375 réponses à ce sujet

[dversion]

MacroSpamMK wrote...

I hate feminists.
Doesn't really have much to do with this but I'm just throwing it out there.

Great opinion. Adds a lot to the discussion. Please leave.

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...

I don't really think you should strive to be personally attracted to fake, fictional characters in videogames. I mean I like the characters but increasing the size of boobs is juvinile and decreases the value of the characters as more eye-candy and less emotional grounded characters.

I buy the more eye-candy, but it doesn't decrease the depth of the character. That arguably happened to Ashley's character for separate reasons.

It also sends a message to women that this is what is expected in their fantasy universe. because remember this sin't just for us males, it's for everyone.

This isn't a women-specific message. Often in popular fiction the unrealistic expectation is established both ways.

[EnvyTB075]

Mr.House wrote...

Yup. LadyHawke, no mattert he class has muscle tone, which would not be bad... If Femshep in ME3 had muscle tone and looked liek a solider.

One of the reasons i prefer the walking animations in ME2. She actually looks like shes lugging the weight around with gusto. Just a pity when you put on the civvies it didn't quite equate.

Zkyire wrote...

OT so this is all I'll say on the matter: Male Shepard's default face is based on a model - it's an actual face. Femsheps was generated using the CC I believe. So they (femshep fans) wanted a more unique appearance.

If it weren't for the fact that most custom mansheps look atrocious, i'd agree, but i'd still prefer a custom look since honestly i kinda see that as a gameplay mechanic. Makes the character yours.

dversion wrote...

My friend, actually had a job
photoshopping the muscles away from Kira Knightly in a movie poster for
that King Arthur film where she had to use a bow and arrow. The actress
actually worked out for the role and on the poster they removed her
muscle tone.

Thats just downright insulting.


If true of course.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 12 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

This isn't a women-specific message. Often in popular fiction the unrealistic expectation is established both ways.

I think in this case, when you take characters, make them significantly more sexed up and make them wear heels into battle it is one sided.

[David7204]

dversion wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If Ashley and Liara have bigger chests then before, I can't really tell in the game. I wouldn't know at all if I didn't spend time here and didn't hear quotes from the art book.

She looks better. She does. And I appreciate that. I've never romanced her in ME 3 and don't intend to anytime soon, but I appreciate it nonetheless. Her attractiveness is attractive. It's a compelling part of her character, and I'm glad it's there. Same with Jack. Same with EDI.

I don't really think you should strive to be personally attracted to fake, fictional characters in videogames. I mean I like the characters but increasing the size of boobs is juvinile and decreases the value of the characters as more eye-candy and less emotional grounded characters. It also sends a message to women that this is what is expected in their fantasy universe. because remember this sin't just for us males, it's for everyone.

So you may have to sacrifice your 'appreciation' to respect the characters and the players.

And out it comes. I suspected we'd get here eventually.

What exactly do you think it is that causes people to spend hours on this forum and elsewhere discussing these characters? They do it because they love them and respect them. Their physical appearance is just as much a part of their appeal as it is for people in real life. Yes, the characters are fictional, but the ideas they represent and embody, including ideas concerning beauty, are absolutely just as real as any other idea. And yes, I appreciate those things.

As for the message it sends...I'm not a hypocrite. I won't lie and say being attractive doesn't make a very big difference. Because it does.

Modifié par David7204, 12 mars 2013 - 04:15 .

[dversion]

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...

I think in this case, when you take characters, make them significantly more sexed up and make them wear heels into battle it is one sided.

Well, what expectation are we talking about? I thought we were talking about the "this is how women should be" type of expection that one can receive from fiction. If so, then I don't think chose of battle attire affects anyone's expectation of women.

[CronoDragoon]

Is that really the same pic? Why'd they photoshop her eyebrows, lol?

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...

I think in this case, when you take characters, make them significantly more sexed up and make them wear heels into battle it is one sided.

Well, what expectation are we talking about? I thought we were talking about the "this is how women should be" type of expection that one can receive from fiction. If so, then I don't think chose of battle attire affects anyone's expectation of women.

I also refer you to the image i just posted.
There's all those negative aspects but at the end of the day, it also is just...dull. every woman has to have a skinny waist, large breasts because apparently that's all us males want. We should really be insulted by this stuff.

The idea that I won't like a character or stick to your game because you focus-tested this with 14 year old males and they said they wanted bigger chests.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

And out it comes. I suspected we'd get here eventually.

What exactly do you think it is that causes people to spend hours on this forum and elsewhere discussing these characters? They do it because they love them and respect them. Their physical appearance is just as much a part of their appeal as it is for people in real life. Yes, the characters are fictional, but the ideas they represent and embody, including ideas concerning beauty, are absolutely just as real as any other idea. And yes, I appreciate those things.

As for the message it sends...I'm not a hypocrite. I won't lie and say being attractive doesn't make a very big difference. Because it does.

I don't know what exactly came out...

I think you just repeated what I said save for the last line there.
I mean when they upsex the female characters, don't you feel just a bit insulted, like you wouldn't like these characters if they didn't have the biggest breasts or the skinniest waist? that its high on your priority list for your videogame females to look like unrealistic male fantasies?
That someone out there thinks you won't finish their game unless you see some damn cleavage?

[Zkyire]

Just fyi, the photoshopped poster was for the US release.

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...
I mean when they upsex the female characters, don't you feel just a bit insulted, like you wouldn't like these characters if they didn't have the biggest breasts or the skinniest waist? that its high on your priority list for your videogame females to look like unrealistic male fantasies?
That someone out there thinks you won't finish their game unless you see some damn cleavage?

Well, I won't argue that some design decisions are made with mass appeal in mind. But I don't personally get insulted because I know that they ARE looking for the 14 year olds who, as you say, will buy the game because of it, while BW knows I'm going to buy it anyway because I love the characters. The question is whether or not the characters' appearance changes enough to constitute a character personality change. For Ashley you might argue this is the case. For a character like Tali or Femshep, I see her go up half a size in cleavage and don't really care so long as the character writing is excellent.

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...
I mean when they upsex the female characters, don't you feel just a bit insulted, like you wouldn't like these characters if they didn't have the biggest breasts or the skinniest waist? that its high on your priority list for your videogame females to look like unrealistic male fantasies?
That someone out there thinks you won't finish their game unless you see some damn cleavage?

Well, I won't argue that some design decisions are made with mass appeal in mind. But I don't personally get insulted because I know that they ARE looking for the 14 year olds who, as you say, will buy the game because of it, while BW knows I'm going to buy it anyway because I love the characters. The question is whether or not the characters' appearance changes enough to constitute a character personality change. For Ashley you might argue this is the case. For a character like Tali or Femshep, I see her go up half a size in cleavage and don't really care so long as the character writing is excellent.

I think the end result is that you notice it, roll your eyes, possibly say "c'mon really?" and get on with your life.
I think the problem with that is when you're doing it with absoloutely everything and its such a constant barrage that even characters like Ashley have to be recreated to give kids boners. It makes a pretty big statement on how the creators of this world view the female form and may make us think that's how we're supposed to view it as well.

[David7204]

You are so determined to pretend to yourself that physical appearance doesn't matter, aren't you? And it's getting more and more transparent. We're at the point where the existence of a beautiful character in a story, yes with big breasts and a slim waste, is derided as a 'male fantasy.'

But you know there's a problem there, don't you? It's why you didn't answer my question earlier. Because you know it cuts both ways.

You keep saying it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. We like the characters because of the writing, not their appearance. It doesn't matter. But it does matter, doesn't it? Because if it didn't matter, you would be making such accusations based on appearances, would you? Because it cuts both ways.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

You are so determined to pretend to yourself that physical appearance doesn't matter, aren't you? And it's getting more and more transparent. We're at the point where the existence of a beautiful character in a story, yes with big breasts and a slim waste, is derided as a 'male fantasy.'

But you know there's a problem there, don't you? It's why you didn't answer my question earlier. Because you know it cuts both ways.

You keep saying it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. We like the characters because of the writing, not their appearance. It doesn't matter. But it does matter, doesn't it? Because if it didn't matter, you would be making such accusations based on appearances, would you? Because it cuts both ways.

Okay David. I never said it doesn't matter. Not once.
You keep debating things I never actually say.
I'm ending our debate.

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...

I think the end result is that you notice it, roll your eyes, possibly say "c'mon really?" and get on with your life.
I think the problem with that is when you're doing it with absoloutely everything and its such a constant barrage that even characters like Ashley have to be recreated to give kids boners. It makes a pretty big statement on how the creators of this world view the female form and may make us think that's how we're supposed to view it as well.

Hm, I guess I just don't find it to be a constant barrage. Ashley is really the only noticeable case for me. I've seen talk of Liara's changes, but the only difference I noticed from ME2 was a darker tone of blue.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 mars 2013 - 04:36 .

[David7204]

If we agree that it matters, then the answer is obvious. The characters were made more attractive (and more importantly, were attractive to begin with) because being attractive matters.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

Don't you see a bit of a problem in complaining that a female Shepard doesn't have enough muscle and complaining that Kaidan beefs up?

I'm horribly out of shape. I have more muscle than femShep. My best friend is 5'8" and about 155 lbs. She works out four days a week. She has a lot more muscle than femShep, and it is not bulky at all. FemShep looks like she's about 5'9" and weighs about 115 lbs. Ugh!  Soft around the middle. Well it isn't firm around the middle. Sunken around the middle, and the ribs are definitely showing.

She's hideous.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 mars 2013 - 04:38 .

[CronoDragoon]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
She's hideous.

Femshep is...?

Jeez, I thought she looked okay.

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...

I think the end result is that you notice it, roll your eyes, possibly say "c'mon really?" and get on with your life.
I think the problem with that is when you're doing it with absoloutely everything and its such a constant barrage that even characters like Ashley have to be recreated to give kids boners. It makes a pretty big statement on how the creators of this world view the female form and may make us think that's how we're supposed to view it as well.

Hm, I guess I just don't find it to be a constant barrage. Ashley is really the only noticeable case for me. I've seen talk of Liara's changes, but the only difference I noticed from ME2 was a darker tone of blue.

I think it's because we're not women so its not that obvious because it's catered to us. I only began to notice it after actually talking to women and hearing their opinions.

It's a problem and I really hope ME3 is the peak before they realize that while attractiveness is fine for love interests, they don't have to go overboard with it and treat their audience like they're idiots.

[David7204]

And they don't do that. It's not like ME 3 is a rap song. Sexuality is treated very well.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

CronoDragoon wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
She's hideous.

Femshep is...?

Jeez, I thought she looked okay.

I'm looking at her arms and legs and the way her body is put together. It's just wrong for a soldier. I got a good look again in the casino in that horrible dress she had to wear.

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...
I think it's because we're not women so its not that obvious because it's catered to us. I only began to notice it after actually talking to women and hearing their opinions.

It's a problem and I really hope ME3 is the peak before they realize that while attractiveness is fine for love interests, they don't have to go overboard with it and treat their audience like they're idiots.

I think women are generally more critical anyway, lol.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

And they don't do that. It's not like ME 3 is a rap song. Sexuality is treated very well.

We clearly disagree on that.
You want your female characters to look unrealstically skinny and busty for you, I want the women to look... well like women.

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...
I think it's because we're not women so its not that obvious because it's catered to us. I only began to notice it after actually talking to women and hearing their opinions.

It's a problem and I really hope ME3 is the peak before they realize that while attractiveness is fine for love interests, they don't have to go overboard with it and treat their audience like they're idiots.

I think women are generally more critical anyway, lol.

Probably because they're the ones who have to put up with this crap.