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Return To Ostagar Impressions and Discussion. (spoilers.....Duh!)


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#151
Freckles04

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NejkrutejsiSlepice wrote...

I believe both Cailan and Loghain are a tragic figures in this story. Everyone seems to be busy dismissing Cailan as an idiot.. Cailan has never been through the Orlesian occupation and it doesn't really come to me as a shocker that he was easily "seduced" by peace and friendship promises of the Orlesian Empire. He wasn't exactly a brainiac. Which would make Loghain considerably angry, that I can understand.
But no, I don't think that Cailan was an idiot.. I think he was deluded by his visions of greatness, just like Loghain was deluded by the fears of yet another Orlesian invasion. Because honestly, everyone here is now like "Loghain is awesome yeey"... should we forget that his delusion almost destroyed everything, given the fact that he wanted to get rid of all Grey Wardens currently in Ferelden (and therefore meanings to fight the Blight at all)? That he almost screwed everything up? I can understand that he withdrew from the battle that would've been lost, but his deluded hostility during a Blight towards all Wardens (OMG, Wardens are Orlesian spies, waaaa!) is inexcusable in my eyes.
So yeah.. I think they both had good intentions that in the end resulted in an epic fail.


Cailan's personality is really introduced in the epilogue to The Stolen Throne, when Ailis is telling him of his father's adventures in reclaiming Ferelden's throne. He grew up in Maric's heroic shadow. I believe that coloured his perceptions of what a king should be, and what he should aspire to in his reign. Growing up on those stories, it's obvious that he wanted to be the hero in some of his own tales...and how better to succeed the brilliance of his father than by being the king that defeated the Blight before it had truly begun?

I don't think that makes him an idiot, or stupid. I do think, however, that he was naive, idealistic, too eager to be a hero, and not willing or able to see the political machinations at work. Or perhaps he was too eager to believe the best of a pretty face. That doesn't make him stupid...just a man. Oh! Did I say that out loud?? :innocent: :lol:

I absolutely agree with Nej's post above -- Cailan was deluded by visions of grandeur. Also, just because Loghain's motives are more clear with RtO's revelations, it doesn't necessarily mean he was right to do what he did in the way he did it. It's understandable why he did it, but I can't say I agree. There were other routes he could have taken, surely, that didn't involve the betrayal of the king. ...

Okay, in typing that last sentence, I came up with a couple of courses of action Loghain COULD have taken, and promptly realized why he didn't.

1) Seek out Alistair and groom him to be Cailan's replacement -- he wouldn't have done this because Alistair was raised by Eamon (who married an Orlesian and therefore, in Loghain's eyes, not to be trusted); and not to mention, a Grey Warden, and Grey Wardens are all in the pocket of Orlais.

2) Go to Bryce Cousland for support in overthrowing Cailan -- except the Couslands regularly go to Orlais (as evidenced by Eleanor's story to Lady Landra in the opening of the HN origin) and that's the reason Howe gives for his take-over of Highever.

So in Loghain's eyes, probably the betrayal of the king was all he COULD do. Interesting. ::goes off to think more about it::

Have I mentioned that I love this world?? LOL.

#152
SalvoDK

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Haven't read the whole thread but there is a general assumption that Cailan intended to marry the Empress.



Now there is the possibility that he intended to make her his mistress, sire a bastard then acknowledge the child as his heir, strengthening the relationship between the neighbour states while avoiding the politically non-viable marriage and union.



We don't even know, for example, if the Empress actually already has a husband, or if not, perhaps a royal consort or even several royal consorts and several heirs to the throne of the Orlesian Empire already lined up ready to continue her line while the children she would subsequently have with Cailan went on rule Fereldan.



Also, as to Cailan''s stupidity, Cailan never struck me as stupid after I read The Stolen Throne. He struck me as being exactly the same as his father, only as he had grown up in a palace and had never had to face a life changing moment such as his father had (not going to spoil the novel, but i'm refering to what happens immediately before the start of the book's first chapter) he'd never grown beyond boyhood to become a man. If, for example he had survived the betrayel at Ostergar I am certain he would have hardened fast to become the sort of man you could be proud to call king.

#153
NejkrutejsiSlepice

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Sabriana wrote...
I agree with quite a few things, but I do believe that Cailan was a fool who let everyone pull his strings far too easily. He was also very immature, and obsessed with himself, the Wardens, and riding into glorious history. So much so that he lost sight of reason. He rebuffs Duncan's advice to wait for Redcliffe with "Eamon only wants in on the glory". That is the most immature answer he could give.

He has no clue what is going on in Denerim, let alone his kingdom. He happily tells my elf that he was "forbidden" to enter the alienage. Beg pardon? What? You're the king, your matjesty, it's your duty to know all about the happenings in your kingdom.

So yes, I agree, Cailan was having delusions of grandeur, but he was also a fool.


I agree.. As I said, Cailan wasn't the brightest star in the sky and his ego and obsession with heroic tales did indeed essentially lose the battle of Ostagar. Neither him nor Loghain were fit to rule because of their own delusions and for me it's what made both Cailan and Loghain a 'threat' to Ferelden during a Blight. Tragic.

SalvoDK wrote...
Also, as to Cailan''s stupidity,
Cailan never struck me as stupid after I read The Stolen Throne. He
struck me as being exactly the same as his father, only as he had grown
up in a palace and had never had to face a life changing moment such as
his father had (not going to spoil the novel, but i'm refering to what
happens immediately before the start of the book's first chapter) he'd
never grown beyond boyhood to become a man. If, for example he had
survived the betrayel at Ostergar I am certain he would have hardened
fast to become the sort of man you could be proud to call king.


Yep, I think you are right... Everyone could see that Cailan was still a boy (a big and shiny boy ^^) at Ostagar. With Anora basicaly ruling the country, he didn't go through a hardening experience that could've made him a better ruler.

Freckles04 wrote...
Have I mentioned that I love this world?? LOL.


Ye, me too :D It's cool ^^

#154
Travese

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hey i may be in the wrong forum but how do you get  Return to Ostagar to download in the game.  I have the points but it doesn't show up to download.  I'm on hold with tech support to figure this out.  Can anyone shed some light please.

#155
AnniLau

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Travese wrote...

hey i may be in the wrong forum but how do you get  Return to Ostagar to download in the game.  I have the points but it doesn't show up to download.  I'm on hold with tech support to figure this out.  Can anyone shed some light please.

It's not out yet.

#156
Travese

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So how are people talking about it now?

#157
AnniLau

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Travese wrote...

So how are people talking about it now?


It was released briefly on Xbox only, but there was a problem and they removed it there as well.

http://social.biowar.../9/index/608506

Modifié par AnniLau, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:38 .


#158
Ulicus

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It came out for the 360 earlier, a bunch of us finished it a few times, then it was recalled when they realised there were bugs.

#159
Travese

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Thanks for the info stupid website makes it look like you can get it now. I guess they meant holiday 2010 on 2009.

#160
Travese

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Ulicus wrote...

It came out for the 360 earlier, a bunch of us finished it a few times, then it was recalled when they realised there were bugs.



thanks

Modifié par Travese, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:38 .


#161
Vicious

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The 360 version was released yesterday, then subsequently "unreleased" due to massive bugs.





Anyway, Loghain cares about Ferelden first and foremost. If you tell him you'd rather leave Cailan strung up by the Darkspawn as you find him, He literally says "ARE YOU INSANE? LEAVING HIM HERE WOULD LEAVE A MONUMENT TO FERELDEN'S DEFEAT! Let's cut him down from there and let the wolves have him, so he can disappear quietly."



He also gets upset if you insist Cailan get a funeral pyre, since he doesn't think Cailan deserves the honor.



fascinating.

#162
Thomas9321

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I thought Cailan's pyre was a very emotive scene. I lost some respect for Loghain (I'd have to made a graph for the amount of gained and lost respect Loghain has over the books and game) when he insisted on leaving the body for the wolves. Cailain's intentions were good and the least he deserves are basic funeral rights.

#163
NvVanity

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Vicious wrote...

The 360 version was released yesterday, then subsequently "unreleased" due to massive bugs.


Anyway, Loghain cares about Ferelden first and foremost. If you tell him you'd rather leave Cailan strung up by the Darkspawn as you find him, He literally says "ARE YOU INSANE? LEAVING HIM HERE WOULD LEAVE A MONUMENT TO FERELDEN'S DEFEAT! Let's cut him down from there and let the wolves have him, so he can disappear quietly."

He also gets upset if you insist Cailan get a funeral pyre, since he doesn't think Cailan deserves the honor.

fascinating.


I still gave him the pyre. Sure not very honorable but he was the king it's the least he deserves for at least attempting to do a good job.

#164
Sabriana

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Vicious wrote...

The 360 version was released yesterday, then subsequently "unreleased" due to massive bugs.


Anyway, Loghain cares about Ferelden first and foremost. If you tell him you'd rather leave Cailan strung up by the Darkspawn as you find him, He literally says "ARE YOU INSANE? LEAVING HIM HERE WOULD LEAVE A MONUMENT TO FERELDEN'S DEFEAT! Let's cut him down from there and let the wolves have him, so he can disappear quietly."

He also gets upset if you insist Cailan get a funeral pyre, since he doesn't think Cailan deserves the honor.

fascinating.


Oh? Really? Does he say that before or after the notes are found? Because if he says it before, then that means he knew far more about Cailan's plans (whatever they might have been) than he lets on. Otherwise, such a hatred for a dead man is quite unsettling.

#165
Ulicus

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After or before (you don't have to find them, after all), though normally after. I think it just assumes you'd have already picked them up.

In fact, maybe you have to have found the sword (along with the notes) before the cutscene plays. I don't know....

Modifié par Ulicus, 14 janvier 2010 - 10:06 .


#166
Sabriana

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Ulicus wrote...

After or before (you don't have to find them, after all), though normally after. I think it just assumes you'd have already picked them up.


Ah, thank you. Again.
I wish there was a way to quizz Loghain extensively about his knowledge concerning Cailan's plans. Oh the secrecy. What torture.

#167
Vicious

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It's an emotional scene no matter what you do, leave him strung up, leave him for the wolves, or Build a pyre.

#168
likeorasgod

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MassEffect762 wrote...

Wait, so it's out on the 360?

I'm in PC land and still nothing. Bah, spoiled myself already. Lame. I'll still play it.

This blows cause thought they where suppose to wait and put it out on all plateforms at the same time.

I got all excited seeing this post and checked for the content and nothing (PC user).

Though still would like to see some great Rogue armor you don't have to give your first born for.  Would of loved Duncans armor cause there are way to many massive armors as is that you can field all your warriors in them and have some to spare.

#169
Selej

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So I'm curious, for those of us who downloaded RtO yesterday on xbox, can we still play it? I mean, it never glitched out for me and worked fine...

#170
Vicious

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Selej wrote...

So I'm curious, for those of us who downloaded RtO yesterday on xbox, can we still play it? I mean, it never glitched out for me and worked fine...



Um... play on. It's not like you won't automatically download a fix if it comes.

#171
Costin_Razvan

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Thomas9321 wrote...

I thought Cailan's pyre was a very emotive scene. I lost some respect for Loghain (I'd have to made a graph for the amount of gained and lost respect Loghain has over the books and game) when he insisted on leaving the body for the wolves. Cailain's intentions were good and the least he deserves are basic funeral rights.


Would you agree to build a pyre for the same person who cost you as a general the lives of hundreds of your soldiers ( ones you knew personally )? I don't think so.

I belive Cailan deserves a pyre, but Loghain is right. It is better they never find a body or the ashes.

#172
Guest_Shavon_*

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Selej wrote...

So I'm curious, for those of us who downloaded RtO yesterday on xbox, can we still play it? I mean, it never glitched out for me and worked fine...


The bug everyone talked about never actually happened for me, either.  Or so I thought. I played later in the day, and all the specializations were re-locked after all!

I don't care that much, except it locked me out of a specialization I hadn't put points in yet.  Luckily, Assassin is easy to get, at that point in the game, but it's frustrating for getting party member specializations.

Overall, I loved this dlc, mostly for sentimental reasons, and for a certain dagger.

Honestly, if I had not read the Calling, it wouldn't have been nearly as awesome for me.

#173
Freckles04

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Shavon wrote...

Overall, I loved this dlc, mostly for sentimental reasons, and for a certain dagger.

Honestly, if I had not read the Calling, it wouldn't have been nearly as awesome for me.


Agreed! I love the dagger's specs. It made me smile. :)

Modifié par Freckles04, 15 janvier 2010 - 03:19 .


#174
Ulicus

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+10 against Dragons! >:D

#175
Sidney

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Selej wrote...

So I'm curious, for those of us who downloaded RtO yesterday on xbox, can we still play it? I mean, it never glitched out for me and worked fine...


Same here, I've had no issues and finished RtO with 2 characters - both of whom were past the specialization bug so I see no issues with playing it.