123 réponses à ce sujet

[oknenah]

I don't care what anyone says, Dark Souls is an amazing game that I would recommend to people up for a challenge.

[Megaton_Hope]

eroeru wrote...


^ No.

You're an awfully young one, ain't ya? Complex is "ludicrous"? Graphics wow people? Haven't met too many people nor played many games now have you?

Corto81 wrote...

I'm not sure I've seen a less informed post on Dark Souls than this.

No character? Little recognizable plot? 
If it requires you to think for a minute, it doesn't make it somehow inferior.

The instant ad-homs are classy, folks. You can't insult me into liking a game, I don't know where you got that idea from.

As far as character and plot...Nope, still not seeing it. I must confess, they tried the hard sell on getting me to buy into their BS cosmology, and it just didn't take. So when the generic, vague, messianic prophecy that obviously referred to my own character was uttered, it started losing points on an immersive story that it did not get back from having ludicrously cumbersome gameplay.

It was like trying to read Wheel of Time. What a pointless exercise.

[eroeru]

The real ad hom and fallacy is you thinking everything you don't have the patience to dig through is in realm of "hipsters". That's one *ly simplifying and overconfidence-delighting person (i.e. the worst kind of *) right there.

And with that you were insulting, at least to the extent of the few getting upset.

Modifié par eroeru, 17 mars 2013 - 10:42 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Uh, no. The real ad hominem fallacy was quite clearly in your calling me an inexperienced, mentally stunted shut-in because I don't like a game that you like That this is the habitual response seemingly of absolutely everybody who likes Dark Souls is the one thing above all others that convinces me it's a waste of time trying to enjoy it on its merits as a piece of interactive story-telling.

[eroeru]

Yeah, maybe it won't fall in line with enjoying as a piece of interactive story-telling...

But me saying I was insulted in being called a hipster by a guy who makes himself alldecisive in merit of distancing himself from "ludicrous" people (a personal fallacy in itself!) isn't for you to dismiss.

edit: And when you played it, didn't you once feel the combat, progressing and souls' mechanic makes the challenge really addicting?

Modifié par eroeru, 17 mars 2013 - 12:45 .

[Megaton_Hope]

No, I can't say that I experienced any visceral thrills like that from this game. I didn't get as far as I might have if I'd wanted to spend a lot of time and effort on it, of course. As I recall, I got about to this guy:

http://darksouls.wik...Hellkite_Dragon

I worked out a way around him to the area guarded by the poison rats, but wasn't making much progress on either of the two obvious paths from there. (Either killing the dragon, or fighting the mess of enemies that follow the rat area after sapping my health being poisoned.) I could have spent a lot of time farming souls or finding a bow to kill that thing with, but by that point I really didn't care anymore.

As far as my use of the word ludicrous, you might want to look again. I didn't call anybody ludicrous. Although I might be said to be insulting the life's work of the developers who ported the game to PC, what I called "ludicrous" (and have also called cumbersome) is trying to use a PC keyboard to execute attacks labeled in-game using the console buttons. Wasn't aimed at any person at all.

Also ludicrous, the way opening menus can prevent you from interacting with an environment that might still be trying to kill you, but there isn't a quick way to exit those menus.

[eroeru]

The PC port is devastating - game's not playable without an xbox controller. And I must confess I had trouble around that time into the game myself (it's really just the first area though). Steep learning curve and all that. Yet it did change for me... I guess the will to follow through has something to do with both the smart planning + determination + patience combination and masochistic tendencies.

You always die. A lot. No matter how good you're at similar games.


By the way, the best way to deal with the dragon is to wait for him to come out on the bridge when hiding behind the walls of the middle-part of the bridge, then make him walk towards the other side, then run for it whilst he's walking. There's a bonfire and shortcut there. But for this area you'll need some good weapons already. I luckily got a drop from the first dark knight fellow - a damn big sword. Made it pretty easy.

Modifié par eroeru, 17 mars 2013 - 02:53 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

I remember early in the game exploring around and coming across Havel at soul level 4.

I remember being focused and ready for him as he came up the winding stair...

When I respawned at the Undead Burg bonfire seconds later, I went another direction until I could exact my revenge later.

I heard speculation that Gwyn booted Havel out of Anor Londo because he was discovered to be an occultist. If you find the hidden wall in Anor Londo in the fireplace and the chamber it leads to with a set of Havel's armor, I believe an occult weapon is also in the chest pickup with them.

I have mentioned GameSpot's great review before, but I think its super cool how they have footage of getting squished like a grape from Havel and his huge dragon tooth. They even have the PC screaming "Ahhhhhhhh!!!" from the death blow before cutting to the next clip in transitionary fashion

Modifié par sympathy4sarenreturns, 17 mars 2013 - 04:00 .

[The Hierophant]

EntropicAngel wrote...

No. I should have expressed myself better--what you think, what you feel is more important than what you do--but if there's no way to express those feelings ingame, then the game doesn't count.

That's where Bethesda's games stand.

As a whole not true. Despite it having limited or no dialogue options amongst the non essential npcs, the pc has multiple responses to important npcs like giving their opinion to Roggvir's sister that either her brother did was noble or calling him a traitor, and there's your other interactions with plot important npcs during the campaign. Even though it's dialogue were limited compared to it's predecessors FO3 had intelligence which affected your dialogue options along with expressing their opinions to certain npcs. For Dark Souls there's nothing much to say after Dave of Canada's post.

Plus i shouldn't have added FO:NV as it's an Obsidian game that contained multiple dialogue options with some of them being affected by your perks, and S.P.E.C.I.A.L.

I'll add that I'm not excluding, the "action roleplaying" that Bethesda does (and it sounds like Dark Souls is). But it's far, far down the list on actual roleplaying ingame.

I understand your view, but overall i disagree with your opinion on what's more important to roleplaying, as it's a case of to each his own. 
 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 17 mars 2013 - 06:48 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

@eroeru and Megaton

Okay we get it. You two have an extensive library of rich vocabulary at your disposal. The English Gentlemen's Club applauds you...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

As far as character and plot...Nope, still not seeing it. I must confess, they tried the hard sell on getting me to buy into their BS cosmology, and it just didn't take. So when the generic, vague, messianic prophecy that obviously referred to my own character was uttered, it started losing points on an immersive story that it did not get back from having ludicrously cumbersome gameplay.

Megaton_Hope wrote...
No, I can't say that I experienced any visceral thrills like that from this game. I didn't get as far as I might have if I'd wanted to spend a lot of time and effort on it, of course. As I recall, I got about to this guy:

http://darksouls.wik...Hellkite_Dragon

I worked out a way around him to the area guarded by the poison rats, but wasn't making much progress on either of the two obvious paths from there. (Either killing the dragon, or fighting the mess of enemies that follow the rat area after sapping my health being poisoned.) I could have spent a lot of time farming souls or finding a bow to kill that thing with, but by that point I really didn't care anymore.

In otherwords you didn't experience much of the game or of the story. I wonder how you'd fare with a game like Baldur's Gate which also contained similar challanges (i.e taking on certain enemies at low levels). The dragon isn't meant to be killed at that level (in fact it's impossible at that point) and the rats are easy to deal with if you don't rush into their little abode.

However what I don't understand the most here is how you call the gameplay ludicrous and cumbersome. So you're basically saying it has silly, slow and difficult to understand gameplay? Gameplay couldn't be any easier to grasp with Dark Souls. You block, you attack, you parry and you use equipment and items (firebombs, weapon enhancers) to give you an advantage in battle. The gameplay is solid. It's simply not a game where you rush into enemy groups.

[spirosz]

No, there is no scene like that, at least I don't remember it. It has it's overly grotesque "bosses", but it never tried to be "too dark".

Edit, I misread that, but I don't remember a valley like that, Valley of the Drakes... uh what else was there? 

Modifié par spirosz, 18 mars 2013 - 03:14 .

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Dark Souls has two areas that are nasty places, but not morbid per se. There isn't really any grotesque gore. Blighttown swamp is a horrible place...its filthy, its poisonous, its bug ridden and dreary. Thank goodness my Pyromancer had great resistance, and I had stored purple moss from gorgeous Darkroot Garden, but I still fought Quelagg poisoned a few times. If normal isn't damn hard enough. Then there is the area right before Blighttown, The Depths. It's like a natural sewage system of sorts. Or waterway. But nowhere near as rotten as the swamp. Demon Ruins had its own feel, although not nasty it was dry and had a certain feel.

Dark Souls' atmosphere comes a bit from environment, but also from knowing that anything could be awaiting you and until you know areas, you could die at any moment.

There are beautiful areas in Dark Souls, too. Firelink Shrine, Undead Parish, Anor Londo, the pristine Duke's Archives, secret area Ash Lake, Crystal Cave. Anor Londo is stunning.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

They probably meant Valley of Defilement in Demon's Souls.

[Megaton_Hope]

Elton John is dead wrote...

In otherwords you didn't experience much of the game or of the story.

Can't disagree with that one. Nor did I feel a desire to do so by that point, from any of what I had experienced.

I wonder how you'd fare with a game like Baldur's Gate which also contained similar challanges (i.e taking on certain enemies at low levels). The dragon isn't meant to be killed at that level (in fact it's impossible at that point) and the rats are easy to deal with if you don't rush into their little abode.

I wasn't having any particular problem dealing with the rats; I just lured them out one at a time and killed them on the bridge. It's the guys you encounter after the rats. (Although the way poisoning works seriously irritated me, since my character could only heal using the limited Estus Flasks.)

However what I don't understand the most here is how you call the gameplay ludicrous and cumbersome. So you're basically saying it has silly, slow and difficult to understand gameplay? Gameplay couldn't be any easier to grasp with Dark Souls. You block, you attack, you parry and you use equipment and items (firebombs, weapon enhancers) to give you an advantage in battle. The gameplay is solid. It's simply not a game where you rush into enemy groups.

And yet, it's a game where enemies typically spawn in groups, and where individual enemies require careful handling to avoid depleting your stamina or health. About the most bothersome thing I ran into before that point was a space where three of the guys with big shields and swords would spawn in one tight little area, so that luring one out generally meant having to deal with two.

@eroeru and Megaton

Okay we get it. You two have an extensive
library of rich vocabulary at your disposal. The English Gentlemen's
Club applauds you...

This is just the way I write. Sorry, English major.

Regarding the gameplay...

Well, here's the thing, right. I was playing the Steam version, and lacked any kind of instruction manual to which I might refer. I didn't have a controller to plug in. (For some reason, although I have a USB adapter for it, my Win 7 PC didn't want to accept my wireless 360 controller using the drivers Microsoft offers for that purpose.) I got basic attacks and some of the more rudimentary tactics (don't attack shields, wait for the enemy to attack, circle around back) easily enough. Problem is, the game would periodicaly tell me about new attacks or combos I should try, by using my X button or my trigger or whatever. Lacking either of those things, I would have to look up those attacks based on whatever key on the keyboard was chosen for that attack by default. Frustrating, because most of the keyboard seems to be flagged for some hotkey or other.

Which feature made trying to reshuffle key bindings manually a struggle, as well.

The equipment system that leaves you vulnerable to attacks from the things that are creeping up on you (from places you didn't see them when entering the area) also just pisses me off. Okay, so maybe I should reshuffle my inventory in areas I know are safe, but getting out of those menus in time to protect yourself is a pain.

[Corto81]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I wasn't having any particular problem dealing with the rats; I just lured them out one at a time and killed them on the bridge. It's the guys you encounter after the rats. (Although the way poisoning works seriously irritated me, since my character could only heal using the limited Estus Flasks.)

And yet, it's a game where enemies typically spawn in groups, and where individual enemies require careful handling to avoid depleting your stamina or health. About the most bothersome thing I ran into before that point was a space where three of the guys with big shields and swords would spawn in one tight little area, so that luring one out generally meant having to deal with two.

I still don't understand what the problem is.
The rats are easy to deal with, the skeletons as well.
It just takes patience and the will to get better. Once you master the combat, the skeletons, rats, the boar, zombies, everything in that area is really not that hard. You just avoid the Dark Knight atop the tower unless you really got the will to die 10 times on your first playthrough trying to beat him.

Everything with poisons, curses, toxins? You can't cure it with Estus Flasks, you have to cure it with proper herbs.

The point of the combat, and this is a part of why the game is so great, is that the combat is not cheap, and never feels cheap, but the game doesn't let you take it lightly... Even the crappiest mobs have the power to kill you if you take your guard down or approach the fight over-confidently.

Finally, about the equipment... I didn't have an issue that the game doesn't pause while on inventory...
If anything, it added more to the realism of the combat - you prepare before and if you wanna fiddle in the inventory, do it at your own risk.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Circle-strafing enemies is a big help. Block attacks and being patient when to strike is key. Manage stamina intensely...releasing block enables quicker regen of stamina.

Some enemies are best to be avoided until later in the game. Many of the high leveled ones for a given area don't respawn.

You won't cruise through areas. You head out, make progress, die, head out, die, head out, die, get further, die, head out further, die, etc. Some points you'll make steady progress but progress is generally slow. Level or farm from time to time.

If I made steady progress, I used to return all the way back to bonfires when low on flasks to be smart and save loss of souls, too.

Soon, you will find a friend who will help you and your stuff out.

[Eternal Phoenix]

@Megaton

Fair do's. Not everyone will enjoy the same games and clearly you didn't just rush into enemy encounters as some other people have.

My comment about your vocabulary? Half praise, half sarcasm. I just found it amusing seeing you and eroeru throw about such intricate words.

@Angel

I think those are the skeleton babies you're referring too. There's certainly no enemy in the game that throws their children at you. The skeleton babies spawn from a certain area in some shallow water and certainly aren't thrown at you. However they are neither laughable or ridiculous. They fit very well in with that area especially how swarms of them come from the water.

The game isn't ridiculously dark but there's no knights holding hands and jumping about in fields singing together. Lordran is a fallen civilization so the whole mood can be compared to what you would expect in an aftermath of an apocalypse I guess. You'll come across a few sane characters but others will be insane (or go insane as the game progresses) or house sinister motives in their hearts. Others have simply given up but then you get characters like Solaire and Siegmeyer who are quite jolly despite their "poor misfortune" in the words of Solaire himself.

However there's certainly a feeling of despair and desolation throughout the game as you pass through ruins (almost abandoned if not abandoned altogether) and meet the odd soul who makes their way back to the Firelink Shrine which is pretty much the last refuge in that land.

I wouldn't call the game depressing though. There are some pretty locations such as Anor Londo and Sen's Fortress and triumphing over enemies with the few friendly NPC phantoms adds a heroic and hopeful feel to everything as more and more people join you at the Firelink Shrine sharing their stories and help.

[eroeru]

When I accidentally killed the fire keeper in the covenant place after Quelaag, it was sorta depressing to realize that all other fire-keepers died because of that. Firelink Shrine holds a fire no longer.
(and don't tell me whether it's possible or not to restore the bonfires - although I believe it's not the case I'd really like to have some doubt about it... Doubt... Dark Souls really likes to play with the feeling)

@Megaton_Hope - Honestly, I realized mouse-keyboard controls were an unfeasible way to play from the very start. You'd have a much better and less cumbersome time dealing with any enemy from any direction if you get your controller working.

@Elton - I kinda like arguing with guys who know how to the most. As for myself, I'm not a native speaker and have some difficulties. And it doesn't help in clarity that for me the most influential book in English was Lord of the Rings. Given most of my experience with the language is from academic articles and from the aforementioned book by the linguist, my sentences do have the tendency to become messy yet sometimes even overly... "intricate".

Modifié par eroeru, 18 mars 2013 - 10:42 .

[eroeru]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 It fails to be compelling-ly dark.

From my biased-from-playing-the-game opinion, it does *not* fail to be compelling and believable. In sense of immersion and even realism (of interactions, possibilities to deal with stuff and of psychology mostly), I find it overshadows DA(2) and ME by far.
No, it's not silly nor does it go overboard in any way.

Modifié par eroeru, 18 mars 2013 - 11:22 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dark Souls: Souls that are fallen to the darkside.

[Eternal Phoenix]

@eroeru
That can't be possible. Killing a firekeeper doesn't lead to all the other fire-keepers dying. Only one is murdered in the course of the game so when you killed Qualaag's sister and then returned to the Firelink Shrine to find that firekeeper murdered, you must have thought it was your doing but it really wasn't.

All I can say is...



Can't believe you went the whole game with the bonfire at the central hub gone.

On my 6th playthrough now and just discovered that heading into the catacombs early can lead to an encounter with "Trusty" Patches pushing the drawbridges. I was suprised to see him up there as I had ventured into the catacombs early before (before the clerics venture into there). Naturally (knowing of his nature) I didn't trust him and even saw him playing about with the switch (making the bridge close and open) so I killed the f***er.

The clerics still ended up in the tomb of giants but there was no mention of Patches betraying them this time. So it's good to see the game recognized that I had killed Patches earlier. Petrus is pretending to be struck with worry (despite Rhea safe now) and she won't tell me the truth so I guess my current character will never learn of Petrus and his involvement.

Seriously I hate Patches that god-hating anti-clerical cur. I bet he'll be in Dark Souls 2 above a pit too (just like he was in Demon's Souls and he'll probably be a recurring gag throughout the series) but I won't waste time speaking to him. As soon as I see him the next game he's dead. (Although knowing From Software they might troll and make the Patches of Dark Souls 2 a good guy who really can be trusted)

And your grammar was fine BTW. Quite good too considering it's not your native tongue (which I would never have suspected had you not told me).

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Are there really weapon drops for killing the man who gives you the estus flask before he gives you the flask and the merchant in Undead Burg?

Also, ever notice all firekeepers have an impairment?

[Corto81]

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

Are there really weapon drops for killing the man who gives you the estus flask before he gives you the flask and the merchant in Undead Burg?

Also, ever notice all firekeepers have an impairment?

The undead merchant drops my favorite weapon in the game, and one of the best DEX based weapons, Uchigatana.
You can also buy it later from a different merchant.