375 réponses à ce sujet

[M Hedonist]

Let's all talk about female Batarians instead, yes? I bet they have four breasts.

I'm only making it worse, aren't I?

[DeinonSlayer]

dversion wrote...

I understand this fact. I think it just shows the writer's bias when they only do males for every race out there. Now that they have most races covered I would hope they would concentrate on filling in the blanks. And if they don't have time to do that then at least not make males the default for every single race we run into.

Asari are female-only. In ME1, the only Quarian we see is female. They didn't default everyone.

[RedBeardJim]

David7204 wrote...

What is the point here? Because I'm not seeing any reasoning why this is inherently bad other than 'male default is sexist and sexist is bad.'

Hence my post, explaining why 'sexism' is natural, justified, and in any case innate. And which I'm not sure was understood, given that 'sexist' is still being used as an insult.

Your post did nothing of the sort. Your post explained your view that men and women are different, and are perceived differently. Nobody was arguing against this viewpoint, either before or after you entered the thread.

"Male = default" and "female = other" is an inherently sexist viewpoint, and not one you have addressed at all, other than blatantly stating it as some sort of "norm", which doesn't prevent it from being an inherently sexist viewpoint.

Modifié par RedBeardJim, 11 mars 2013 - 10:24 .

[dversion]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

dversion wrote...

I understand this fact. I think it just shows the writer's bias when they only do males for every race out there. Now that they have most races covered I would hope they would concentrate on filling in the blanks. And if they don't have time to do that then at least not make males the default for every single race we run into.

Asari are female-only. In ME1, the only Quarian we see is female. They didn't default everyone.

The Asari are clearly a race made by men for men (if you read the art book talking about them it's clear to see.) which doesn't really help all that much for their universe. It sort of feels pandering but most are well written and their beleifs and society is well codex'd so it deflates the issue a bit.

[David7204]

No. You're the ones who aren't addressing.

All you've done is lay out this trope 'male default' and make claims that it's 'inherently sexist.' That I and everyone else should just assume it's horrible because men and women are treated differently. You've continually used 'sexist' as an implied insult. You've given me zero reasoning or evidence. All I've seen is that 'It's sexist, so it's bad.'

So I provided a example of men and women being treated differently, and yet it's an example accepted and approved by all of us. Thus, the fact that men and women are treated differently is clearly not the core issue here, is it? Otherwise, it would be a problem for both examples, not just the first one, wouldn't it?

Modifié par David7204, 11 mars 2013 - 10:33 .

[IC-07]

dversion wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

dversion wrote...

I understand this fact. I think it just shows the writer's bias when they only do males for every race out there. Now that they have most races covered I would hope they would concentrate on filling in the blanks. And if they don't have time to do that then at least not make males the default for every single race we run into.

Asari are female-only. In ME1, the only Quarian we see is female. They didn't default everyone.

The Asari are clearly a race made by men for men (if you read the art book talking about them it's clear to see.) which doesn't really help all that much for their universe. It sort of feels pandering but most are well written and their beleifs and society is well codex'd so it deflates the issue a bit.

How about we get a full male race in the next ME  game? In another galaxy. What do you think?

Modifié par IC-07, 11 mars 2013 - 10:33 .

[IC-07]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're the ones who aren't addressing.

All you've done is lay out this trope 'male default' and make claims that it's 'inherently sexist.' That I and everyone else should just assume it's horrible because men and women are treated differently. You've continually used 'sexist' as an implied insult. You've given me zero reasoning or evidence. All I've seen is that 'It's sexist, so it's bad.'

So I provided a example of men and women being different, being treated differently, and yet being accepted by all of us. Thus, the fact that men and women are treated differently is clearly not the core issue here, is it?

Common sense doesn't work on BSN  Good thing you tried, though.

[Tom Lehrer]

While we have not directly seen a female of every race who is to say they need to look any different then the males to us humans? After all if you saw two frogs would you be able to tell the male and female apart?

[Village_Idiot]

Hey guys, what's going on in this...

David7204 wrote...

The male version is the default version of pretty much everything, with a few exceptions like nurse or secretary. Nothing at all new in Mass Effect.

[**image spam deleted**]

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 12 mars 2013 - 02:53 .

[IC-07]

Where is Ninja Stan? Should be here by now.

[Barquiel]

IC-07 wrote...

dversion wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

dversion wrote...

I understand this fact. I think it just shows the writer's bias when they only do males for every race out there. Now that they have most races covered I would hope they would concentrate on filling in the blanks. And if they don't have time to do that then at least not make males the default for every single race we run into.

Asari are female-only. In ME1, the only Quarian we see is female. They didn't default everyone.

The Asari are clearly a race made by men for men (if you read the art book talking about them it's clear to see.) which doesn't really help all that much for their universe. It sort of feels pandering but most are well written and their beleifs and society is well codex'd so it deflates the issue a bit.

How about we get a full male race in the next ME  game? In another galaxy. What do you think?

Well, the drell were specifically created to be love interests for femShep.

As for the oversexualization of the asari...yes, we see some asari dancers (in places where you'd expect them...like Choras Den or Aria's club). But 95% of the asari in the series are quite modestly dressed. Apart from the strippers, Benezia and Samara, most of them don't even show cleavage...and even the strippers are conservatively dressed (by stripper standards ). Liara is also one of the few female characters to wear real armor!

Modifié par Barquiel, 11 mars 2013 - 10:36 .

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're the ones who aren't addressing.

All you've done is lay out this trope 'male default' and make claims that it's 'inherently sexist.' That I and everyone else should just assume it's horrible because men and women are treated differently. You've continually used 'sexist' as an implied insult. You've given me zero reasoning or evidence. All I've seen is that 'It's sexist, so it's bad.'

So I provided a example of men and women being different, being treated differently, and yet being accepted by all of us. Thus, the fact that men and women are treated differently is clearly not the core issue here, is it?

I don't feel like anyone here is insulting you. The beleif that men are 'superior' let's say and should be the main face of every race is one that's not based on objectionable fact and is only based on an incorrect, harmful perception. This is the meaning of sexism, when you take your prejudeces and apply them as a sort of fact or truth that's (in this case literally) universal.

Again the end result in this case is that you have a weaker, one sided look at a fictional world we're supposed to be engaged in.

[dversion]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

While we have not directly seen a female of every race who is to say they need to look any different then the males to us humans? After all if you saw two frogs would you be able to tell the male and female apart?

That would be an easy way to solve some issues but that could be explained in a codex somewhere.

[David7204]

I didn't say I was being insulted. I said 'sexist' was being used as an insult.

Nor does 'male default' imply men are superior. It only says just that - that male is default.

We're getting closer to the core of it, though.

[dversion]

David7204 wrote...

I didn't say I was being insulted. I said 'sexist' was being used as an insult.

Nor does 'male default' imply men are superior. It only says just that - that male is default.

We're getting closer to the core of it, though.

Oh, okay. that's your stance. you're not someone trying to debate perceptions of gender you're just sort of a bad, sexist, person. All right then.

[Riot Inducer]

The reason why male tends to be the "default" is because of human history and bias it imparts on us. Yeah, it's sexist, but you can't fault the writers for it. How many matriarchal societies have there been in human history? How many patriarchal?

If we were to encounter a group of aliens of a new species in mass effect and they were all female it would raise some questions. Are they matriarchal in society? Are they mono-gendered like Asari? We would want it to be explained since it's something that is rare in human history, and as such a bit foreign to us.

On flip side, consdier when we first met batarians in Bring Down the Sky. Did you question why they were all male or did you just start shooting?

[RedBeardJim]

David7204 wrote...

No. You're the ones who aren't addressing.

All you've done is lay out this trope 'male default' and make claims that it's 'inherently sexist.' That I and everyone else should just assume it's horrible because men and women are treated differently. You've continually used 'sexist' as an implied insult. You've given me zero reasoning or evidence. All I've seen is that 'It's sexist, so it's bad.'

So I provided a example of men and women being treated differently, and yet it's an example accepted and approved by all of us. Thus, the fact that men and women are treated differently is clearly not the core issue here, is it? Otherwise, it would be a problem for both examples, not just the first one, wouldn't it?

Your example, of you finding females attractive and not males, has, again, absolutely nothing to do with the viewpoint (which, again, you stated as being "absolutely true") of males being seen as "default" while females are seen as "special". The one is your personal sexual preference, which is irrelevant to the discussion. The other is a pervasive societal viewpoint that devalues half the population in favor of the other half. That is a sexist, and harmful, viewpoint.

 But congratulations on derailing the thread, I guess?

[What a Succulent Ass]

dversion wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

While we have not directly seen a female of every race who is to say they need to look any different then the males to us humans? After all if you saw two frogs would you be able to tell the male and female apart?

That would be an easy way to solve some issues but that could be explained in a codex somewhere.

I know I said I was leaving, but this **** is too hilarious to pass up

Actually, depending on the species of frog, yes. Very easily in fact, because amphibians tend to exhibit extreme sexual dimorphism. This topic has come up upteen times already, but for Mass Effect species, (especially those like drell and salarians), it would be quite easy to delineate males and females without resorting to slapping breasts on everything (which was, IIRC, why female turians weren't originally modelled--they didn't know how to make them  ~feminine enough). If it's an issue of disk space and they were forced to restrict each species to one model, there's no reason that couldn't be a female model. 

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 11 mars 2013 - 10:44 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

IC-07 wrote...

How about we get a full male race in the next ME  game? In another galaxy. What do you think?

As long as they're not like the Drell. Men get blue-painted supermodels with boobs that get bigger with age. Women get scaley, fish-eyed frog-lizards with what looks like raw muscle on their neck and a gargling voice. Also, their skin causes a reactive rash. Sexy!

[RedBeardJim]

Riot Inducer wrote...
On flip side, consdier when we first met batarians in Bring Down the Sky. Did you question why they were all male or did you just start shooting?

I started shooting, because they were shooting at me. I didn't know if they were male or female. I still don't.

[dversion]

Random Jerkface wrote...

dversion wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

While we have not directly seen a female of every race who is to say they need to look any different then the males to us humans? After all if you saw two frogs would you be able to tell the male and female apart?

That would be an easy way to solve some issues but that could be explained in a codex somewhere.

I know I said I was leaving, but this **** is too hilarious to pass up

Actually, depending on the species of frog, yes. Very easily in fact, because amphibians tend to exhibit extreme sexual dimorphism. This topic has come up upteen times already, but for Mass Effect species, (especially those like drell and salarians), it would be quite easy to delineate males and females without resorting to slapping breasts on everything (which was, IIRC, why female turians weren't originally modelled--they didn't know how to make them  ~feminine enough). If it's an issue of disk space and they were forced to restrict each species to one model, there's no reason that couldn't be a female model. 

The image of someone taking a handfull of boobs and slapping them to the chest of a drell is very amusing.

[dversion]

Riot Inducer wrote...

On flip side, consdier when we first met batarians in Bring Down the Sky. Did you question why they were all male or did you just start shooting?

I actually literally played bring down the sky for the first time yesterday so I already had these thoughts brewing before then.

[David7204]

RedBeardJim wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. You're the ones who aren't addressing.

All you've done is lay out this trope 'male default' and make claims that it's 'inherently sexist.' That I and everyone else should just assume it's horrible because men and women are treated differently. You've continually used 'sexist' as an implied insult. You've given me zero reasoning or evidence. All I've seen is that 'It's sexist, so it's bad.'

So I provided a example of men and women being treated differently, and yet it's an example accepted and approved by all of us. Thus, the fact that men and women are treated differently is clearly not the core issue here, is it? Otherwise, it would be a problem for both examples, not just the first one, wouldn't it?

Your example, of you finding females attractive and not males, has, again, absolutely nothing to do with the viewpoint (which, again, you stated as being "absolutely true") of males being seen as "default" while females are seen as "special". The one is your personal sexual preference, which is irrelevant to the discussion. The other is a pervasive societal viewpoint that devalues half the population in favor of the other half. That is a sexist, and harmful, viewpoint.

But congratulations on derailing the thread, I guess?

You are really going to tell me with a straight face that being sexually attracted to one sex and not the other is not 'pervasive' throughout society? 

And wrong again. You know what that 'viewpoint' does have everything to do with? Whether sexism is inherently a bad thing. Because if it isn't, then your arguments that 'male default' is bad simply because it's sexist fall apart.

Modifié par David7204, 11 mars 2013 - 10:52 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Seven Months ago, Random Jerkface wrote...

Assuming that the average ME fan is too thick to pick up the difference between male and female voices, sexual dimorphism in this context would be quite hard to miss. The salarians, for example, are amphibious organisms that lay large clutches of eggs at a time. Since they are an r-selected species, female members are likely to be significantly larger than the males are to accommodate the strain of brooding (this could also apply to the krogan). Drell are reptilian, so perhaps drell women are generally of subdued colour, are thinner and taller, and lack a dewlap. Turians are based on birds of prey, so it's unlikely the males would be significantly larger than females, but ramping down the head fringe (or mandibles) is more than sufficient to indicate sex. There's no need to add ****** and lipstick. It's not that hard.

[What a Succulent Ass]

dversion wrote...

The image of someone taking a handfull of boobs and slapping them to the chest of a drell is very amusing.

ANYTHING MORE THAN A HANDFUL IS A WAAAASTE