243 réponses à ce sujet

[Kais Endac]

andy69156915 wrote...

It also takes a certain amount of raw power to fire yourself like a mass relay... Probably more then it would for a singularity. It would definitely take less precision and biotic control to charge compared to something delicate like singularity conjuring.

Actually it would take power and precision to charge. When the Vanguard chrages he will go *through* solid objects untill he reaches his target without that control he could "stop" before his target and well....it would be very messy. Unless of course his amp has a VI on board to stop such things (I understand that the ascension kids have VI in thier implants)

The singualrity I would say takes just as much power to produce and a great deal of concentration. You both seem to be arguing for your favorite class not the most powerful which I would say is neither since (in my opinion) the only difference between an Adept/Vanguard Shepard is his combat preference and what powers/skills he's learned to fight with.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 12 mars 2013 - 10:13 .

[o Ventus]

klarabella wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

@Klara
So Javik (who is repeatedly seen using biotics outside normal gameplay) and Miranda (who is also seen using biotics outside normal gameplay) only come off as biotics because it was "cool", but Thane doesn't? Not to mention Wrex, who is a Battlemaster (who rival matriarchs in terms of biotics).

I believe I put them all in the same list.

For none of these characters being biotics is a defining trait. It's a bonus, very likely added for gameplay reasons and the justified with a quick handwave or two and the odd bit of lore.

Very much unlike Jack or Kaidan whose whole backstory hinges on them being biotics.

More than once it's stated for Miranda's backstory that she is a biotic, on top of visible, repeated use of biotics in cutscenes. She was engineered as a specimen of human perfection. Would be kind of a poor example without them.

[Jukaga]

Gerudan wrote...

Jukaga wrote...


Tell me about it.

I'm a biotic! Let me know when you want me to use the good stuff!

Err, I'm an L5 who can charge across rooms and unleash hell in your face. Nice pull there bro.

Jacob is a Biotic, so people can learn, what a Biotic is. 

[elitist]
If you don't know what a biotic is when you load up ME2 you have no business playing ME2. Real fans import!
[/elitist]

[o Ventus]

Kais Endac wrote...

The singualrity I would say takes just as much power to produce and a great deal of concentration. You both seem to be arguing for your favorite class not the most powerful which I would say is neither since (in my opinion) the only difference between an Adept/Vanguard Shepard is his combat preference and what powers/skills he's learned to fight with.

I play Sentinel, Soldier, and Engineer.

[Kais Endac]

o Ventus wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

The singualrity I would say takes just as much power to produce and a great deal of concentration. You both seem to be arguing for your favorite class not the most powerful which I would say is neither since (in my opinion) the only difference between an Adept/Vanguard Shepard is his combat preference and what powers/skills he's learned to fight with.

I play Sentinel, Soldier, and Engineer.

oops strike that then. 
My previous statement seems more harsh than I intended. My opinion on the biotic shepard's is that his power is uniform across the board. The only differences between them are the priority placed on his abilities and what he mixes them with.

A Vanguard's priority will be enhancing his combat abilities and focusing on the powers more suited towards that
An Adept will place more importance on a wider variety of skills focusing on both the effiecency and power of each ability
A Sentinel will augment his tech abilites with limited but still powerful biotics.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 12 mars 2013 - 10:20 .

[nos_astra]

o Ventus wrote...
More than once it's stated for Miranda's backstory that she is a biotic, on top of visible, repeated use of biotics in cutscenes. She was engineered as a specimen of human perfection. Would be kind of a poor example without them.

Considering how rare biotics are supposed to be, how she was created before biotics were even discovered and the potential tapped, I think she would work very well without it. Wouldn't it make for a nice story that with the rise of biotics Miranda would be considered a failure because she was born too early?

Her biotics don't define her character.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mars 2013 - 10:18 .

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

 The best biotic is Niftu Cal, the biotic god

[andy6915]

Adepts are the ultimate biotic. Adept Shepard is the better trained and more skilled biotic compared to vanguard Shepard. I've never once said anything to the contrary.

Of course vanguard Shep's have SOME level of of control and training (to not, as you said, splatter themselves), they just don't have the same amount as adept Shep.

Singularities are delicate in that it's very easy to collapse it and difficult form it properly, hence why it's such a rare and amazing power for any biotic to be capable of. Yes the power itself is pretty indelicate, but the creation of them is anything but. If it's malformed, all it will do is collapse after a second with a whimper. With charges, it's much simpler because you merely need to make your mass-free tunnel stable and make sure your exit point is defined.

Also, vanguards can use reave just fine. My vanguard Shepard's have no problem flinging those around. That is NOT an adept-only power. Hell, sentinels Miranda and Kaidan use it too.

[nos_astra]

Kais Endac wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

It also takes a certain amount of raw power to fire yourself like a mass relay... Probably more then it would for a singularity. It would definitely take less precision and biotic control to charge compared to something delicate like singularity conjuring.

Actually it would take power and precision to charge. When the Vanguard chrages he will go *through* solid objects untill he reaches his target without that control he could "stop" before his target and well....it would be very messy. Unless of course his amp has a VI on board to stop such things (I understand that the ascension kids have VI in thier implants)

The singualrity I would say takes just as much power to produce and a great deal of concentration. You both seem to be arguing for your favorite class not the most powerful which I would say is neither since (in my opinion) the only difference between an Adept/Vanguard Shepard is his combat preference and what powers/skills he's learned to fight with.

At these speeds no human can react fast enough. Keep in mind that biotics are activated and controlled through mneumonics, certain movements that activate neurons (or something).

Charge is pretty silly and could never work without VI assistance. (Assuming I suspend my disbelief and take for granted that it could work at all.)

The things a mass effect field should do is: increase mass, decrease mass. That's it. It pretty much reduces Charge, Reave and all the fancy stuff to lore-violating nonsense. 

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mars 2013 - 10:26 .

[Kais Endac]

klarabella wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

It also takes a certain amount of raw power to fire yourself like a mass relay... Probably more then it would for a singularity. It would definitely take less precision and biotic control to charge compared to something delicate like singularity conjuring.

Actually it would take power and precision to charge. When the Vanguard chrages he will go *through* solid objects untill he reaches his target without that control he could "stop" before his target and well....it would be very messy. Unless of course his amp has a VI on board to stop such things (I understand that the ascension kids have VI in thier implants)

The singualrity I would say takes just as much power to produce and a great deal of concentration. You both seem to be arguing for your favorite class not the most powerful which I would say is neither since (in my opinion) the only difference between an Adept/Vanguard Shepard is his combat preference and what powers/skills he's learned to fight with.

At these speeds no human can react fast enough. Keep in mind that biotics are activated and controlled through mneumonics, certain movements that activate neurons (or something).

Charge is pretty silly and could never work without VI assistance. (Assuming I suspend my disbelief and take for granted that it could work at all.)

Yea it is pretty silly, but it has the wow factor.

The biotic charging would not be able to make "course corrections" due to as you said the limitations of the human mind. But the intital concentration would be to determine his path and end point after that I would assume it is more a matter of keeping the field up till the end point. However how the human mind would be able to do this is questionable quite frankly I would expect anyone who tried to do it end up as a blood splatter on the wall.

The other powers are a bit out of place becoming more like magic than the inital powers from ME1

Modifié par Kais Endac, 12 mars 2013 - 10:30 .

[L2 Sentinel]

All that really matters is that most of the biotic squad members are exceptionally powerful. The Citadel DLC points out several times that the Normandy crew are legends.

Characters with legendary biotic prowess (listed alphabetically):
Jack, Javik, Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Morinth, Samara, Wrex

Characters who have biotics, but are legendary for their other skills:
Thane

Characters who are just happy to be here:
Jacob

[andy6915]

It works fine without VI assistance. A human can react in time, charge isn't that fast. If it was really as quick as you think, any enemy you will would turn both you and the enemy into a fine paste. The speed is as fast as it looks like, which is certainly slow enough to react to.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 mars 2013 - 10:40 .

[Kais Endac]

andy69156915 wrote...

It works fine without VI assistance. A human can react in time, charge isn't that fast. If it was really as quick as you think, any enemy you will would turn both you and the enemy into a fine paste. The speed is as fast as it looks like, which is certainly slow enough to react to.

During the charge there is some time dilation so it is faster than it looks, but asuming that the biotic has been well trained and the mechanics behind the ability become automatic to the biotic I suppose it would work.

Also the biotic protects himself so that when he hits the enemy he is not hurt. I think it would be similar to the barrier power where the biotic uses mass effect fields to protect against the damage of hitting someone as highspeed.

Modifié par Kais Endac, 12 mars 2013 - 10:37 .

[L2 Sentinel]

Gerudan wrote...

Jukaga wrote...


Tell me about it.

I'm a biotic! Let me know when you want me to use the good stuff!

Err, I'm an L5 who can charge across rooms and unleash hell in your face. Nice pull there bro.

Jacob is a Biotic, so people can learn, what a Biotic is.

I hated that scene. My Shepard is an adept, and I kept spamming pull, but they kept respawning. Jacob
insisted on him being the one to do it. The whole purpose of that scene
was to teach the player how to use squamate's powers, not teach them what a Biotic is.

Jacob being a biotic was redundant. The next squadmember you get is Miranda. She should have been the one to introduce biotics to new players.

Modifié par Rauhel, 12 mars 2013 - 10:38 .

[o Ventus]

klarabella wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
More than once it's stated for Miranda's backstory that she is a biotic, on top of visible, repeated use of biotics in cutscenes. She was engineered as a specimen of human perfection. Would be kind of a poor example without them.

Considering how rare biotics are supposed to be, how she was created before biotics were even discovered and the potential tapped, I think she would work very well without it. Wouldn't it make for a nice story that with the rise of biotics Miranda would be considered a failure because she was born too early?

Her biotics don't define her character.

They define Miranda just as much as Kaidan's biotics define him.

[nos_astra]

Kais Endac wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

It works fine without VI assistance. A human can react in time, charge isn't that fast. If it was really as quick as you think, any enemy you will would turn both you and the enemy into a fine paste. The speed is as fast as it looks like, which is certainly slow enough to react to.

During the charge there is some time dilation so it is faster than it looks, but asuming that the biotic has been well trained and the mechanics behind the ability become automatic to the biotic I suppose it would work.

Also the biotic protects himself so that when he hits the enemy he is not hurt.

Do you see the blood and brain splatters on that wall?
All biotics who attempted to charge and didn't learn quick enough. 

[andy6915]

How do charge and reave break lore? If charge breaks lore, so do mass relays. It's the exact same process, and a biotic should be able to replicate it. And reave is just a specialized warp that causes the biotic to spring up a biotic barrier around themselves when it hits a target (which technically makes reave a 2 in 1 ability)... Reminds me of a post I made long ago.

http://social.biowar...000/124#9275458

"Why? It's just a specialized warp power. It's pretty much just like an evolved version of warp. Both significantly damage barriers and armor (ME3 warp does the armor/barrier weakening), and both put on a constant damage per second health drain. The only real differences are that warp weakens enemy protections and damage resistance, while reave does the opposite and strengthens your protections damage resistance. They're pretty much sibling powers. That (the health regen) was pretty much just to make you resistant to damage, something ME3 did in a better way by changing it from health increase to armor increase. That's why I don't feel wrong putting reave on my biotic characters, it's pretty much an evolved warp. Actually, with my vangaurd, I just pretended reave was my warp from ME1, just a bit stronger and added with a damage resist property, done."


(I just know this forum is going to screw the formatting of that copy>paste...)

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 mars 2013 - 10:42 .

[Kais Endac]

andy69156915 wrote...

How do charge and reave break lore? If charge breaks lore, so do mass relays. It's the exact same process, and a biotic should be able to replicate it. And reave is just a specialized warp that causes the biotic to spring up a biotic barrier around themselves when it hits a target (which technically makes reave a 2 in 1 ability)... Reminds me of a post I made long ago.

http://social.biowar...000/124#9275458

"Why? It's just a specialized warp power. It's pretty much just like an
evolved version of warp. Both significantly damage barriers and armor
(ME3 warp does the armor/barrier weakening), and both put on a constant
damage per second health drain. The only real differences are that warp weakens enemy protections and damage resistance, while reave does the opposite and strengthens
your protections damage resistance. They're pretty much sibling powers. That (the health regen)
was pretty much just to make you resistant to damage, something ME3 did
in a better way by changing it from health increase to armor increase.
That's why I don't feel wrong putting reave on my biotic characters,
it's pretty much an evolved warp. Actually, with my vangaurd, I just
pretended reave was my warp from ME1, just a bit stronger and added with a damage resist property, done."


(I just know this forum is going to screw the formatting of that copy>paste...)

The only problem I had with Reave (ME2 version) was that it restores health, it worked more like a vampiric power than a biotic one. 

[Element Zero]

jadonbond wrote...

 i am having a debate with friend and just curious to how you would rank them? how would you rank these people from best to worst? jack, miranda, kaiden, liarra, jacob, thane, sammaru, wrex, javik? also who is better in tech? mordin, tali, kasumi, edi, legion from best to worst 

I was chuckling about this during my last Adept run. I think Shepard exists somewhat outside the established lore of the universe, to some extent, if only to allow the player to craft Shepard's story. I play alongside these NPCs that are supposed to be the pinnacle of biotic power-- an Asari matriarch, Subject Zero, etc... It's clear, though, that a biotic Shepard outclasses them all. Shepard is the star, the hero. If your Shepard is a biotic, then Shepard is the galaxy's mightiest biotic.

[o Ventus]

I can attribute the health regen on Reave to being a concession of game mechanics. Without it, Reave in ME2 becomes just a rather uninteresting DoT.

[Kais Endac]

o Ventus wrote...

I can attribute the health regen on Reave to being a concession of game mechanics. Without it, Reave in ME2 becomes just a rather uninteresting DoT.

I suppose one way to look at it, is that triggering the abiltiy creates a biological response within the body restoring damage to the body.

[nos_astra]

andy69156915 wrote...

How do charge and reave break lore? If charge breaks lore, so do mass relays. It's the exact same process, and a biotic should be able to replicate it.

Mass relays create a mass-free corridor between two mass relays. Ok, Shepard just charges a very short distance so he may be able to extend a feel just so?
But from somewhere there has to be some sort of push. Does running work? Is the vector right? Since mass effect fields only increase or decrease the mass of objects. What does Shepard use for that push and how does he calculate the power necessary to arrive at the exact spot? Certainly not with brain power. And if Shepard can do that forward, couldn't he do that upwards, too?

Or create such a corridor for other people, not just for himself?

Ok, now you've got me. Interesting concept. ^^

And reave is just a specialized warp that causes the biotic to spring up a biotic barrier around themselves when it hits a target (which technically makes reave a 2 in 1 ability)... Reminds me of a post I made long ago.

Ok, I could buy that.

I take the lore-violating nonsense back.

[andy6915]

Kais Endac wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I can
attribute the health regen on Reave to being a concession of game mechanics. Without it, Reave in ME2 becomes just a rather uninteresting DoT.

I suppose one way to look at it, is that triggering the abiltiy creates a biological response within the body restoring  damage to the body.

Again, my interpretation of reave is not like that. It merely applies a biotic barrier to the user when the power hits something. The health regen in ME2 was just a very crude way of showing how it made you more durable. ME3 fixed that by making it clearly a biotic barrier forming on you, though different looking from the typical barrier. Both ME2's reave and ME3's reave are the exact same power, but ME2 just had a very stupid way of making it give you extra protection. ME3 changed it so that it still gives you extra protection, BUT in a way that makes more sense with the lore, and shows that it's what the ME2 version was SUPPOSED to do. It was never meant to be a vampire power.

Just consider the ME3 reave as a retcon to how the power works to get it in-line with the lore. The ME2 version is doing the same thing as the ME3 version (giving a barrier), but just in a way that is a bit... Stupid. ME3 fixed that.

Modifié par andy69156915, 12 mars 2013 - 11:05 .

[nos_astra]

 

o Ventus wrote...

klarabella wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
More than once it's stated for Miranda's backstory that she is a biotic, on top of visible, repeated use of biotics in cutscenes. She was engineered as a specimen of human perfection. Would be kind of a poor example without them.

Considering how rare biotics are supposed to be, how she was created before biotics were even discovered and the potential tapped, I think she would work very well without it. Wouldn't it make for a nice story that with the rise of biotics Miranda would be considered a failure because she was born too early?

Her biotics don't define her character.

They define Miranda just as much as Kaidan's biotics define him.

Sure, that's why we have no information on how its possible she even has them since it doesn't fit with the timeline. So important. "I have them because without them I wouldn't be perfect!"

Very much like Kaidan whose mother was exposed to eezo after a transport crash in Singapore. Who got implanted with an L2 in 2167, was trained at Jump Zero in a rigorous training program and ended up accidentally killing his instructor in a moment of uncontrolled anger with his biotics. He disappeared and tried to come to terms with what happened before he eventually joined the Alliance. His powers rival that of an asari commando which is rare for a human. As one of the few stable L2s he's more of an outsider and likes to keep to himself. His powers come at a cost, he suffers from debilitating migranes, though he can be considered lucky in that regard. He used to hold back in battle, afraid to use his full potential. At some point he was specifically ask to head a new training program for biotic soldiers due to his exceptional skill. His biotics seem to have gotten stronger as of ME3.

Defining character trait my ass. 

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mars 2013 - 11:01 .

[Kais Endac]

andy69156915 wrote...

Kais Endac wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I can
attribute the health regen on Reave to being a concession of game
mechanics. Without it, Reave in ME2 becomes just a rather uninteresting
DoT.

I suppose one way to look at it, is that triggering
the abiltiy creates a biological response within the body restoring
damage to the body.

Again, my interpretation of reave is not like that. It merely applies a biotic barrier to the user when the power hits something. The health regen in ME2 was just a very crude way of showing how it made you more durable. ME3 fixed that by making it clearly a biotic barrier forming on you, though different looking from the typical barrier. They're the exact same power, but ME2 just had a very stupid way of making it give you extra protection. ME3 changed it so that it still gives you extra protection in a way that makes more sense with the lore, and shows that it's what the ME2 version was SUPPOSED to do. It was never meant to be a vampire power.

That makes much more sense, I havn't actually used Reave in ME3 yet outside of squadmates and have not read the ingame description of the power.