123 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

I'm currently planning what game to play in between my current and next play through of the Mass Effect trilogy.  I've seen Dark Souls recommended here and elsewhere, but I have my reservations.

1.  The faces in the character creator look two generations old.  I like creating a character that I think looks good (either aesthetically, or accurate to how I've imagined the character: scars, beards, eye color, tattoos, etc.).  There's really no question here, I just wanted to get that out there.  I guess I can maybe ask if there are mods that make faces better?

2.  I've heard the game is hard.  What I want to know is if it's challenging or Nintendo Hard.  I very much prefer a legimitately challening game (say, Devil May Cry on Dante Must Die mode), but I don't feel like slogging through a game where the difficulty stems from unresponsive controls or unfun mechanics ("You wandered into the maximum level zone that's right next to and looks identical to the minimum level zone and died.  You lose 99% of your stats permenantly, all of your equipment, and your credit score is now halved").

3.  Are there quality dialog choices/chances to characterize my character?  Or do I just walk aimlessly through the world killing things just because?  I tried playing Dragon's Dogma, but I couldn't make it past getting my first pawn because I just wasn't given a reason to care about my character, any other charcter, or the world and what was happening to it.  I don't mind a dungeon crawler/action game, but I don't like RPGs where the goal is to just play an RPG.

4.  Essentially, is Dark Souls lauded solely because it's a "classic" RPG devoid of the conveniences that the genre has picked up over the years?   I know a lot of people on these forums would absolutely praise a game where you had to prepare a spell hours before you could use it, died permenantly, had to micromanage a small business to sell items in your inventory, etc.  I don't like that era of the genre and I would rather not buy the game if it is recommended based on those values.

Thanks.

[Iosev]

The game isn't really that difficult, as there are several games that can be much more difficult, especially on their respective "hard" modes, such as the Devil May Cry series. I think that it is more accurate to say that Dark Souls doesn't really try to hold the player's hand in a metaphorical sense. For example, in many current games, even the most difficult ones, there are features like auto-saves, or the ability to manually create a save at any time, so that even if you die, you can quickly reload, whereas in Dark Souls, you may have to slog through a previously explored area to retry a particular boss (which was a bit more punishing in Demon's Souls). In general, the game can be challenging, but it is usually fair (i.e., you usually know why you died), and there are several other games that are much more difficult, with much more harsher punishments for dying.

As for dialog choices and decisions, while there are a few instances where your actions may change something (e.g., killing a particular NPC, visiting a place earlier than normal, following a NPC's instructions, etc.), you're probably going to have to rely on a more minimalistic and abstract approach to role-playing.

Finally, I think people like Dark Souls (and Demon's Souls) for several different reasons. Some like the series because the developers don't "pamper" its players as much as most current games (I mean, in Demon's Souls, it's "tutorial" level aims to kill you). Others love the series because of the atmosphere and imagery. Others love the sort of old school feel of playing a game like Metroid or Castlevania, where you slowly explore more and more of an interconnected world. It certainly isn't a game for everyone, but I do think that everyone should at least give the series a try.

Modifié par arcelonious, 11 mars 2013 - 08:21 .

[eroeru]

^ I agree with everything of the above.

The game feels really fresh and different from nowadays' RPG paradigms. You won't get any wide-scale interaction in this world, yet the NPCs you do interact with are really unique and give it some life of its own. It is a saddened world and aims for a desolate feel, something of a more mythological and middle-age take on life after death. You literally are a dead one in this game.
Yet behind the melancholy is beauty.

But this really shouldn't dissuade you from trying out the game that's absolutely brilliant at what it does. The mechanics make everything in DS really meaningful and deep. The game's always challenging yet never unfair.
Its strong point is originality and going against the grain - if you accept only games that built upon Bioware's formulas, it's not for you. Tho ideally a gamer doesn't have that many limiting preconceptions.

The only con is that the PC version is a bad port. To the extent that you'll need an xbox controller to play it on PC.

edit: as to "wandering aimlessly", this isn't a type of game in which you should "get rich and save the world". It's a more enigmatic, and in my opinion more believable fantasy world. Yet the wandering doesn't become boring. Ever. All areas are filled with combat that's ALWAYS challenging no matter what area you're in, and will stay interesting in its variables always, though many casuals won't get a grasp of it.

Modifié par eroeru, 11 mars 2013 - 08:53 .

[Fishy]

Maverick827 wrote...

I'm currently planning what game to play in between my current and next play through of the Mass Effect trilogy.  I've seen Dark Souls recommended here and elsewhere, but I have my reservations.

1.  The faces in the character creator look two generations old.  I like creating a character that I think looks good (either aesthetically, or accurate to how I've imagined the character: scars, beards, eye color, tattoos, etc.).  There's really no question here, I just wanted to get that out there.  I guess I can maybe ask if there are mods that make faces better?

2.  I've heard the game is hard.  What I want to know is if it's challenging or Nintendo Hard.  I very much prefer a legimitately challening game (say, Devil May Cry on Dante Must Die mode), but I don't feel like slogging through a game where the difficulty stems from unresponsive controls or unfun mechanics ("You wandered into the maximum level zone that's right next to and looks identical to the minimum level zone and died.  You lose 99% of your stats permenantly, all of your equipment, and your credit score is now halved").

3.  Are there quality dialog choices/chances to characterize my character?  Or do I just walk aimlessly through the world killing things just because?  I tried playing Dragon's Dogma, but I couldn't make it past getting my first pawn because I just wasn't given a reason to care about my character, any other charcter, or the world and what was happening to it.  I don't mind a dungeon crawler/action game, but I don't like RPGs where the goal is to just play an RPG.

4.  Essentially, is Dark Souls lauded solely because it's a "classic" RPG devoid of the conveniences that the genre has picked up over the years?   I know a lot of people on these forums would absolutely praise a game where you had to prepare a spell hours before you could use it, died permenantly, had to micromanage a small business to sell items in your inventory, etc.  I don't like that era of the genre and I would rather not buy the game if it is recommended based on those values.

Thanks.

1: Well it's good enough, but most of your time in the game will be spent has an undead creature unless you want visitor(Multiplayer)

2: It's challenging because the game does not hold your hands. You need to figure out stuff by yourselves (How to beat a monster, where to go, what weapons you should use etc, how magery work) .. For instance in the Deeps you can receive a curse that blast away half your health. Of course with the interwabz it's easy to figure out how to cure it, but they never told you how in the game. You need to be aware of your surrounding has even the weakest mob can still kill you.

3: There's talking and choice to make with different npc. The game though is not ''cinematic narrative''. It's a very atmospheric world though and very depressive :Lp. Sometime an image mean more than 10000 words can, but you have to be the kind of person that can be immersed with this kind of gameplay . If you're more video game/moviez you should look elsewhere.


4: You don't really have to micromanage since your inventory has no limit. You just have to figure out stuff by yourselves. There's no map or arrow pointing you in the right direction or exclamation point. That the thing I love about this game. You can be lost in the game worlds unless you have a gameguide right next to you. If you're the kind that just want to ''speed'' run through the game like a movie.. Not made for you.

Modifié par Suprez30, 11 mars 2013 - 10:06 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

1. I've made a character that looks exactly like me. You just have to be willing to put a lot of time into the character creator. I honestly loved both Dark Souls, Demons' Souls, and Oblivion's character creators a lot more than people give them credit for.

2. It's not Nintendo hard. It is just challenging, if you have no idea what you are doing. I've beaten the game at SL: 5, but it took me at least 15 years to beat the Lawnmower Man on the SNES, so no.

3. Some of the voice actors are pretty good, but dialogue is almost non-existant. Don't expect Dragon Age: Origins or Planescape: Torment level dialogue.

4. The only thing I dislike about the game is the lack of storyline. Other than that, it could be the best ARPG I've ever played (Demon's Souls is better only because it's a bit more polished). They really improved over Demon's Souls with the bonfires. You would seriously be pulling your hair in Demon's because of the nexus which is really lame since you have to start from zero and travel all the way back. There really isn't any form of economy other than kill a character, get souls. You just have to be cautious about how you proceed with each level. If you die more than once, chances are your not supposed to be traveling that level yet.

[eroeru]

^ That seems... shortsighted.

Modifié par eroeru, 11 mars 2013 - 11:01 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Black Ops II...the rpg.

[spirosz]

Apparently, since you do a lot of different things with your character, like joining/betraying Covenants, the order or which you do the story, etc, blah blah - people like to think it's an RPG, I personally don't, but I can sort of see why they do.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Dark Souls is about 50 million times the rpg of a Dragon Age.

Don't waste your time...go play a nice, cute, easy game with mountains less statistics.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Dark Souls is the quintessential rpg/dungeon crawler. Recommend Game Spot review.

[eroeru]

simfamSP wrote...

eroeru wrote...


^ That seems... shortsighted.

It's my idea of an RPG, MensturationCertified ;-)

Hahahahaha.

Well, yeah, it fails your test then.

I think "lots of different stuff to do and enjoy" is the closest I can think of an explanation why Dark Souls should be called an RPG. That and the game's really rich in lore and painting out the world. Plus the statistics' thing, loads of different items and playstyles, customisation and a blanksheet character...

Modifié par eroeru, 11 mars 2013 - 11:30 .

[eroeru]

The combat's fairly RPGish if you'd ask me. Also, you do realize you're talking on your own...

Noone's going to agree with you on that, no matter if you say it's that simple.

Modifié par eroeru, 11 mars 2013 - 11:26 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Maverick827 wrote...

I'm currently planning what game to play in between my current and next play through of the Mass Effect trilogy. I've seen Dark Souls recommended here and elsewhere, but I have my reservations.

1. The faces in the character creator look two generations old. I like creating a character that I think looks good (either aesthetically, or accurate to how I've imagined the character: scars, beards, eye color, tattoos, etc.). There's really no question here, I just wanted to get that out there. I guess I can maybe ask if there are mods that make faces better?

2. I've heard the game is hard. What I want to know is if it's challenging or Nintendo Hard. I very much prefer a legimitately challening game (say, Devil May Cry on Dante Must Die mode), but I don't feel like slogging through a game where the difficulty stems from unresponsive controls or unfun mechanics ("You wandered into the maximum level zone that's right next to and looks identical to the minimum level zone and died. You lose 99% of your stats permenantly, all of your equipment, and your credit score is now halved").

3. Are there quality dialog choices/chances to characterize my character? Or do I just walk aimlessly through the world killing things just because? I tried playing Dragon's Dogma, but I couldn't make it past getting my first pawn because I just wasn't given a reason to care about my character, any other charcter, or the world and what was happening to it. I don't mind a dungeon crawler/action game, but I don't like RPGs where the goal is to just play an RPG.

4. Essentially, is Dark Souls lauded solely because it's a "classic" RPG devoid of the conveniences that the genre has picked up over the years? I know a lot of people on these forums would absolutely praise a game where you had to prepare a spell hours before you could use it, died permenantly, had to micromanage a small business to sell items in your inventory, etc. I don't like that era of the genre and I would rather not buy the game if it is recommended based on those values.

Thanks.

1. The big joke of the game is that they give you extensive character creation controls, but you spend the majority of the game with your skin flayed off. You not only will not look good in the game, you'll look even worse than you thought.

2. Its annoyingly hard and unforgiving. Mostly due to the save system. It uses a checkpoint save system with alot of loss involved. You can get back what you lost...but only if you can get back to where you just died without dying again. And considering you're weaker than the first time you died, good luck with that. The combat itself is pretty enjoyable, but you pay a pretty steep price just to learn how to beat something.

3. Not really no. Dragon's Dogma was a masterpiece of roleplay elements compared to Dark Souls. Dialogue consists of you clicking on people and having them cackle at you between nonsensical lines. Enjoy it for the gameplay, not the roleplay.

4. I'd say the game was lauded for its challenge level more than anything else. It does not hold your hand in the least, which I admire, even given my feelings on #2. It frustrated the crap out of me many times, but I knew that going in.

Of course all of the above is my personal opinion which others will disagree with.

[eroeru]

Though the main problem would probably be in defining those words and agreeing on some RPG combat definitions... I'll go with that for the moment and even then I can call it RPG. If you start twitching behind your controller you're a goner. The game requires patience and planning first and foremost!

Modifié par eroeru, 12 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

simfamSP wrote...

I'm confused. How can it be an RPG with dialogue? Unless the few dialogue options I do have can differentiate and personalise my character.

RPGs are role playing. You can play a role without dialogue. If you are a mage, you have to cast spells that is a role. If you are a faith-based healer, you have to play as one. Dark Souls is as much an RPG as anything else.

[eroeru]

simfamSP wrote...

eroeru wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

eroeru wrote...


^ That seems... shortsighted.

It's my idea of an RPG, MensturationCertified ;-)

Hahahahaha.

Well, yeah, it fails your test then.

I think "lots of different stuff to do and enjoy" is the closest I can think of an explanation why Dark Souls should be called an RPG. That and the game's really rich in lore and painting out the world. Plus the statistics' thing, loads of different items and playstyles, customisation and a blanksheet character...

So an awesome dungeon crawler with RPG elements then? I'm cool with that. I've yet to play it, but I'll enjoy it no doubt.

I'll probably throw my controller a few times...might break a TV or two xD *sigh* should've bought it for PC

EntropicAngel wrote...

Lol. Twitch doesn't mean you're
actually twitching--it means that the combat is based on your reflexes.
Like Skyrim, or Mass Effect, or The Witcher. Games like Dragon Age, you
pause and point where you want your character to go. You don't attack
with the main mouse button or right trigger, and dodge enemy attacks by
moving your character--they do that on their own. That's what twitch and
non-twitch mean.

EA... I... won't accept taking Bioware games as the epitome of RPGs. Dark Souls combat played out as mindfully and carefully as Witcher or other RPGs, including oldies... Metal Gear Solid even is an RPG with its more indepth system...

Your understanding of twitchbased I don't agree with...

I'm pretty tired right now so made a lot of edits.

Modifié par eroeru, 11 mars 2013 - 11:49 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Dark Souls *is* an RPG. Didn't the old Ultima games also lack dialogue options? I know Arx Fatalis (the spiritual successor) did.

You don't need dialogue choices to role-play and forget the covenants (although they can be used to role-play). The role-playing comes with your actions.

Will you save the maiden cleric or slay her? Will you take revenge on the ones that threw her into the hole or let them live? Will you join their ways and benefit from their evil or ignore them altogether. Every decision here has a consequence. Even ignoring NPC's can result in consequences (in fact some of the major consequences come from doing just that as you'll get some NPC's going out and murdering others if you don't stop them).

Murdering NPC's yourself shows more consequences than doing so in other RPG's. Asides from getting their unique equipment and going through some dialogue with them, killing them means they never respawn (Fable and Oblivion I'm looking at you which did re-spawn a few select unique character NPC's) thus you lose their services, help and anything else that they may have offered.

So if you want to play as an evil character you can do that just as you can play as a good character or a character who simply ignores all else.

Now combine that with the covenants (religious covenants, secular covenants) and you're able to build yourself a character. Play online and how you treat other players is entirely down to you and your covenant will also effect interactions here.

But the most role-playing comes from the quest-lines. Several characters in the game have different endings based on your actions. Even killing them is one ending as it can lead to further consequences as well as unique closing dialogue with them. Solaire, Siegmeyer, Rhea, Dusk all have multiple endings depending on how you assist them. I'd even go as far to venture and say that even Petrus and Patches have endings determined based on your choices and the dialogue of Petrus even reflects decisions you have made.

No story? Only if you skip pass the prologue and ignore Frampt's, Kaathe's, Ingward's and Gywnvere's dialogues. The rest of the story and backstory of the land can be gained from other NPC's and learned from item descriptions. The expansion further expands the story revealing what happened to Gwyn's four knights, where humanity came from (and what their true origins are), the story of the battle between fire and darkness and the fate of Oolacile and how it impacted the rest of Lordran. Dark Souls just tells the story in a unique way. The environment, items and characters are all part of this. Follow the tree roots located throughout Lordran and you will come to the origin and birthplace of all the demons in the land (and this is explained too via dialogue with one of the witches of chaos).

Here's a nice article on the storytelling in Dark Souls:

http://www.eurogamer...k-souls-article

Hell Dark Souls could REALLY have shipped with no story whatsoever and just contained the stories of the characters. Solaire's story itself is better than half the stories you find in RPG's.

Just look at this picture:



The middle part of the stairs are for the gods and giants to walk up while the side stairs are for humans. It's all these little details that make Dark Souls what it is. Every ruin you see has a backstory or at least a function.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 11 mars 2013 - 11:59 .