where would you put Wrex in that list?Artifex_Imperius wrote...
1. samara - trained warrior class w/ biotic as main weapon. +asari affinity to biotics
2. javik - trained warrior class w/ biotic as main to secondary weapon. +prothean affinity
3. morinth - trained w/ biotic as main weapon. +asari affinity to biotics
4. liara - a scientist - using biotics as main weapon. + asari affinity
5. jack - not properly trained biotics but also powerful biotics as mainweapon
7. thane, shepard, kaidan, miranda and jacob - trained biotics but also use biotics as secondary.
Asari can never be discounted. biotics is a basic education in asari culture a 100 years to learn.
CODEX: Even Protheans saw ASARI potential to easily become VERY POWERFUL BIOTICS.
who is the better biotic?
Débuté par
jadonbond
, mars 12 2013 12:17
#76
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:25
arial
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Retour en haut
#77
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:26
o Ventus
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Protip: Miranda never flaunts her Biotics as anything special. She ony states that her Biotics are advanced for a human. She's above average, but she isn't on Samara or Jack's level.
I would place her with Kaidan and (Sentinel) Shepard.
I would place her with Kaidan and (Sentinel) Shepard.
#78
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:26
crimzontearz
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can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
#79
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:27
Sideria
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Sideria wrote...
arial wrote...
not word for word, but I do remember the point it was gettibng across.crimzontearz wrote...
you sure you remember that convo right?
just like I remember what I learned in university, but I can't repeat the Proff's lecture word for word
+1
I remember it the same way.
Here :
Kaidan said than is L2 implant punch better than L3 except for Shepard
-> implies (Adept/Sentinel/Vanguard) Shepard is better.
#80
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:29
crimzontearz
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spiking higher ≠ better bioticSideria wrote...
Sideria wrote...
arial wrote...
not word for word, but I do remember the point it was gettibng across.crimzontearz wrote...
you sure you remember that convo right?
just like I remember what I learned in university, but I can't repeat the Proff's lecture word for word
+1
I remember it the same way.
Here :
Kaidan said than is L2 implant punch better than L3 except for Shepard
-> implies (Adept/Sentinel/Vanguard) Shepard is better.
Battista is probably physically stronger than, say, Bruce Lee was......but is he aso the better fighter? unlikely
Modifié par crimzontearz, 12 mars 2013 - 01:30 .
#81
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:30
Artifex_Imperius
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arial wrote...
where would you put Wrex in that list?Artifex_Imperius wrote...
1. samara - trained warrior class w/ biotic as main weapon. +asari affinity to biotics
2. javik - trained warrior class w/ biotic as main to secondary weapon. +prothean affinity
3. morinth - trained w/ biotic as main weapon. +asari affinity to biotics
4. liara - a scientist - using biotics as main weapon. + asari affinity
5. jack - not properly trained biotics but also powerful biotics as mainweapon
7. thane, shepard, kaidan, miranda and jacob - trained biotics but also use biotics as secondary.
Asari can never be discounted. biotics is a basic education in asari culture a 100 years to learn.
CODEX: Even Protheans saw ASARI potential to easily become VERY POWERFUL BIOTICS.
id place wrex with shepard! coz in stroyline they prefer to always use their weapons than their biotic abilities for combat.
#82
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:30
NeonFlux117
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crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
#83
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:31
crimzontearz
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jury won gold with broken bones.......NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
#84
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:32
Riot Inducer
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Well here's my take on it.
1. Jack, the sheer biotic power she can put out is really second to none, she doesn't have the expertise of some of the others but I don't think anyone else could match her raw power.
2. Samara, hundreds of years of experience fighting and using her powers leads to one deadly biotic.
3. Kaidan, he's been noted by other characters constantly for how strong his biotics are even if they weren't terribly useful in gameplay until ME3.
4. Liara, she knows how to throw down with the best of em but I always felt her true strength was her expertise, be it with ancient tech or with intelligence, not her biotic power.
5. Wrex, he doesn't use his biotics a whole lot but the mere fact that he has them makes him a Battlemaster, one of the most fearsome warriors in the galaxy.
6. Miranda, her biotics are quite advanced, "for a human" which, while good, doesn't make her terribly exceptional next to powerhouses like Samara.
7. Thane, he's a biotic, but like Wrex it doesn't seem to be the selling point of his combat abilities. And to be honest it's hard to compare him to the other biotics because it's really not a huge part of his character.
8. Jacob, He has...pull? Really his biotics were nearly non-existent.
I don't have Javik so I can't evaluate him.
1. Jack, the sheer biotic power she can put out is really second to none, she doesn't have the expertise of some of the others but I don't think anyone else could match her raw power.
2. Samara, hundreds of years of experience fighting and using her powers leads to one deadly biotic.
3. Kaidan, he's been noted by other characters constantly for how strong his biotics are even if they weren't terribly useful in gameplay until ME3.
4. Liara, she knows how to throw down with the best of em but I always felt her true strength was her expertise, be it with ancient tech or with intelligence, not her biotic power.
5. Wrex, he doesn't use his biotics a whole lot but the mere fact that he has them makes him a Battlemaster, one of the most fearsome warriors in the galaxy.
6. Miranda, her biotics are quite advanced, "for a human" which, while good, doesn't make her terribly exceptional next to powerhouses like Samara.
7. Thane, he's a biotic, but like Wrex it doesn't seem to be the selling point of his combat abilities. And to be honest it's hard to compare him to the other biotics because it's really not a huge part of his character.
8. Jacob, He has...pull? Really his biotics were nearly non-existent.
I don't have Javik so I can't evaluate him.
#85
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:32
arial
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Better then Kaidan? Yes, better then Samara/jack/Liara/Wrex/javik? no.Sideria wrote...
Sideria wrote...
arial wrote...
not word for word, but I do remember the point it was gettibng across.crimzontearz wrote...
you sure you remember that convo right?
just like I remember what I learned in university, but I can't repeat the Proff's lecture word for word
+1
I remember it the same way.
Here :
Kaidan said than is L2 implant punch better than L3 except for Shepard
-> implies (Adept/Sentinel/Vanguard) Shepard is better.
#86
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:35
NeonFlux117
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crimzontearz wrote...
jury won gold with broken bones.......NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
#87
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:37
crimzontearz
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I have seen what he can do with his arms man.....NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
jury won gold with broken bones.......NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
#88
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:37
MacroSpamMK
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arial wrote...
No, they would then change the dialogue: like how in ME1 Kaidan says "I was asigned to the Normandy as I am the strongest Biotic in the alliance", unless Shepard is a Biotic, in which Kaidan says "other then you, Im the most powerful Biotic we have".Rhayak wrote...
arial wrote...
once again, lore states Jack is the most Powerful human Biotic
Bah, i think that can only be valid because Shepard is not canonized as Adept.
jack was genetically engineered, Shepard was not.
saying Shepard is a more powerful Biotic then Jack is like saying a Kit-Kat bar is more filling then a plate of turkey.
sure, a Kit-kat bar tastes great, but it does not have the level of nutrition turkey has
Shepard is Shepard.
Your argument is invalid.
So in other words, Shepard could wipe the flaw with Jack. The only person Shepard struggles to defeat in the entire trilogy is KL and that is because he pumps up his adrenaline by eating heaps of cereal before the fight.
#89
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:39
Volc19
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1- Samara: Matriarch, Justicar, Asari, need I say more?
2- Morinth: If Shepard's minor interference is all it took to push the tide of battle between the two of them one way or the other, they much be pretty evenly matched
3- Jack: Strongest human biotic ever. This is non-debatable
4- Javik: Ancient Prothean biotic? An avatar for vengeance among his people? Important enough to the Protheans for him to be prioritized over all other possible survivors? He's probably quite the biotic.
5- Liara: She has the edge because she's an Asari, but she never received any actual military training as far as we know.
6- Miranda: Genetically engineered to be perfect. If any human other than Jack is close to the top of the list, it's Miranda.
7- Wrex: He's a krogan battlemaster with hundreds of years under his belt, he's probably quite the biotic. Not great, but good.
8- Kaidan: L2s have much higher potential than L3s, so he's probably up there.
9- Thane: Making him a biotic was likely an afterthought.
10- Jacob: He can only pull things.
2- Morinth: If Shepard's minor interference is all it took to push the tide of battle between the two of them one way or the other, they much be pretty evenly matched
3- Jack: Strongest human biotic ever. This is non-debatable
4- Javik: Ancient Prothean biotic? An avatar for vengeance among his people? Important enough to the Protheans for him to be prioritized over all other possible survivors? He's probably quite the biotic.
5- Liara: She has the edge because she's an Asari, but she never received any actual military training as far as we know.
6- Miranda: Genetically engineered to be perfect. If any human other than Jack is close to the top of the list, it's Miranda.
7- Wrex: He's a krogan battlemaster with hundreds of years under his belt, he's probably quite the biotic. Not great, but good.
8- Kaidan: L2s have much higher potential than L3s, so he's probably up there.
9- Thane: Making him a biotic was likely an afterthought.
10- Jacob: He can only pull things.
#90
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:40
NeonFlux117
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crimzontearz wrote...
I have seen what he can do with his arms man.....NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
jury won gold with broken bones.......NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
I once saw a Navy Seal do 73 pull ups. He must be the greatest athlete of all time, right?
#91
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:43
crimzontearz
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Juri used to do a set of 50 for each of his fingers (both hands)NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
I have seen what he can do with his arms man.....NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
jury won gold with broken bones.......NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikelyNeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?NeonFlux117 wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
but you are missing the point
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
I once saw a Navy Seal do 73 pull ups. He must be the greatest athlete of all time, right?
you know what I mean, the original question is too broad and flawed
#92
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:43
Sideria
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arial wrote...
Better then Kaidan? Yes, better then Samara/jack/Liara/Wrex/javik? no.
Well all my point was Shpepard againt Kaidan yes.
In fact Shepard is extremely difficult to rate in term of lore because Bioware is obviously vague about him/her ^^
With the Liara Time Capsule dialogue we have :
-> Adept : Extremely talented biotic
-> Sentinel : Strong biotic and skilled tactitan
-> Vanguard : Powerful biotic, nearly unstoppable
Modifié par Sideria, 12 mars 2013 - 01:49 .
#93
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:45
NeonFlux117
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[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?[/quote]
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
[/quote]
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?[/quote]
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
[/quote]
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikely
but you are missing the point[/quote]
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
[/quote]
jury won gold with broken bones.......[/quote]
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
[/quote]
I have seen what he can do with his arms man.....[/quote]
I once saw a Navy Seal do 73 pull ups. He must be the greatest athlete of all time, right?
[/quote]
Juri used to do a set of 50 for each of his fingers (both hands)
you know what I mean, the original question is too broad and flawed[/quote]
yeah, I got ya. And look at this quote pyramid we have created. EPIC.
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
[quote]NeonFlux117 wrote...
[quote]crimzontearz wrote...
who is the better Athlete....Carl Lewis, Jury Chechi or Michael Phelps?[/quote]
Carl Lewis. By far.
By far........
[/quote]
why? he is faster but Jury TRUMPS him in upper body strength and Michael has better lung capacity....so why him?[/quote]
Track and field. Nuff said. Those guys are specimens. Ali and Jordan are better than all of them.
[/quote]
can Ali do the Cross? possibly not.....Can Jury run 100 m dash in under 10 seconds....unlikely
but you are missing the point[/quote]
No, I get it. It's all subjective and circumstantial. But I do know none of them could go 9 rounds with Frazier. or drop 40 in the finals with a 100 degree fever.
[/quote]
jury won gold with broken bones.......[/quote]
Don't put that little guy in the same breath as Jordan and Ali. That's silly.
[/quote]
I have seen what he can do with his arms man.....[/quote]
I once saw a Navy Seal do 73 pull ups. He must be the greatest athlete of all time, right?
[/quote]
Juri used to do a set of 50 for each of his fingers (both hands)
you know what I mean, the original question is too broad and flawed[/quote]
yeah, I got ya. And look at this quote pyramid we have created. EPIC.
#94
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:47
Rip The Reaper
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Volc19 wrote...
1- Samara: Matriarch, Justicar, Asari, need I say more?
2- Morinth: If Shepard's minor interference is all it took to push the tide of battle between the two of them one way or the other, they much be pretty evenly matched
3- Jack: Strongest human biotic ever. This is non-debatable
4- Javik: Ancient Prothean biotic? An avatar for vengeance among his people? Important enough to the Protheans for him to be prioritized over all other possible survivors? He's probably quite the biotic.
5- Liara: She has the edge because she's an Asari, but she never received any actual military training as far as we know.
6- Miranda: Genetically engineered to be perfect. If any human other than Jack is close to the top of the list, it's Miranda.
7- Wrex: He's a krogan battlemaster with hundreds of years under his belt, he's probably quite the biotic. Not great, but good.
8- Kaidan: L2s have much higher potential than L3s, so he's probably up there.
9- Thane: Making him a biotic was likely an afterthought.
10- Jacob: He can only pull things.
Not bad
#95
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:49
o Ventus
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Dear mods:
Can the massive pyramid quoters be banned now please?
Can the massive pyramid quoters be banned now please?
#96
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:50
NeonFlux117
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o Ventus wrote...
Dear mods:
Can the massive pyramid quoters be banned now please?
Easy, Captain Dogooder. Lighten up.
#97
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:50
Kais Endac
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arial wrote...
No, they would then change the dialogue: like how in ME1 Kaidan says "I was asigned to the Normandy as I am the strongest Biotic in the alliance", unless Shepard is a Biotic, in which Kaidan says "other then you, Im the most powerful Biotic we have".Rhayak wrote...
arial wrote...
once again, lore states Jack is the most Powerful human Biotic
Bah, i think that can only be valid because Shepard is not canonized as Adept.
jack was genetically engineered, Shepard was not.
saying Shepard is a more powerful Biotic then Jack is like saying a Kit-Kat bar is more filling then a plate of turkey.
sure, a Kit-kat bar tastes great, but it does not have the level of nutrition turkey has
As a neutral observer (well as neutral as things get on BSN) there is actually nothing to stop Shepard from being as powerful as Jack, the codex can be wrong, articles can be mired with misinformation (battle of the citadel/reaper entry). And the dossier from ME2 states that Jack is rumoured to be the most powerful human biotic. After ME1 Shepard was refited with more advanced Biotic implants during his/her resurrection by cerberus (who likely had the full results of previous biotic projects like Subject Zero).
Shepard actual prowess with biotics is not actually seen outside of gameplay in cutscenes he/she will always use a gun, and bioware have never come out and stated exactly how powerful Shepard is other than some general dialogue. Kaidan and Liara both mention biotic sheps (spikes as high as an L2 implant in ME1, and "an extremely talented biotic, one of the most powerful fighters in the alliance" from Mass Effect 3) but a concrete comparision is never made between Shepard and other biotics.
If asked about who was the most powerful Biotic I would say either Jack or Samara.
If it was who would win in a fight I would say that Samara while extremly experienced nearly having 1000 years under her belt, she is constricted by the code of the Justicar and might be slow to adapt.
Jack up until ME3 was generally too aggressive and while she had raw power on her side, could be defeated by a more experienced fighter.
Shepard shows talent, a certain amount of power and has enough experience, but without actually seeing what Shepard is capable of lore wise (instead of gameplay spamming powers) I can't really comment.
Shepard is really an the oddball of the lot and requires a certain amount of imagination on the players side as to how powerful he/she is, especially considering that during scenes with other biotics Shepard never (well until the Citadel DLC) use biotic powers.
It's a shame that we never actually see a biotic shepard act like a biotic in cutscenes, but understandable given the 6 class system and how time/money consuming it would be to create unique scenes for each class.
Modifié par Kais Endac, 12 mars 2013 - 01:52 .
#98
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:51
crimzontearz
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for that matter Liara is a very skilled, powerful biotic but she says she lacks the fine motion control to open a small lock with her biotics. Kaiden on the other hand was trained to use biotics for neatly every task so maybe he COULD do that....maybe....but he probably lacks liara's Biotic endurance
Kasumi is great at bypassing security but could she reprogram geth as skillfully as tali? would tali be as adept at sabotaging security systems as Kasumi?
Kasumi is great at bypassing security but could she reprogram geth as skillfully as tali? would tali be as adept at sabotaging security systems as Kasumi?
Modifié par crimzontearz, 12 mars 2013 - 01:52 .
#99
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:54
N7L4D
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Jack is fu cking the best, a fu cking hero
#100
Posté 12 mars 2013 - 01:55
Tom Lehrer
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Samara/Morinth - All that experience combined with their power is hard to beat.
Jack- All that raw power could and has brought down whole space stations.
Wrex- Krogan battlemasters are said to be on par with Asari Matriarchs.
Javik- His whole life was nothing but fighting so he has power and knows how to use it.
Miranda- Geneticly engineered to have great power and is well trained.
Kaidan- One of if not the best biotic in the Alliance.
Laria- Lack of experience and military training, if she were older she would easily be near the time.
Thane- As just a biotic he is lacking compared to the others on this list.
Jacob- A trained biotic but his power seems to be greatly lacking compared to the rest.
Jack- All that raw power could and has brought down whole space stations.
Wrex- Krogan battlemasters are said to be on par with Asari Matriarchs.
Javik- His whole life was nothing but fighting so he has power and knows how to use it.
Miranda- Geneticly engineered to have great power and is well trained.
Kaidan- One of if not the best biotic in the Alliance.
Laria- Lack of experience and military training, if she were older she would easily be near the time.
Thane- As just a biotic he is lacking compared to the others on this list.
Jacob- A trained biotic but his power seems to be greatly lacking compared to the rest.
