85 réponses à ce sujet

[january42]

 Just to check:  AA- 135% cooldown with a harrier. Ok, but not ideal by any means. 180% with a Lancer (both at X). You get pretty similar reusults with most other caster classes (other Volus, who suck).

The thing is, the Harrier is already not a great gun on power spammers.  Without a damage boost, the ammo problems really come back to bite you as you need to much ammo to take out guys. I actually don't usually take it on casters for this reason, but it's at least an option. Barely.

Also, the ammo thing means it's not a great choice for weapon classes either as you have to hug ammo boxes due to firing all the time.  If you made it weight as much as a Saber it would basicly be pointless for casters and would need a considerable spare ammo buff to make sense for weapon classes.  The Harrier is actually a nicely balanced gun as is, unlike most of the AR's, which are junk. 

In short, while the cool down difference isn't that much, the Lancer works better on casters I find because the harriers ammo problems(both space and the smalll clip) end up mattering more on casters.   A caster using the harrier will find themselves running out of ammo alot, while the Lancer allows one to keep moving around the field.

Also, observe this.

Total damage per clip is much better with the lancer than the harrier.
Total damage per clip(if all bullets it)
Harrier x: 2590

With the lancer, it depends how much ammo you lose due to avoiding the cooldown. Let us say you let go when the ammo is at 20....which is pretty conservative IMHO).  Total damage per clip for the Lancer, assuming you let go at 20
Lancer X: 3137.6

IF your a bit better and let go at 10 ammo left.
Lancer X: 3985.6 

It gets betteer the closer you can cut it of course.

While you can fix that with an extended mag, you then give up the capabilty to have the nice Heavy Barrel+Piercing combination on either gun, which requires you to get your piercing from your ammo.  Which is another disadvantage.

Both guns are well balanced as is.   The Saber needs a buff to bring it's ROF up to where having a multi-shot clip matters.   The one only thing that keeps the Lacer from being a no brainer for casters is that they introduced power amps for pistols and SMG's.

Modifié par january42, 12 mars 2013 - 07:20 .

[U Bite My Pillow]

Something I forgot to mention:

A player with a Lancer sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "ok let's see if I can take these guys out faster than the last 2".

A player with a Harrier sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "crap where's the nearest ammo box"?

[DHKany]

People who argue that ammo is enough of a 'balancing factor' for the harrier are.... Lets just say I think they are 24/7 harrier users themselves.

Lancer is quite balanced I do have to say and it is sad to see it get outperformed by another rifle completely.


Also where is the love for the saber

[DHKany]

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Something I forgot to mention:

A player with a Lancer sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "ok let's see if I can take these guys out faster than the last 2".

A player with a Harrier sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "crap where's the nearest ammo box"?

ummmmm no. 

Lancer player should be thinking, "this is going to take forever"

Harrier players should be thinking, "just stay close to an ammo box and ill be fine"

seriously, the lancer is not a boss killer.

[U Bite My Pillow]

DHKany wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...
Something I forgot to mention:

A player with a Lancer sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "ok let's see if I can take these guys out faster than the last 2".

A player with a Harrier sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "crap where's the nearest ammo box"?

ummmmm no. 

Lancer player should be thinking, "this is going to take forever"

Harrier players should be thinking, "just stay close to an ammo box and ill be fine"

seriously, the lancer is not a boss killer.

Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Modifié par U Bite My Pillow, 12 mars 2013 - 07:32 .

[Stimpo]

DHKany wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Something I forgot to mention:

A player with a Lancer sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "ok let's see if I can take these guys out faster than the last 2".

A player with a Harrier sees 2 Atlas's. His/Her first thought is "crap where's the nearest ammo box"?

ummmmm no. 

Lancer player should be thinking, "this is going to take forever"

Harrier players should be thinking, "just stay close to an ammo box and ill be fine"

seriously, the lancer is not a boss killer.

in reality, the person with the lancer should be relying heavily on tech/biotic powers and combos to kill the atlases, and the person with the harrier should be holding down the trigger for the most part (exacerbates the ammo issue). The problem is the harrier is light enough for many casters to take, especially when lvld, and casters dont use quite as much ammo. It really is the duct tape of me3 weapons, stick it on anything and it'll make it work.

[Stimpo]

U Bite My Pillow wrote...


Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

edit: overestimated, if the spreadsheet is right the lancer x + 80% mag mod should be 102 rounds (57x1.8 rounding down)
 more fun w/ mathz - if you could "mag an atlas" with a lancer x, you'd effectively be doing 54800 dmg to armor and shields. That averages out to ~537 dmg per bullet. With a baseline 84.8 dmg per round, that's a +633% dmg modifier per bullet .  Apply that same modifier to the harrier's total ammo capacity, and the harrier could do 82k dmg w/ its ammo capacity, nearly killing BOTH atlases.

Modifié par Stimpo, 12 mars 2013 - 07:52 .

[DHKany]

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Sure. If you're using it on an infiltrator maybe (which in that case the harrier is better anyways, or you're playing bronze/ silver level).

and, it was just to point out that an ammo box isn't the ultimate weakness of the harrier. You won't start hyperventilating in fear when you see two atlases just cause you're wielding the harrier and don't have enough ammo to take out both in one go. 

Modifié par DHKany, 12 mars 2013 - 07:39 .

[U Bite My Pillow]

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...


Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

Nope... Lancer X with Extended Mag and Barrel with AP III's and AR amp III. Gold Atlas dead, 1 mag.

Edit: and an AR amp V, although its more reliable with a Debuff.

Modifié par U Bite My Pillow, 12 mars 2013 - 07:55 .

[U Bite My Pillow]

DHKany wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Sure. If you're using it on an infiltrator maybe (which in that case the harrier is better anyways, or you're playing bronze/ silver level).

and, it was just to point out that an ammo box isn't the ultimate weakness of the harrier. You won't start hyperventilating in fear when you see two atlases just cause you're wielding the harrier and don't have enough ammo to take out both in one go. 

Gold actually, and just about any kit with a decent Debuff and decent mods/gear can do it.

And yes the ammo IS the weakness to the Harrier. Look at some of the statements made, "I only use it on the Demolisher." Why? Because they don't want to run over to the ammo box every 20 seconds. 

[Stimpo]

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...


Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

Nope... Lancer X with Extended Mag and Barrel with AP III's and AR amp III. Gold Atlas dead, 1 mag.

Gold atlas - 23k armor and 21k shields, 44k total defense, 102 bullets = avg 431 dmg per bullet, ~500% dmg modifier per round. I wanna play that class.

Modifié par Stimpo, 12 mars 2013 - 07:58 .

[eighteighty]

my issue with the harrier weight is that it's significantly heavier than the Mattock, which it's modified from. from a story line perspective, they should be similar weight.

[ZuzuAmandi]

The moment I get the Lancer I'm abandoning the Harrier for it & never looking back. I hate haing to put the monster on hold to get more ammo. I just hate it that much. Even now I generally run the Hurricane over the Harrier but that thing destroys ammo just as quick.

[U Bite My Pillow]

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...
Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

Nope... Lancer X with Extended Mag and Barrel with AP III's and AR amp III. Gold Atlas dead, 1 mag.

Gold atlas - 23k armor and 21k shields, 44k total defense, 102 bullets = avg 431 dmg per bullet, ~500% dmg modifier per round. I wanna play that class.

Your missing a few factors. An AR amp V, critical hits, debuffs and Passives.

[Feneckus]

The Lancer is much better on casters.

It's lighter. Doesn't make much of a difference, but still.

You can keep dealing damage for an extremely long time. With a Harrier, you have to reload and then waste valuable seconds going to an ammo box. With the Lancer, you can fire and use powers for at least 20-25s without interruption.

The Lancer is extremely good at priming targets. I don't think it was mentioned but that's the best thing about this gun.

All this means you can be a lot more agressive.

You can't do this with a Harrier

The Harrier is much better on weapon classes though. Except on the Turian Soldier.

[Cricketer15]

if you sit next to ammo box then Harrier 4sure brah

[kira28]

Btw if you can spec your casters right you can carry a harrier with around the same recharge speed as a lancer.

But who wants to go for ammo boxes unless they have a lolreegar..

[koschwarz74]

i'm happy with my lancer I opposed to my harrier IX. no need to camp around boxes for (sometimes) 45 ammo...

Modifié par koschwarz74, 12 mars 2013 - 08:53 .

[ISHYGDDT]

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...


Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

Nope... Lancer X with Extended Mag and Barrel with AP III's and AR amp III. Gold Atlas dead, 1 mag.

Gold atlas - 23k armor and 21k shields, 44k total defense, 102 bullets = avg 431 dmg per bullet, ~500% dmg modifier per round. I wanna play that class.

Triple hit bug, so very possible.

Incidentally a Lancer I allows me to 1 clip a brute using a GI so already it crosses the threshold of usefulness for weapons classes despite being a 'caster' weapon.

Modifié par ISHYGDDT, 12 mars 2013 - 08:55 .

[SierraGHOSTN7]

SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

Harrier always better.

Modifié par RaenImrahl, 12 mars 2013 - 06:15 .

[Stimpo]

ISHYGDDT wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...

Stimpo wrote...

U Bite My Pillow wrote...


Your doin it wrong... I can 1 Mag an Atlas with my Lancer X.

And thanks for confirming my statement.

Platinum atlas has 27.4k armor and 27.4k shields. Lancer X w/ mag mod has something like 120 rounds. Each lancer x bullet has baseline ~85 damage. I call bullchit. (numbers taken from cyonan's spreadsheet).

Nope... Lancer X with Extended Mag and Barrel with AP III's and AR amp III. Gold Atlas dead, 1 mag.

Gold atlas - 23k armor and 21k shields, 44k total defense, 102 bullets = avg 431 dmg per bullet, ~500% dmg modifier per round. I wanna play that class.

Triple hit bug, so very possible.

Not according to the game mechanics as I know them, I dont think you can exploit the triple hit bug thru shields while using AP ammo, since AP ammo has zero bonus damage to shields, so you have 21k shield damage to bypass before triple hits can start happening, then you can start discussing scoring 102 triple hits ina row w/ the lancer.

edit: to be clear again, i really like the lancer. i don't have it at X yet, but I need video evidence to believe it can clip a gold atlas.

Modifié par Stimpo, 12 mars 2013 - 09:03 .

[peddroelm]

Stimpo wrote...

ISHYGDDT wrote...

Triple hit bug, so very possible.

Not according to the game mechanics as I know them, I dont think you can exploit the triple hit bug thru shields while using AP ammo, since AP ammo has zero bonus damage to shields, so you have 21k shield damage to bypass before triple hits can start happening, then you can start discussing scoring 102 triple hits ina row w/ the lancer.

edit: to be clear again, i really like the lancer. i don't have it at X yet, but I need video evidence to believe it can clip a gold atlas.

You know your mechanics wrong .. Yes ap ammo component will do 0 damage vs shields but actual weapon damage (separate component) will still hit twice/thrice while the shields are up ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 12 mars 2013 - 09:12 .

[Feneckus]

Stimpo wrote...

edit: to be clear again, i really like the lancer. i don't have it at X yet, but I need video evidence to believe it can clip a gold atlas.

A Turian Soldier can definitely do it.

[Stimpo]

peddroelmz wrote...



You know your mechanics wrong .. Yes ap ammo component will do 0 damage vs shields but actual weapon damage will still hit twice/thrice while the shields are up ...

 That's...really good to know... poor atlases, such a joke of a "boss" unit. That def makes the atlas "clipping" w/ a lancer more realistic

[Trogdorx]

While we're busy balancing weapons by weight can we turn the Typhoon and GSF into death hoses like they should be?

Modifié par Trogdorx, 12 mars 2013 - 09:35 .