, the honor guard says the battle could not have been won. Furthermore David G says that "If Loghain thought he could have won the battle he would have tried, no matter what."

Im sure four legions of Chevaliers and the Orlesian Grey Wardens would have made a difference.

[Vicious]

That, or he's actually a genius only pretending to be easily manipulated, so he can marry his way into Orlais and grab pwoer himself. Or something entirely different.

LOL. just LOL. You're reaaaaaallly reaching there.


That said, Eamon was egging the whole thing on. Apparently Cailan resisted the idea of leaving Anora somewhat. That said, it's a medieval setting, so of course it must be Anora's fault that she can't conceive. [lol]

Im sure four legions of Chevaliers and the Orlesian Grey Wardens would have made a difference. 

They didn't make it in time. Did you play the same game I did? The battle was lost loooong before they were able to enter the equation.

Modifié par Vicious, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:18 .

[Ulicus]

It'd be kind of cool if he was right, though. Anora says Cailan could have been a minstrel for a band of players... what if he was the first true Ferelden Bard?

[Sabriana]

You know, that always made little sense to me. Cailan was perfectly willing to wait for the Orlesian troops, but he couldn't be bothered to wait for the Redcliffe forces? What am I missing here? Redcliffe was closer to Ostagar than the Orlasian border by far. Unless the Orleasian's were ready and waiting close by? But that's not really possible either.

[andcus]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, that always made little sense to me. Cailan was perfectly willing to wait for the Orlesian troops, but he couldn't be bothered to wait for the Redcliffe forces? What am I missing here? Redcliffe was closer to Ostagar than the Orlasian border by far. Unless the Orleasian's were ready and waiting close by? But that's not really possible either.

I guess the negotiations for Orlesian support was going on some time before he marched his armies out of Denerim

[Ulicus]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, that always made little sense to me. Cailan was perfectly willing to wait for the Orlesian troops, but he couldn't be bothered to wait for the Redcliffe forces? What am I missing here? Redcliffe was closer to Ostagar than the Orlasian border by far. Unless the Orleasian's were ready and waiting close by? But that's not really possible either.

It seems more about threatening Loghain into compliance. Cailan wanted to fight that battle then and there. Duncan makes it pretty clear that even he'd rather not be fighting the battle tomorrow at all but that the King has no desire to wait for Orlais.

Duncan: He thinks our legend alone blah blah...
Warden: What would you have him do?
Duncan: Wait for reinforcements from the Grey Wardens of Orlais

[Freckles04]

Sabriana wrote...

You know, that always made little sense to me. Cailan was perfectly willing to wait for the Orlesian troops, but he couldn't be bothered to wait for the Redcliffe forces? What am I missing here? Redcliffe was closer to Ostagar than the Orlasian border by far. Unless the Orleasian's were ready and waiting close by? But that's not really possible either.

Maybe he was peeved at his uncle for his suggestion to dump Anora and wanted to prove he was right in one thing, anyway?

Maybe the forces Eamon could provide were so small as to be unimportant, whereas Orlais' contribution was much greater?

Or maybe Cailan didn't really want to wait for the Orlesians, either. Duncan says at the beginning that he wants Cailan to wait (if you ask him what he thinks the king should do), but he won't. I think the mention of the Orlesians to Loghain at the battle council is just to rile up his father-in-law into agreeing to the course of action that Cailan believes will lead to the most glory.

EDIT: Uh...what the above poster said.

Modifié par Freckles04, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:40 .

[Sabriana]

True, he could very well just be tweaking Loghain's nose. Otherwise it makes no sense. Redcliffe's forces couldn't be that insignificant, the arl seems a powerful man with many knights at his disposal.

Coupled with what is now being revealed in RtO, this nose-tweaking could very well have pushed Loghain over the edge.

[NejkrutejsiSlepice]

I believe both Cailan and Loghain are a tragic figures in this story. Everyone seems to be busy dismissing Cailan as an idiot.. Cailan has never been through the Orlesian occupation and it doesn't really come to me as a shocker that he was easily "seduced" by peace and friendship promises of the Orlesian Empire. He wasn't exactly a brainiac. Which would make Loghain considerably angry, that I can understand.

But no, I don't think that Cailan was an idiot.. I think he was deluded by his visions of greatness, just like Loghain was deluded by the fears of yet another Orlesian invasion. Because honestly, everyone here is now like "Loghain is awesome yeey"... should we forget that his delusion almost destroyed everything, given the fact that he wanted to get rid of all Grey Wardens currently in Ferelden (and therefore meanings to fight the Blight at all)? That he almost screwed everything up? I can understand that he withdrew from the battle that would've been lost, but his deluded hostility during a Blight towards all Wardens (OMG, Wardens are Orlesian spies, waaaa!) is inexcusable in my eyes.

So yeah.. I think they both had good intentions that in the end resulted in an epic fail.

[Sabriana]

NejkrutejsiSlepice wrote...

I believe both Cailan and Loghain are a tragic figures in this story. Everyone seems to be busy dismissing Cailan as an idiot.. Cailan has never been through the Orlesian occupation and it doesn't really come to me as a shocker that he was easily "seduced" by peace and friendship promises of the Orlesian Empire. He wasn't exactly a brainiac. Which would make Loghain considerably angry, that I can understand.
But no, I don't think that Cailan was an idiot.. I think he was deluded by his visions of greatness, just like Loghain was deluded by the fears of yet another Orlesian invasion. Because honestly, everyone here is now like "Loghain is awesome yeey"... should we forget that his delusion almost destroyed everything, given the fact that he wanted to get rid of all Grey Wardens currently in Ferelden (and therefore meanings to fight the Blight at all)? That he almost screwed everything up? I can understand that he withdrew from the battle that would've been lost, but his deluded hostility during a Blight towards all Wardens (OMG, Wardens are Orlesian spies, waaaa!) is inexcusable in my eyes.
So yeah.. I think they both had good intentions that in the end resulted in an epic fail.

I agree with quite a few things, but I do believe that Cailan was a fool who let everyone pull his strings far too easily. He was also very immature, and obsessed with himself, the Wardens, and riding into glorious history. So much so that he lost sight of reason. He rebuffs Duncan's advice to wait for Redcliffe with "Eamon only wants in on the glory". That is the most immature answer he could give.

He has no clue what is going on in Denerim, let alone his kingdom. He happily tells my elf that he was "forbidden" to enter the alienage. Beg pardon? What? You're the king, your matjesty, it's your duty to know all about the happenings in your kingdom.

So yes, I agree, Cailan was having delusions of grandeur, but he was also a fool.