123 réponses à ce sujet

[Iosev]

Despite enjoying games that have dialogue choices, I personally do not think that they are a necessary element for a role-playing game. There is both personal customization (statistics and itemization) as well as methods to role-play (e.g., the covenants) in Dark Souls. Whether you're killing sinners for Gwyndolin, or repelling trespassers in Darkroot Garden, the game provides means for which to role-play.

I do find it strange that scripted dialogue choices are often now seen as essential to role-playing, when tabletop experiences often rely more on imagination and interaction. Regardless, I personally prefer not get too entangled in defining RPGs, so I'll leave it at that.

[The Hierophant]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm simply arguing a point.

But I don't mind dropping it. Sure.

You should respond to Elton John is Dead's post, as he has valid reasons for labeling Dark Souls an RPG.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 mars 2013 - 12:13 .

[eroeru]

Absolutely *all* you do makes a difference in the game. You could almost feel it in your bones in Dark Souls. And if immersiveness and going into the game character's shoes in experiencing it doesn't count for an important RPG element, I don't know if anything else does.

Modifié par eroeru, 12 mars 2013 - 12:31 .

[The Hierophant]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

You should respond to Elton John is Dead's post, as he has valid reasons for labeling Dark Souls an RPG.

The things he states as consequences don't actually seem like consequences. Someone dying, and you not being able to buy things from them--that's not "choice and consequence."

 
 You the player can choose to murder an Npc which makes it a choice, and losing a potential vender hampers your chance at rare items/stock items in exchange for an immediate reward is a consequence,  your decision to murder the npc is determined by you alone. 

That sounds similar to the Webster definitions of choice and consequence.
 

Now, what he says about different endings sounds interesting, but based on that ^, I don't know if for him, different endings are simply a person is dead or they are alive. I don't consider that to really be a world difference.

Did you read EJiD post? Characters have multiply endings based on how you interact with them, think Fallout: New Vegas. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 12 mars 2013 - 12:51 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

EntropicAngel wrote...

eroeru wrote...

EA... I... won't accept taking Bioware games as the epitome of RPGs. Witcher combat played out as mindfully and carefully as Dark Souls or other RPGs, including oldies... Metal Gear Solid even is an RPG with its more indepth system...

Your understanding of twitchbased I don't agree with...

Well, as they say, it's a free country. I'm certainly not offended that we disagree. It happens.

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

RPGs are role playing. You can play a role without dialogue. If you are a mage, you have to cast spells that is a role. If you are a faith-based healer, you have to play as one. Dark Souls is as much an RPG as anything else.

It sounds like you're saying Call of Duty is an RPG (not Blops 2, just in general). It sounds like you're saying Medal of Honor is an RPG. It sounds like you're saying Half-Life is an RPG. It sounds like you're saying Portal is an RPG.

Your definition is too broad.

I'm just going to quote one more thing because I don't want to keep this topic on a tangent. In CoD, Half-Life, etc. you don't have a choice. You are thrusted into the role of a soldier, scientist, etc., but Dark Souls gives you a choice. As I said, you can choose to play a mage and play a role or you can choose to be a faith-based healer. That is why an RPG can be an RPG without having dialogue. It also has to do with stats. You can choose to put stats in intel over wis, but it depends on the character you are roleplaying. Half-Life and Portal didn't have any of this.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

It's weird...I see numbers after every strike on every enemy in Dark Souls. I think it tells me how much damage it does .

You spam statistics in Dragon Age. They don't matter, either, because even on hardest settings its gravy-train. Might as well not have them.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Black Ops II has choices affecting story.

Obviously an rpg.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

True. It's all in opinions anyways, and different perspectives are good. Like I said, interested gamers, GameSpot had a great review.

Modifié par sympathy4sarenreturns, 12 mars 2013 - 04:56 .

[slimgrin]

When it drops to 10 bucks I'll give it a shot on PC. It may very well not be my type of game despite looking that way aesthetically. I hated the old school Nintendo games that predicated difficulty on memorizing vast passages where if you made one mistake, a broken save system meant repeating said passage. Over and over. This is an approach to difficult gameplay I am thoroughly done with.

Modifié par slimgrin, 12 mars 2013 - 04:19 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

slimgrin wrote...

When it drops to 10 bucks I'll give it a shot on PC. It may very well not be my type of game despite looking that way aesthetically. I hated the old school Nintendo games that predicated difficulty on memorizing vast passages where if you made one mistake, a broken save system meant repeating said passage. Over and over. This is an approach to difficult gameplay I am thoroughly done with.

There is little memorizing passages and much more learning how enemy types behave, what their critical attacks are if they have them (all have tells, all are devastating unless low level, some are one-hitter quitters...but they have tells) and being persistant. But there will be backtracking and redoing if you die many times in a spot, as is inevitable at spots.The nice thing is that it can create massive quantities of souls if you retrieve each and every time, which isn't too hard to do, especially in boss fights.

But traverse areas over and over is inevitable. It can be a drag, but it also feels like progress. Some times you move and make good game progress, others you will hit a wall and die a lot before reaching the next bonfire in the world. You move forward, get so far, die or return so you won't die, hear out with fresh estus flasks (health potions that regen at bonfires),

Modifié par sympathy4sarenreturns, 12 mars 2013 - 05:12 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

(Cont.) Get so far again. But there are items all over the place and lots of little grooves and secrets, so if you're exploring and you die, which is common, any items you get are permanently there in your inventory. So it feels like progress. Ok...I died...I got to retrek out, but now I have a new spear that is 78 pts higher in damage. Oh, and I picked up some soul bundles....let me use them and maybe level Vitality once. Since enemies respawn, almost all except some that are one and done once defeated, you can also farm for souls and item drops.

The combat, loot and exploration is great. And the atmosphere...thick and dense, is unrivalled to me. Great news, as Dark Souls II is being optimized for PC and is claimed to have graphical fidelity of Watch Dogs or Star Wars 1313.

[Corto81]

If you like RPGs, if you like challenging games, and if you like being treated like an adult...
Play Dark Souls.

Once you get the hang of it, and the frustration is replaced by a sense of accomplishment and pure adrenalin... There're very few gaming experiences that are better than Dark Souls.

[Corto81]

slimgrin wrote...

When it drops to 10 bucks I'll give it a shot on PC. It may very well not be my type of game despite looking that way aesthetically. I hated the old school Nintendo games that predicated difficulty on memorizing vast passages where if you made one mistake, a broken save system meant repeating said passage. Over and over. This is an approach to difficult gameplay I am thoroughly done with.

It's not a "broken save system", it's how the game work. It's a key part of WHY it's so challenging and rewarding.

Also, my advice, if you play it on PC, get a controller. It makes a HUGE difference.

[Shaewaros]

Roleplaying isn't only about dialogue options - more generally it's about getting immersed into your character and making decisions based on his/her personality. In this respect Dark Souls gives some roleplaying freedom. Another element, that is not exclusively characteristic for RPGs but play a major role in most of them, is the freedom to explore a truly open world. This element Dark Souls executes brilliantly, much better than most CRPGs.

I'd say that combatwise Dark Souls beats about any oldschool RPG in it's depth - weapons, armors and shields all have required stats to use effectively, though you can still use them with penalties. Every class has different combat style and you can use wastly different strategies to defeat your enemies.

In my opinion all people who enjoy RPGs should try this game. Personally I was really surprised how immersed I got into the world of Dark Souls - probably the last time I got so immersed was while playing games like System Shock 2 and Morrowind many years ago.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I'll just add my insignificant vote to the thickly veiled poll: Dark Souls is not an RPG.

No character molding = no RPG

BI

[eroeru]

Have you guys who claim it's not an RPG actually played the game for a significant amount of time to see the gameworld and how the character *does* get to be "molded"?

[Corto81]

eroeru wrote...


Have you guys who claim it's not an RPG actually played the game for a significant amount of time to see the gameworld and how the character *does* get to be "molded"?

Yeah, I pretty much don't understand their lines of reasoning.

Both Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma have a silent protagonist, and what they say is limited to "Accept", "Decline", "Yes" and "No".
Yet that allows you to shape your character and shape the world. What you do matters. The consequences matter.

You have a million different ways to build a character in these japanese WRPGs, and the scale of the world is massive, thought out and detailed.

Honestly, games like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma (someone mentioned it earlier) completely dwarf a game like DA2, including the role-playing department.

Hell,, if anything, Hawke being a bland douche was the final nail in the coffin of an already inferior game.
And any "character shaping" was limited because the protagonist always felt like BW's character, not mine.

Again, if you like RPGs, and you like challenge... Dark Souls will blow you away. 
It's. That. Good.

[Il Divo]

Elton John is dead wrote...

The middle part of the stairs are for the gods and giants to walk up while the side stairs are for humans. It's all these little details that make Dark Souls what it is. Every ruin you see has a backstory or at least a function.

I'd say this is really what keeps me coming back to the world of Dark Souls. Aside from the lack of handholding, the game really isn't all that difficult, especially on subsequent playthroughs (areas which previously took hours to explore can be done in 10-15 minutes tops).

What's amazing about the game is the sense that everything is interconnected and has a purpose, which increases the setting's integrity. Dark Souls gives the impression (imo) that they designed a world first and built their gameplay around that world, not the other way around. That sense of loneliness as you're exploring all these desolate locations meeting the occasional npc is fantastic.