381 réponses à ce sujet

[Valo_Soren]

Noelemahc wrote...

Javik, Terra Firma and every biotic who is not an Asari would boldly disagree with you. I can easily see Javik building a doomsday cult around "putting things right" and annihilating every lifeform that was converted by Synthesis. Starting with murdelizing everyone on the Normandy, of course. And he will hardly be the ONLY one who is not thrilled at the prospect of becoming a robot (not what it is, but what they will SEE it as).
Everyone who has had implants of any kind may or may not survive Synthesis at all, and may or may not suffer drastic changes in personality and health due to the inevitable integration of the implanted circuitry into their biology on a deeper level. Unless of course the Synthesis is VERY flawlessly perfect, in which case the Ultimate Trump Card problem persists.

The Synthesis effect (like all the other Crucible effects) only extends to areas that have had active mass relays. Which means:
A) It may not cover all of the life in the Milky Way galaxy
it does not extend beyond the Milky Way galaxy

Since it was never made clear whether Reapers exist outside of the Milky Way galaxy or whether all of them came to hunt from wherever it is they sleep in the 50K year pauses, I can easily see a conflict between the Synthesized Reapers and the Vanilla Reapers. And the Leviathans will not be happy about all of this either.

If every being in the galaxy is now part organic and part synthetic they would have no reason to think the ways you are saying that they will think. When they are a new higher form of life, evolved and all the same. They are not becoming 'robots' they are a blending of the best of both worlds, both synthetics and organics finally understand each other, which means Javik would understand, Terra Firma would understand, all biotics asari or non asari would -understand- There wouldn't be a question of it. The Catalyst stated as such. Apparently you weren't listening when he said 'Organics will finally accept synthetics and synthetics will finally understand organics and there will be peace'.

Iron Savior Problem. There is no indication, nor any guarantee, that ReaperShepard will not come to the same exact conclusions as the Catalyst did, down the line, and start the cycles anew. Oh, and the Leviathans will have to be dealt with at some point.

The aforementioned "out of coverage" problem persists, except now it's a conflict between Controlled Reapers and Vanilla Reapers.

This is debunked by Shepard who says that becuase she remembers who she was before becoming the new AI controller of the Reapers and that is why she will be compelled to protect the galaxy. The Catalyst didn't have that, he wasn't originally organic. He is a computer created by the Leviathans. Shepard retains her memories of her life who she loved and who she fought for and because of that there is no reason she would start acting like the Catalyst who is nothing but a computer, an AI because she was human to start with. And again the EC slides indicated that she means to use the Reapers to keep the galaxy safe from harm.

Refuse

Sad sack moment: Twittercanon reveals that the next cycle uses the Crucible anyway, so appply whichever of the above colours you think is most likely to happen under Glyph's guidance.

This doesn't really matter as Shepard isn't concerned about what the next cycle will do. IF Shepard chooses this its clear he and she feels that he or she shouldn't force one of the other decisions on this cycle and its better that everyone fights to the death rather then having it forced upon them.

[Valo_Soren]

Destroy:

There is no clear indication or delineation of whether the Destroy beam differentiates between VIs and AIs. If it affects VIs, rebuilding anything becomes next to impossible, as then the Volus and the Quarians are pretty much guaranteed dead (their suits all depend on VIs). Same goes for Salarians and Quarians due to heavy use of cyber-augmentations, both of which are very much canon. Which leaves the galaxy as a mess with techless humans, never-that-good-at-science Turians and Krogans, now-useless Asari and equally techless Salarians. Galactic rebuilding will take a VERY LONG WHILE.

Oh, and the Leviathans made it clear they will conquer the crap out of us if the Reapers are ever destroyed, since their indoctrination is better than that of the Reapers and they, unlike the Reapers, have an understanding of "adapting plans".

The Catalyst says that their technology will be affected but they should have little trouble rebuilding. But it says that it will affect all AIs but says nothing about VIs so I think its safe to say that it only targeted what was construed as artificial intelligence not virtual intellignce. Otherwise I'm pretty sure it would have stated that fact and again the EC slides talk about how they rebuilt everything because its not like they don't have the resources to do so. After all they have a bunch of deadd reaper corpses that they can scrounge for materials throughout the galaxy.

The Leviathans don't have the numbers to 'conquer the crap out of us' and nowhere in the Leviathan DLC does it say they will try to do so again. It is more likely they will retreat back to that water world and desire to be left alone.

[Applepie_Svk]

Valo_Soren wrote...


Obviously you didn't watch the Extended cut explanations of the aftermath of each decision that totally debunk all of your statements here.

Wrong, EC was supposed to be further clarification and not retcon...

[Valo_Soren]

And seriously the Catalyst again has been harvesting organic civilizations for millions of years and having all the data on millions of years of civilization I'm pretty sure since it controls thousands of sentient machines called 'Reapers', yes sarcasm that it can tell the difference between an AI and a VI.

And why would there still be Reapers waiting outside the galaxy? I'm pretty sure that during the harvest they all wake up to take part in it by the Catalysts design. I highly doubt they would leave some out there hibernating when it will take the lot of them at least a few centuries to get the job done and even then its obvious they miss things such as the Protheans on Ilos, Javik on Eden Prime and their creators the Leviathans on that water world.

[Valo_Soren]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...


Obviously you didn't watch the Extended cut explanations of the aftermath of each decision that totally debunk all of your statements here.

Wrong, EC was supposed to be further clarification and not retcon...

The EC does provide further clarification that debunks all of these theories so, I'm not wrong. It Retcons a few things from the original ending obviously but it is the official ending now. The problem is people are stuck on the ending before the EC still and thats not the ending anymore. Its time to get over that.

[Applepie_Svk]

Valo_Soren wrote...

And why would there still be Reapers waiting outside the galaxy? I'm pretty sure that during the harvest they all wake up to take part in it by the Catalysts design. I highly doubt they would leave some out there hibernating when it will take the lot of them at least a few centuries to get the job done and even then its obvious they miss things such as the Protheans on Ilos, Javik on Eden Prime and their creators the Leviathans on that water world.

That´s not much the point, the point is that Catalyst´s agenda is impossibile to achieve - ergo it´s flawed.

Valo_Soren wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...


Obviously you didn't watch the Extended cut explanations of the aftermath of each decision that totally debunk all of your statements here. 

Wrong, EC was supposed to be further clarification and not retcon...

The EC does provide further clarification that debunks all of these theories so, I'm not wrong. It Retcons a few things from the original ending obviously but it is the official ending now. The problem is people are stuck on the ending before the EC still and thats not the ending anymore. Its time to get over that. 

EC managed to retcon such a big things like destruction of Relays, destruction of all the technology, change the Normandy scene and as a bonus managed to raise few another questions. For me EC did nothing more then sprinkles that tried to make endings more bearable, while it made a sense back then that by synthesis and control you would be able to rebuilt relays - it doesn´t make sense for destroy ending and to be honest - to debunk theories you would need change breath scene.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 13 mars 2013 - 06:33 .

[Valo_Soren]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...

And why would there still be Reapers waiting outside the galaxy? I'm pretty sure that during the harvest they all wake up to take part in it by the Catalysts design. I highly doubt they would leave some out there hibernating when it will take the lot of them at least a few centuries to get the job done and even then its obvious they miss things such as the Protheans on Ilos, Javik on Eden Prime and their creators the Leviathans on that water world.

That´s not much the point, the point is that Catalyst´s agenda is impossibile to achieve - ergo it´s flawed.

Valo_Soren wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...


Obviously you didn't watch the Extended cut explanations of the aftermath of each decision that totally debunk all of your statements here. 

Wrong, EC was supposed to be further clarification and not retcon...

The EC does provide further clarification that debunks all of these theories so, I'm not wrong. It Retcons a few things from the original ending obviously but it is the official ending now. The problem is people are stuck on the ending before the EC still and thats not the ending anymore. Its time to get over that. 

EC managed to retcon such a big things like destruction of Relays, destruction of all the technology, change the Normandy scene and as a bonus managed to raise few another questions. To be honest -to debunk theories you would need change breath scene.

What's wrong with having a few remaining questions though? They can't answer 100 percent everything, thats probably going to be discovered in the next Mass Effect game. Who knows maybe the Leviathans will be an issue that has to be dealt with in the future or not. And whats wrong with the breathe scene? Absolutely nothing, I don't see why Shepard surviving the destroy ending would need to be changed.

And yes thats why the EC -IS- the ending now as it explains not everyone isn't screwed no matter what the choice, yeah the Destroy ending might put the galaxy in a bit of a bind but its made clear in the EC slides that they do in fact rebuild.

[Applepie_Svk]

Valo_Soren wrote...


And yes thats why the EC -IS- the ending now as it explains not everyone isn't screwed no matter what the choice, yeah the Destroy ending might put the galaxy in a bit of a bind but its made clear in the EC slides that they do in fact rebuild.

Nope, with use of logic Shepard couldn´t survived... unless it´s Bad Writing Theory, but well BWT has proved to be right already...

[Valo_Soren]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

That´s not much the point, the point is that Catalyst´s agenda is impossibile to achieve - ergo it´s flawed.

No one claimed Catalyst AI's logic was infallible. However it apparently preserved organic life for millions of years by harvesting advanced civilizations and creating new reapers thereby blending organics and synthetics into  what it percieved as a higher form of being and in its own computer mind 'saving them from themselves'.

"We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness".  Sovereign said it in the first game for crying out loud.

[Valo_Soren]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...


And yes thats why the EC -IS- the ending now as it explains not everyone isn't screwed no matter what the choice, yeah the Destroy ending might put the galaxy in a bit of a bind but its made clear in the EC slides that they do in fact rebuild.

Nope, with use of logic Shepard couldn´t survived... unless it´s Bad Writing Theory, but well BWT has proved to be right already...

The Catalyst merely said that Shepard was part synthetic it didn't say for sure that the destroy option would outright kill him but his cybernetic pieces likely no longer function.

[Valo_Soren]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Nope, with use of logic Shepard couldn´t survived... unless it´s Bad Writing Theory, but well BWT has proved to be right already...

Also you only get the breath scene if you have enough EMS anyway, so its still possible for Shepard to die from the destroy ending its not a surefire thing that he'll survive at the end every time it is chosen.

[Reever]

Maverick827 wrote...

That's what everyone was so upset over?  Because it was "sad"?  Really?

When the game came out, I saw the negative comments on Gamespot, Metacritic, the BSN, and the Off Topic forums of literally every other game forum that I frequent.  I was convinced the ending was a deus ex machina.  Some galactic, omniscient space god teleports to Earth at the last second and saves the day.  Or maybe a hyper-advanced species from another galaxy swoops in at the last second.  Surely it had to be something that insulting to evoke such an outburst that still exists to this day.

But no.  It was sad.  It wasn't a perfect, fairy tale ending.  That all there was to it.  Do these people watch nothing but cartoons?  Have they never encountered a sad ending before?  Have these people never read Shakespeare?  Victor Hugo?  How about The Great Gatsby, for a more contemporary example?

I understand wanting a happy ending (heh), and I wasn't personally one to complain when a tough decision in Dragon Age: Origins had an "easy out" (and then everyone complained about that; I guess BioWare can't win?).  I would welcome a fifth option not unlike the MEHEM mod to officially be included.  But to complain this much about what is a legitimate literary ending to a narrative, not a plot hole, not a deus ex machina...I just don't understand.  

I didn't think I could have less respect for the people who bash BioWare and EA (on their own forums, no less), but somehow I do now.

I'm just glad I can stop worrying about the endings being bad and know now how amazing they are.

Nope, it just seems fans' logic and idea of what ME was and is is better than that of the developers....
To be honest, I was okay with Synthesis and with the choices at the end.

The things I wasn't okay with was the presentation (Starbrat coming out of the blue was really really ****ty) and some details that just didn't add up. The EC pretty much addressed the latter half, guess we're stuck with the Starbrat - or we can use the MEHEM thingy.

[BSpud]

Oh I just remembered... God, those endings sucked.

[Bob Garbage]

If you don't understand why the end of ME3 isn't liked by so many, I can't imagine we're enjoying the series for the same reasons. Even some of the devs expressed misgivings about ME3's conclusion. It's actually this ending that causes people to focus on all the other problems with the game. All of which would have been ignored if given a solid conclusion, and one we long time fans of the series deserved. Really, ME2 which is hailed as one of the best games ever by many has many issues throughout it, but that is all ignored because of how satisfying the ending of the game is. Truly, I think the best parts of ME3 are definitely the best parts of the trilogy, but the bad parts are also the series' worst. Blah blah blah, if the conclusion to ME3 was more on par with the majority of the series' quality it would be my favourite by quite a lot.

Modifié par Bob Garbage, 13 mars 2013 - 07:00 .

[geceka]

BlueDemonX wrote...

The things I wasn't okay with was the presentation (Starbrat coming out of the blue was really really ****ty)

I don't know, I've never really understood the complaint about the catalyst coming "out of the blue": After all, being this hidden, enigmatic entity that no organic has ever met before (apart from maybe the Leviathans who built it, as we learnt later) is what defines this character, and for me personally, the Prothean VI's comments on Thessia made it pretty clear that there is something else behind the Reapers.

Apart from this, I don't know what else would have been suitable in the catalyst's position. I mean, I can't imagine having a sensible conversation with Harbinger, that would pretty much be out-of-character for him, considering Harbinger has never said anything besides threats and insults.

Additionally, an elusive intelligence/AI/agent behind a powerful synthetic/robotic threat is really not *that* uncommon of a trope in sci-fi.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Valo_Soren wrote...

No one claimed Catalyst AI's logic was infallible. However it apparently preserved organic life for millions of years by harvesting advanced civilizations and creating new reapers thereby blending organics and synthetics into  what it percieved as a higher form of being and in its own computer mind 'saving them from themselves'.

Hold on right there, how is what the Catalyst preserving organic life? Making a leather coat is not preserving the cow or "organic life."  If I were to kill all the cows in the universe and make them into leather coats, I am not preserving life, I am destroying it.
   

[Zagardal]

Repost from a different discussion:

what most people have a problem with in regards to the ending is not that the options don't make much sense (which they don't, but because of my next point), it's that Shepard just goes through the motions, completely out of character, negating what we know about him/her and completely dismissing the main gameplay mechanic. No explanation of why these are the options, no explanation of why there's a new solution, no explanation of why we should choose even though the harvest is apparently obsolete (geth/quarian peace). EC tried to address this and failed, there's not nearly enough dialogue or investigation to make an informed decision, Shepard doesn't push for a satisfactory answer, we just get buzz words and deflections and we are supposed to take it as it comes. The most important conversation in the whole freaking trilogy and we get a couple of dialog trees and a bunch of auto-dialog, and the fact they didn't even work the new peace into the EC (even though it should have been in the original to begin with) makes the ending even more irrational.

I don't mind a gainax-styled ending, but for the love of god give me a good explanation of why it has to be like that... and I'm not talking about the options themselves (control, destroy and the new solution are at least somewhat logical solutions in that context, there's not much else to do besides that and fighting), that i can get passed, but there's no excuse to why Shepard doesn't debate the reasons of such solutions. If I say that the geth and quarian are proof that peace can be possible, the starbrat could have given me examples of past species that achieved peace but eventually ended up in each others throats all over again, saying it's just a matter of time and giving us proof to back it up. But no, he says "the peace won't last" and Shepard just goes "Ok, I suppose I won't even bring it up". And if there was no other  won't even bring it up". And if there was no evidence of peace between both factions in previous cycles, the starbrat's logic makes even less sense: he just reached it's conclusion after witnessing only ne example, the one from the first cycle, and extrapolated that to "always" (ever heard of the scientific method?), it didn't even wait to see if they could work it out, it just intevened by killing both sides of the argument and storing one of them in a giant flash drive. Having all the knowledge and power in the galaxy, didn't it occur to him to just intervene in another way? like giving warning of what would happen to one of the cycles and then watch if they were intelligent enough to heed that warning in time. Or maybe intervene as a giant space police like in the control ending?. He could have experimented with a number of different options, but no, for him only one example is enough to define your entire logic for millions of years to come. I would like to think that the reapers actually tried different tactics over the years, but there's no indication that they did and Shepard, against all odds, doesn't even try to ask the starbrat about it.

Again, I don't mind a depressing as f*ck ending where every option is a sacrifice in itself, but only if it's well written, especially when it comes to the ME universe, where dialog is the most important gameplay mechanic.

Modifié par Zagardal, 13 mars 2013 - 07:11 .

[geceka]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Making a leather coat is not preserving the cow or "organic life."  If I were to kill all the cows in the universe and make them into leather coats, I am not preserving life, I am destroying it.

What kind of analogy is that? Unless you know what actually makes up a Reaper (which has NOT been addressed in the narrative at all), you can't make any assumption about whether the Reaper form preserves anything/everything or not.

[Noelemahc]

Valo_Soren wrote...
If every being in the galaxy is now part organic and part synthetic they would have no reason to think the ways you are saying that they will think. When they are a new higher form of life, evolved and all the same. They are not becoming 'robots' they are a blending of the best of both worlds, both synthetics and organics finally understand each other, which means Javik would understand, Terra Firma would understand, all biotics asari or non asari would -understand- There wouldn't be a question of it. The Catalyst stated as such. Apparently you weren't listening when he said 'Organics will finally accept synthetics and synthetics will finally understand organics and there will be peace'.

So you're not only agreeing there WILL be brainwashing, you're condoning it? I think we're done here. Your words are as empty as your future.

This is debunked by Shepard who says that becuase she remembers who she was before becoming the new AI controller of the Reapers and that is why she will be compelled to protect the galaxy. The Catalyst didn't have that, he wasn't originally organic. He is a computer created by the Leviathans. Shepard retains her memories of her life who she loved and who she fought for and because of that there is no reason she would start acting like the Catalyst who is nothing but a computer, an AI because she was human to start with. And again the EC slides indicated that she means to use the Reapers to keep the galaxy safe from harm.

This does nothing to disprove my position. Shepard says all that RIGHT AFTER THE UPLOAD, and there is no indication this opinion will persist in the future. If you need reference on the Iron Savior problem, take it straight from the source.

Valo_Soren wrote...

And why would there still be Reapers waiting outside the galaxy? I'm pretty sure that during the harvest they all wake up to take part in it by the Catalysts design. I highly doubt they would leave some out there hibernating when it will take the lot of them at least a few centuries to get the job done and even then its obvious they miss things such as the Protheans on Ilos, Javik on Eden Prime and their creators the Leviathans on that water world.

Prudency. Just in case those metal-eating arachnids from the Large Magellanic Cloud swing by on another one of their drunk binges and decide to torch Reaper Central for skits and giggles.
BECAUSE ONLY TOTAL IDIOTS LEAVE THEIR HOME BASE UNPROTECTED.
If you cling so dearly to the concept of infallible Reaper design, then by that very definition they should draw straws to decide who sits this one out, making sure nobody captures the flag.

Bob Garbage wrote...

If you don't understand why the end of ME3 isn't liked by so many, I can't imagine we're enjoying the series for the same reasons. Even some of the devs expressed misgivings about ME3's conclusion. It's actually this ending that causes people to focus on all the other problems with the game. All of which would have been ignored if given a solid conclusion, and one we long time fans of the series deserved. Really, ME2 which is hailed as one of the best games ever by many has many issues throughout it, but that is all ignored because of how satisfying the ending of the game is. Truly, I think the best parts of ME3 are definitely the best parts of the trilogy, but the bad parts are also the series' worst. Blah blah blah, if the conclusion to ME3 was more on par with the majority of the series' quality it would be my favourite by quite a lot.

What he said.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 13 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[JPN17]

Maverick827 wrote...

That's what everyone was so upset over?  Because it was "sad"?  Really?

Not even close.

[Valo_Soren]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Valo_Soren wrote...

No one claimed Catalyst AI's logic was infallible. However it apparently preserved organic life for millions of years by harvesting advanced civilizations and creating new reapers thereby blending organics and synthetics into  what it percieved as a higher form of being and in its own computer mind 'saving them from themselves'.

Hold on right there, how is what the Catalyst preserving organic life? Making a leather coat is not preserving the cow or "organic life."  If I were to kill all the cows in the universe and make them into leather coats, I am not preserving life, I am destroying it.
   

"No one claimed the Catalysts AI's logic was infallible." I answered our question with the first sentence of my paragraph. And it 'preserved' and remember to use the word loosely and understand I am speaking from ITS point of view, not my own: It preserved organic life by harvesting it every 50,000 years but leaving the species who weren't advanced so they could do so in the next cycle. It believes (mistakingly or not) that if it doesn't go ahead and harvest advanced civilizations they will eventuallyd destroy themselves with their AI and the AIs would destroy all organic life in the universe and life would just end entirely in the Milky way galaxy and all that is left is Artificial intellignece os by 'making a leather coat' as you say it believes it is preserving organic life and keeping it from being destroyed by 'ascending' it to a new form of existence. This is its point of view this is why it thinks what it is doing was the best solution at the time. Just trying to speak from its own point of view.

[Noelemahc]

Maverick827 wrote...

That's what everyone was so upset over?  Because it was "sad"?  Really?

No, because it was an ending to some other, unrelated game. One that didn't concern itself with being internally consistent, well-thought-out and promoting the ideas of unity and strength through diversity. One that believes that pretentious pseudointellectual crap is better than an honest-to-goodness boss fight, that submission IS preferrable to extinction. One where Saren was not a villain.

[Valo_Soren]

[quote]Noelemahc wrote...

ics will finally accept synthetics and synthetics will finally understand organics and there will be peace'. [/quote]

So you're not only agreeing there WILL be brainwashing, you're condoning it? I think we're done here. Your words are as empty as your future. [/quote]

No I never claimed they were brainwashed so how about you don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head I didn't state, Ithankyou. I am saying that it will be 'understood' and 'accepted'. By the Catalyst's explanation people will know that they are differnet and they will 'understand' not that they are forced too that it will just 'happen' naturally as all synthetics and organics become this new being.
[quote]
[/quote]
[quote]This does nothing to disprove my position. Shepard says all that RIGHT AFTER THE UPLOAD, and there is no indication this opinion will persist in the future. If you need reference on the Iron Savior problem, take it straight from the source.[/quote]

It can be surmised easily that that position will persist in the future, you're just grasping for straws now because you don't want to accept that it can be a good thing. And that song sucked by the way.

[quote]
Prudency. Just in case those metal-eating arachnids from the Large Magellanic Cloud swing by on another one of their drunk binges and decide to torch Reaper Central for skits and giggles.
BECAUSE ONLY TOTAL IDIOTS LEAVE THEIR HOME BASE UNPROTECTED.
If you cling so dearly to the concept of infallible Reaper design, then by that very definition they should draw straws to decide who sits this one out, making sure nobody captures the flag.[/quote]

I am not clinging to that concept at all. I have stated several times no one said the Catalysts logic was infallible but the mere fact that the Reapers do not even believe anyone can beat them (because again no one can, conventionally) tells me there'd be no reason for them to not bring all Reapers into the galaxy for the harvest. There is also nothing saying that the Synthesis ending won't affect all Reapers either, the Catalyst likely would have mentioned that. Again your grasping for straws.

Basically arguing with you is pointless. You're one of the 'I know better then Bioware' fans well, if you do then write up some movie and video game scripts and when you get published or a movie is made from one of your scripts that makes millions of dollars maybe then I could take you more seriously.

[Noelemahc]

Valo_Soren wrote...

No I never claimed they were brainwashed so how about you don't put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head I didn't state, Ithankyou. I am saying that it will be 'understood' and 'accepted'. By the Catalyst's explanation people will know that they are differnet and they will 'understand' not that they are forced too that it will just 'happen' naturally as all synthetics and organics become this new being.

Yes, because magically being granted the ability to be accepting of not being who you used to be even though nobody asked you whether you want to change the very core of who you are isn't brainwashing. Totally different. Right. Sure.

Basically arguing with you is pointless. You're one of the 'I know better then Bioware' fans well, if you do then write up some movie and video game scripts and when you get published or a movie is made from one of your scripts that makes millions of dollars maybe then I could take you more seriously.

I'm sorry, I earn my money through other venues. You're welcome to count the "you should work for Bioware!" comments in my fanwank thread in the meantime.
You, however, have automatically lost this argument. The ability to appreciate and judge works of art is in no way related to being in the industry.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 13 mars 2013 - 09:24 .