375 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

dversion wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And they don't do that. It's not like ME 3 is a rap song. Sexuality is treated very well.

We clearly disagree on that.
You want your female characters to look unrealstically skinny and busty for you, I want the women to look... well like women.

I would like characters to be attractive, yes.

What you want is 'thinking slim waists and buxom women are attractive' to be a fault confined to 14-year-old basement dwelleing acne-ridden, juvinille losers. And that is just simply not true, is it?

The reality is that it's a perfectly acceptable and mature sexual preference, and there's absolutely nothing wrong for thinking it.

That's the core of this, isn't it?

And do not tell me "I didn't say that." You've very heavily implied it quite a few times.

If it isn't slim wastes and buxom chests, it would be something else. The reality is every culture and every person is going to find something attractive, and not all people are going to have it. And storytellers are going to put attractive characters in their stories that appeal to their audiences. As they should.

That is the end of it. Stories are going to have characters generally more attractive than people in real life. Period.

Modifié par David7204, 12 mars 2013 - 05:00 .

[EnvyTB075]

David7204 wrote...

dversion wrote...

David7204 wrote...

And they don't do that. It's not like ME 3 is a rap song. Sexuality is treated very well.

We clearly disagree on that.
You want your female characters to look unrealstically skinny and busty for you, I want the women to look... well like women.

I would like characters to be attractive, yes.

What you want is 'thinking slim waists and buxom women are attractive' to be a fault confined to 14-year-old basement dwelleing acne-ridden, juvinille losers. And that is just simply not true, is it?

The reality is that it's a perfectly acceptable and mature sexual preference, and there's absolutely nothing wrong for thinking it.

That's the core of this, isn't it?

And do not tell me "I didn't say that." You've very heavily implied it quite a few times.

If it isn't slim wastes and buxom chests, it would be something else. The reality is every culture and every person is going to find something attractive, and not all people are going to have it. And storytellers are going to put attractive characters in their stories.

That is the end of it. Stories are going to have characters generally more attractive than people in real life. Period.

Theres a difference between a character that has a REASON for their overt sexual attraction and changing and creating existing/new characters to appeal to that basement dwelling archetype.

Existing characters don't just magically become supermodels in between games due to improvements in visual clarity, and cameltoes don't just appear on new ones as a result of creating the overall look. These changes and implementations were purposefully implemented.

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...

That is the end of it. Stories are going to have characters generally more attractive than people in real life. Period.

Ashley was already attractive, though. Her new enhanced attractiveness is purely superficial; make-up and a new hairstyle. It's pretty unnecessary, and it doesn't really mesh with her character.

[dversion]

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified, even when those characters are already defined, treats us like undersexed 14 year-olds. If you need virtual female characters to be unrealistically proportioned in order for you to enjoy those characters then all the best to you. The industry is there to cater to your desires.

I'm going to tell you what I think and my opinion. Assume I imply anything you wish.
You continue to argue against points I never make.

David, I'm sure you're a fine person but I really can't debate with you any more.

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified

Who's unrealistically sex-ified?

[David7204]

CronoDragoon wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That is the end of it. Stories are going to have characters generally more attractive than people in real life. Period.

Ashley was already attractive, though. Her new enhanced attractiveness is purely superficial; make-up and a new hairstyle. It's pretty unnecessary, and it doesn't really mesh with her character.

We need to make up our minds on this. Because I am really getting tired of going back and forth on this and hearing different things depending on what's convienant the time.

Once and for all. Does attractiveness matter for characters or does it not?

If it does, I shouldn't be hearing comments like this that say it's 'purely superficial.'

Modifié par David7204, 12 mars 2013 - 05:13 .

[dversion]

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified

Who's unrealistically sex-ified?

Liara and Ashley first come to mind.
They take a lot of liberties with their proportions and it's not as if they were somehow unattractive before.

They also make Jack's boobs bigger because... why the hell not.

[CronoDragoon]

David7204 wrote...

We need to make up our minds on this. Because I am really getting tired of going back and forth on this and hearing different things depending on what's convienant the time.

Once and for all. Does attractiveness matter for characters or does it not?

If it does, I shouldn't be hearing comments like this that say it's 'purely superficial.'

Yes, attractiveness matters. But it's not a linear relationship. Eventually, if you keep trying to make characters more and more attractive, it starts to become at odds with their actual personality, like Ashley in ME3.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 12 mars 2013 - 05:24 .

[David7204]

dversion wrote...

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified, even when those characters are already defined, treats us like undersexed 14 year-olds. If you need virtual female characters to be unrealistically proportioned in order for you to enjoy those characters then all the best to you. The industry is there to cater to your desires.

I'm going to tell you what I think and my opinion. Assume I imply anything you wish.
You continue to argue against points I never make.

David, I'm sure you're a fine person but I really can't debate with you any more.

A few pages back, I said word-for-word that there was no problem with a story full of attractive characters. And you agreed. You agreed it isn't a problem. Do you remember that? 

And now I say the same thing. That I want characters to be attractive. (As you said, it isn't a problem) And you give me this crap. That making a story full of attractive characters is catering to stupid 14 year olds, and I'm in the wrong for wanting it.

So which is it? What is the problem?

The problem is not waists and breasts. Because as I pointed it, if it wasn't that, it would be something else. As I pointed out, every culture and every person is going to find something attractive. Do you deny any of that?

Modifié par David7204, 12 mars 2013 - 05:24 .

[CronoDragoon]

dversion wrote...

Liara and Ashley first come to mind.
They take a lot of liberties with their proportions and it's not as if they were somehow unattractive before.

They also make Jack's boobs bigger because... why the hell not.

Jack's boobs were pressed down by those leather straps before so I'm not sure that's the case.

Like I said, I don't find Liara unrealistically sexified, at least any moreso than Asari already were. As for Ashley, perhaps unrealistic in terms of her character, if that's what you mean. I don't think anyone's unrealistically proportioned in terms of the human body in general.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dversion wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

dversion wrote...

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified

Who's unrealistically sex-ified?

Liara and Ashley first come to mind.
They take a lot of liberties with their proportions and it's not as if they were somehow unattractive before.

They also make Jack's boobs bigger because... why the hell not.

Exactly and they didn't need to do this. That's what's baffling. Ashley looked like a real woman in ME1 and ME2.

Aside from the damsel in distress trope, Liara was fine in ME1. Her body proportions were right. The facial detailing in the graphics engine got better in ME2 and 3, but I actually preferred the ME2 LotSB look the best for her face. The body alterations were totally unnecessary.

Jack.... ah Wonderbra! <_< It didn't fit her character especially since it looked like she bound them in ME3.

[David7204]

Jack looked great in ME 3.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

dversion wrote...

I'm not going to imply anything.

I was stating that the people who make characters unrealistically sexified, even when those characters are already defined, treats us like undersexed 14 year-olds. If you need virtual female characters to be unrealistically proportioned in order for you to enjoy those characters then all the best to you. The industry is there to cater to your desires.

I'm going to tell you what I think and my opinion. Assume I imply anything you wish.
You continue to argue against points I never make.

David, I'm sure you're a fine person but I really can't debate with you any more.

A few pages back, I said word-for-word that there was no problem with a story full of attractive characters. And you agreed. You agreed it isn't a problem.

And now I say the same thing. That I want characters to be attractive. And you give me this crap. That making a story full of attractive characters is catering to stupid 14 year olds, and I'm in the wrong for wanting it.

So which is it?

Okay if you read what I said was that there wasn't a problem having attractive characters, it's when that becomes the norm, when the attractive characters need to be more and more attractive, unrealstically prorportioned and beinged designed with sex appeal first and foremost without consideration of any other core aspect.

It gets worse when the attractive norm isn't attractive any more because suddenly here's a character who's supposed to be REALLY attractive but compared to all the other busy ladies out there she has to be even busty-er.

The crew of Mass Effect 1 and 2 were fine. Espeically in 2, the characters were designed with their personality in mind, no one was really unattractive.

Mass effect 3 we saw those same characters redesigned, not because of who their character was but who their audience was. thus we get them unrealistically sexed up for no other reason that maybe more kids will buy this damn thing.

[CronoDragoon]

Maybe I didn't notice it because - being a Dragon Age fan before Mass Effect - I've seen this problem in a more obvious form. Boobs in the Dragon Age series are almost comical.

[Rikketik]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
6) Why didn't they change Sheploo?

Because he was already modelled after, well, a model. In fact, FemShep's redesign can be seen as finally addressing the inequality between Sheploo and FemShep. They must've spent a significant amount of hours into designing the first, while the latter was thrown together in a few minutes time.

Whether she actually looks good... well, that's another matter entirely. I don't think she does, at least not ingame. Her model certainly could've used more bulk, especially her arms and midriff. Nothing wrong with having a slim body type and the absence of body fat makes sense too, but the almost complete lack of muscles doesn't. I'm not quite seeing the boob job some others talked about a few pages back. Her breasts looked bigger in ME2, correct, but seem to be smaller again in ME3. Perhaps it's the breast plate that makes them look bigger? Which is also a bit silly, by the way. Not all armor pieces have it, luckily, but a chest piece with boobs shaped into them? Do those even exist in real life?

As for her face, well, I have to admit that I'm no stranger myself to designing FemSheps with relatively heavy make-up around the eye, to make them stand out more. But that's basically it. The rest of her face looks natural. Default FemShep on the other hand... I don't really know how to describe it, but she looks... shiny? If I wouldn't know better, I'd say her face would crack the instance she smiled.

As for the other female party members... Liara got a boob job, although I don't know if she got one between ME1 and ME2 or ME2 and ME3. It's not really that obvious, though, due to her outfit. The focus still seems to be her face and especially her eyes, which always have been a big part of her design. So I am glad about that.

Ashley obviously got a boob job, and also seems to have coated her face with plastic. The new hair was rather unneccessary too, although I think it's the least of her design problems in ME3.

You know, now that I think of it, it would've been nice if she switched between hair models. In a bun while in battle and down while on the Normandy. At least then the designers would've shown that, yes, they want Ashley to look a bit more glamorous, but at least then her new look didn't undermine the fact that, first and foremost, she's a soldier and a practical, no nonsense one at that.

I'm not sure about EDI myself. Her body is oversexualized, no doubt, but it does make a certain sense in story. The question is then whether her body was designed first and then the backstory to serve as an excuse, or first the backstory and then the body. If it's the latter, well, then they still overdid it, but at least it wouldn't be so blatently played to titillate.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

Jack looked great in ME 3.

I liked her resdeign because it was made with her character in mind. She was more relaxed and grew as a character. Her boobs being larger didn't really make sense for that.

Do you get the difference?

[David7204]

So let me get this straight. There's no problem in having a story full of attractive characters. But there's a problem when being attractive is 'the norm' in the story. Is that about right?

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

So let me get this straight. There's no problem in having a story full of attractive characters. But there's a problem when being attractive is 'the norm' in the story. Is that about right?

What happens when you want a character who's apticularly attractive? do they have to be even more attractive then the attractive people?

But the main point is there's attractive, i think most of the crew of Firefly is 'attractive.' Then there's sexualized, creating a character or changing a character for no other reason than attracting (usually male) views. There's one character who sexualizes herself on the show but that's a core part of the character. It's not a core part of Liara's or Ashley's character to make their breasts larger.

It's demeaning to people who liked those characters and the universe.

[dversion]

Gangnam Style wrote...

so what is this thread even about anymore

the topic is whether or not characters, paticularly female characters, should be sexualized.
If that makes the character's weaker over all or is actually better because they appeal to more people.

[Rikketik]

dversion wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Jack looked great in ME 3.

I liked her resdeign because it was made with her character in mind. She was more relaxed and grew as a character. Her boobs being larger didn't really make sense for that.

I don't think her boobs are larger. She just finally found something to support them with. No, if there's one thing that doesn't make sense, is that her nipples are poking through for some reason. While not uncommon in real life when wearing tight clothes (and no bra), it doesn't add much to her design other than even more sex appeal. I think she could've done without them.

[David7204]

Suppose I make a video game with a character who has large breasts and a slim waste from the beginning. She's a fully developed, well-written character. Tell me, is that 'sexualization' or not?

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

Suppose I make a video game with a character who has large breasts and a slim waste from the beginning. She's a fully developed, well-written character. Tell me, is that 'sexualization' or not?

Well since i have nothing to go on but your describing her breasts and waste first and foremost then, at the moment, yeah. Because she is literally nothing but breasts and a slim waste.

[David7204]

God dammit, how much detail do you need? She's a fully developed, well written character, okay? She's more than her breasts and waist. I'm not going to write two pages on this.

[TheWerdna]

TomY90 wrote...

TheWerdna wrote...

At least one race, quarians, had only a female member shown until Mass Effect 3

ME2 was the game they introduced male Quarians actually

From what I know everyone except the Vorcha, drell, elcor and volus have had female versions of there characters now

(thats saying it would be weird to see a female vorcha)

Ya, saying Me3 was a typo. I meant to say ME2