140 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainCommander]

 "In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in stopping them, not in understanding them."- Vigil ME1

I'm beginning to think that this was the GREATEST mistake that was made in ME3. Trying to give reason to what and why the Reapers harvest the species. (I am aware that the Dark Energy ending did quiet well to give motive behind it and it sounded like it would fit in with the things Sovereign and Harvinger told us about not being able to comprehend their existence). But that is nether here nor there. The simply thing is the first Harvest wouldn't be able to happen. Leviathan says they were the first race to be harvested and made into Harbinger. But how? How does a computer programme suddenly kill the apex species and process them down to now make a Reaper? We know Leviathan can kill Reapers with a thought. So how does the Star Brat now manage to harvest the Leviathan and then the subsiquent races? I will give in that maybe the following races were at war with synthetics or indoctrinated/inthrawled but even at that we know a single Reaper can be taken out easily!

So this leads to my point. Reapers creation and main motive should of not been explained with the Dark Energy plot line was abandoned. They should of stayed as evil giant robots who taunt us and not a misunderstood AI's solution to Levithan's stupidity.

PS. I do know that the Dark Energy has been said to not to have been set in stone but given that its mentioned A LOT in ME2 and forms the point of a WHOLE mission seems pretty set to me.

Anyways peace out! Won't be buying Bioware or EA anymore! (LOL @ Simcity) 

[George Costanza]

The greatest mistake of Mass Effect 3 was The Crucible, for me, but explaining the Reapers back story certainly wasn't a strong point of the game either. Especially since we'd been told we could never comprehend their reasoning and then it turned out to be utterly banal.

[OdanUrr]

It was an incomplete reason with lots of gaps, that's the problem.

[HolyAvenger]

I sorta agree with you.

I haven't downloaded and played Leviathan yet to preserve what little mystery remains.

[Astartes Marine]

They should have remained like Freespace's Shivans...but instead turned out to be like Babylon 5's Shadows.

They were far better when there was all the mystery about them, gave them a Cthulu-ish vibe of the "immense, ancient, and unknowable".  They should have also kept the loud booming effect of Sovereign's speech, most certainly NOT Harbinger's.

[CaptainCommander]

George Costanza wrote...

The greatest mistake of Mass Effect 3 was The Crucible, for me, but explaining the Reapers back story certainly wasn't a strong point of the game either. Especially since we'd been told we could never comprehend their reasoning and then it turned out to be utterly banal.

The Crucible is part of the explanation of the Reapers because it leads up to the Star Child and his flawed logic. The Crucible fitted nicely into the original plot of the first leaked script! You should look around on the forums for the post about the original script!

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

The mistake wasn't in trying to explain them it was the ridiculous explanation we were given for them.

[mumba]

DinoSteve wrote...

The mistake wasn't in trying to explain them it was the ridiculous explanation we were given for them.

[Loaderini]

The Synthetics vs Organics chaos explanation would fit more to the trilogy if it was a theme explored again and again in the games. Even with sporadic mentions and missions, it was not a main theme in any of the three games. For example, when the Fringe series ended, the ending's theme was nicely and properly written to fit the entire series' theme.

Modifié par Loaderini, 12 mars 2013 - 03:25 .

[Cutlass Jack]

No what ruined Reapers was making them Skyscraper sized in a game that's a third person shooter. It made it clear right from the very beginning you wouldn't be able to defeat them using actual gameplay.

Which is why I didnt let the endings bother me too much. It never was going to end in a satisfying way.

[jasonxxsatanna]

I think the crucible should have turn out to be the blue prints for the building an Alliance Reaper that would have went on to be our secret weapon against the actual reapers.....I thought this might happen and would pull Kasumi's graybox plot as a tie in......but back then I guess I was just wishing for something grande......

[Ieldra]

I couldn't disagree more, OP. A plot that's basically nothing but the 1000000000th version of "Kill the evil monsters and go home" would not have appealed to me.

I wanted to understand the Reapers' nature and what it's all about as much as I wanted to stop the cycle.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 mars 2013 - 03:40 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I couldn't disagree more, OP. A plot that's basically nothing but the 1000000000th version of "Kill the evil monsters and go home" would not have appealed to me.

I wanted to understand the Reapers' nature and what it's all about as much as I wanted to stop the cycle.

"Kill the evil monsters" would be a function of the presentation of said monsters and not of their backstory.

"Kill the unknowable things that are trying to kill you" is perfectly acceptable. One can still wonder at their unknowable purpose without having it cheapened. And any explanation of it, no matter how un-lame would be cheapening them to some extent, given how advanced they're supposed to be.

The one we have cheapened them beyond any redemption.

[CronoDragoon]

I find the explanation for how they are made much more ridiculous than why they reap.

[hiraeth]

I agree with OP. Leave the mystery of the reapers alone--ME1 through ME3 is about Shepard and his crew, not about Leviathan and whether fires burning are at war or not, or the origins of the Crucible. I would have been perfectly satisfied if I had never learned anything about the reapers and just focused on the characters and using the characters as the primary way to defeat the reapers.

[Mcfly616]

hmmm.....No it didn't

[Astartes Marine]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
No what ruined Reapers was making them Skyscraper sized in a game that's a third person shooter. It made it clear right from the very beginning you wouldn't be able to defeat them using actual gameplay.

Didn't stop Descent Freespace from pitting you up against not only enemy fighters but several kilometer+ long capital ships as well, the Shivan Sathanas Juggernaut was about the size of New York state if I remember correctly. 
The God of War series has also had enormous boss creatures.
The Death Star/Star Destroyers in any Star Wars game.
The Colossii from Shadow of the Colossus.
And so on and so forth.

It's all about having the right tools to do the job and hitting the enemy in soft spots.

[o Ventus]

OdanUrr wrote...

It was an incomplete reason with lots of gaps, that's the problem.

This. They COULD have done it well, they just didn't.

I would prefer they kept the mystery intact though, but that's just my preference.

[Soultaker08]

i find the great idiots create an even greater idiot machine plausible enough when i look at earth politics for 10 secs.

[AlanC9]

CaptainCommander wrote...

But how? How does a computer programme suddenly kill the apex species and process them down to now make a Reaper? We know Leviathan can kill Reapers with a thought.

Presumaby with robots. Harbinger was the first "true Reaper," which means that there was some other kind of Reaper. They probably helped out with subsequent races too. And in any event there's no reason for a harvest to wait until the organics have developed space battleships. If the Reapers don't mind smaller harvests they can do the harvest before the organics even have space flight.

As for the main point, I would have hated the series ending on a copout; I'll take any answer over no answer. I don't even blame ME3 too much, since it's the earlier games that dug the series such a deep hole.

[fainmaca]

I think this is a missed opportunity for Bioware. One that could have hugely improved the game.

What they should have done was, rather than presenting a single explanation at the end through this hitherto unknown entity, have several possibilities put before the players throughout the entire game. Have indoctrinated mouthpieces offer us an explanation of what the Reapers are, but never confirm which was right or wrong. A benevolent force to guide us to the next stage in evolution, defenders against the synthetic 'threat', Galactic guardians who prevent some kind of dark energy related cataclysm, these and many more are all ideas that could have been shown to the readers, but delivered by faces we've discovered to be untrustworthy. Is the explanation the truth, or just a convenient lie that the Reapers used to twist their thrall's mind?

A good example of this is Saren. The Reapers used his inherent sense of duty, twisting him to serve them through a desire to save his civilisation. Thus, to him the Reapers became machines who would only preserve the useful, the worthy, so he did what he could to prove himself, and through him the Council species, an asset to be preserved. Of course in hindsight we all know this to be the lies of indoctrinattion, but had it and other theories been presented more ambiguously, then we the players would have found ourselves speculating as to what the truth was.

This would have kept the Reapers mysterious and unknowable for those who liked it so, but would have also achieved Walters' goal of speculations for everyone. we get to decide which theory is the best, or deny all of them and claim the Reapers beyond our understanding.

[Enhanced]

CaptainCommander wrote...

"In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in stopping them, not in understanding them."- Vigil ME1

Vigil doesn't make sense. You can't stop an enemy as powerful and overwhelming as the Reapers without understanding them.  There's no way. 

Modifié par Enhanced, 12 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[CrutchCricket]

Enhanced wrote...

CaptainCommander wrote...

"In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in stopping them, not in understanding them."- Vigil ME1

Vigil doesn't make sense. You can't stop an enemy as powerful and overwhelming as the Reapers without understanding them.  There's no way. 

If you can shoot a pipe you can stop the Reapers.

And people try and defend this nonsense...

[Trentest0]

Villains without motive are the worst kind in my opinion.

[Cutlass Jack]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
No what ruined Reapers was making them Skyscraper sized in a game that's a third person shooter. It made it clear right from the very beginning you wouldn't be able to defeat them using actual gameplay.

Didn't stop Descent Freespace from pitting you up against not only enemy fighters but several kilometer+ long capital ships as well, the Shivan Sathanas Juggernaut was about the size of New York state if I remember correctly. 
The God of War series has also had enormous boss creatures.
The Death Star/Star Destroyers in any Star Wars game.
The Colossii from Shadow of the Colossus.
And so on and so forth.

It's all about having the right tools to do the job and hitting the enemy in soft spots.

You're making my point for me. The gameplay in those games supported the size difference.