230 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

thats1evildude wrote...

"Please stop making me so special" is essentially a wish to do away with a narrative entirely.

In a way, yes.

I would argue that DA2 did that very thing by making Anders the story's protagonist.  Hawke was merely a bystander.  This is the thing I like most about DA2.

[Zkyire]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zkyire wrote...

Some random peasant with no powers or skills would be killed before the prologue even ended.

Then you start over.

Recall that early editions of D&D encouraged you not to bother naming your character until he reached level 5, because he would almost certainly die before that happened.

If your character is pre-determined to be great, where's the achievement in making him great?  I'd certainly rather feel like I accomplished something rather than be handed inevitable success.

Being great and being some random peasant are two ends of the spectrum, but there is a middle ground without being royalty or some god child.

Blacksmith's apprentice (not some star pupil, just decent) - you'll be in decent shape and might have basic training with some weapons - you're not an elite soldier but you're good enough to survive for a while.

[thats1evildude]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Recall that early editions of D&D encouraged you not to bother naming your character until he reached level 5, because he would almost certainly die before that happened.

I don't recall any mention of that in 1E, but I'll take your word for that.

In any case, D&D is now firmly in the "PC is special" camp, as most people prefer to keep a character that they're attached to and skip the lower levels anyway.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 mars 2013 - 07:31 .

[Khayness]

I've looked around on my bookshelf and the only game I think fits your criteria would be Alpha Protocol if you pick the Recruit background. You are just an inexperienced nobody to take the fall.

But being an inexperienced nobody what makes you special to be chosen, so there's that.

[Medhia Nox]

Sorry - but Hawke is the biggest loser I've ever had the displeasure to play.

And I don't ever want to play a story about such an effete character again.

[Milan92]

This is typically a subject that will never be able to get solved. If you don't want to play as a special character then just stop playing RPG's. Its simple as that.

[Wulfram]

Faerunner wrote...

I see what you mean about the other games and origins, but I have to disagree about the City Elf Origin.

You won't have seen this if you haven't played a male City Elf, but Valendrian makes it clear he had big hopes for the CE, which is why he moved the date of your marriage forward

[Heimdall]

Faerunner wrote.
I see what you mean about the other games and origins, but I have to disagree about the City Elf Origin. (By the way, why is it the only one not capitalized?) Yes, your mother was a skilled warrior/rogue, but she wasn't elite. She was skilled enough to get Duncan's attention, but so were many other low-born people he encountered on his journeys (like Davith). We can also infer those skills were hard-earned since elves are forbidden from owning weapons or fighting, and yours are too since you had to train and practice in secret ("We don't want to seem like trouble-makers, after all," says the father)
What's more, Adaia wasn't respected by the community and you're also regarded as a trouble-maker for just knowing how to fight. Walk around the alienage and most people will treat you as just another elf or a trouble-maker. "I'm surprised your father found someone willing to marry you," "Good riddence. You were always a trouble-maker," and others like that are rather common NPC lines. In fact, most people are too busy doing their own thing to pay you much mind besides congratulating or commenting on your wedding. It's not like everyone stops what they're doing to kiss your ass for being so amazing like the HN Origin
In fact, the reason why I love the humble origins from DA:O is because they're just that; humble. You basically start out as just another slum rat who had to learn to fight from hard work and bitter experience (rather than having the best tudors money can buy like for the Noble Origins or the best instructors of their ilk like the Mage or Dalish Origin), and you only start to gain respect/recognition after the day your skills are put to the test; i.e. the Origin Story.

Actually this sounds like the solution to the issue at hand.  The character is still in someway special but not held on a pedestal.  I actually felt that the Dalish origin wasn't too different.  Nobody walks around telling you you're the greatest hunter on the clan or anything.  In fact I got the impression that my character was considered about average, maybe a little better.

[Darth Death]

Emzamination wrote...

Bioware, please stop trying to turn my protagonist into a prodigy before their time and before I'm ready.

It's not really our protagonist, but BioWare's. You can only accept what has been offered. In a BioWare game, you can be entitled when defining BioWare's protagonist, but you're not entitled to decide the very nature (or overall backstory) of a protagonist.  

Modifié par Darth Death, 13 mars 2013 - 01:25 .

[Chiramu]

It's because the main character that we play in Bioware games always has to be super cool. We stand in hero wind and our hair doesn't get messed up.

In real life hero wind makes my hair all knotty and tangled, so I'm not as uber as a Bioware hero, I fail as a Bioware hero. I might make it as a lowly NPC.

[AlanC9]

Faerunner wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

•  Human noble - You're the favored child and one of the most skilled warrior/rogue people have ever seen.
• Dalish elf - Your parents were dalish royalty and you're the keepers favourite
• city elf - Your mother was an elite warrior/rogue and now you're regarded as such because she's pass her skills on to you.
• Mage - You're irvings star apprentice and one of the most gifted mages the tower has ever seen.

I see what you mean about the other games and origins, but I have to disagree about the City Elf Origin. (By the way, why is it the only one not capitalized?) Yes, your mother was a skilled warrior/rogue, but she wasn't elite. She was skilled enough to get Duncan's attention, but so were many other low-born people he encountered on his journeys (like Davith). We can also infer those skills were hard-earned since elves are forbidden from owning weapons or fighting, and yours are too since you had to train and practice in secret ("We don't want to seem like trouble-makers, after all," says the father).

(snip)

So no, I have to disagree on the City Elf Origin. (And way to exclude the Dwarf Origins.)

So the City Elf is only special in the sense that he or she has the training and innate ability to do what any PC will have to be able to do. Ditto for Dwarf Commoner.

That much has to be true in any game, doesn't it?  If Gordon Freeman doesn't turn out to be inexplicably awesome in combat, there's no Half-Life. (Breen has some funny lines about this)

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 mars 2013 - 08:24 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darth Death wrote...

In a BioWare game, you can be entitled when defining BioWare's protagonist, but you're not in entitled to decide the very nature (or overall backstory) of a protagonist.

We used to be.

[Lord Issa]

Want to add another point:

Just an interesting note: if we started off as an absolutely normal person in every way. Duncan would never have recruited us. Furthermore, we would have to be utterly incompetent in the game's opening (forget Darkspawn, we should struggle with a single savage Mabari)

Actually, having a single Darkspawn as a major threat in the beginning of the game could be kind of cool. Reminiscent of classic fantasy, where the hero initially struggles to defeat one mook but eventually becomes a being capable of unmaking entire armies.

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

We used to be.

Only in NWN.  All the other Bioware RPGs have had pretty clearly defined backstories.

[Warden661]

Realmzmaster wrote...

BoBear wrote...

I think they should make a game that starts out with the birth of the character and lets you play their entire childhood, allowing you to determine everything your character does before he/she becomes a part of the main story. Because that's practical

You mean something like in Fallout 3? You start off as an infant and get to pick your beginning attributes and skills.

I never actually played Fallout 3. Heard it was a good game but never got around to it.

I was being rather faceitious in my comment. It seemed to me that the OP was upset at what the developers felt was an appropriate back story to the main characters of their games. The OP wants almost a clean slate or, rather, an insignificant history. But seeing that significance is relative the only solution I see would be for a game to allow you to play through most of the character's early years, giving you that clean slate, and develop him/her yourself. However, this is highly inpractical and would only work in a perfect world. 

Modifié par BoBear, 12 mars 2013 - 09:09 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

We used to be.

Only in NWN.  All the other Bioware RPGs have had pretty clearly defined backstories.

Granted.  NWN did it best.

Though, I continue to insist that KotOR's backstory was only relevant to roleplaying if you wanted it to be.

[LolaLei]

I like the idea of our new protagonist to being dragged into the Inquisition (or whatever) under mistaken identity, so this complete nobody actually does end up accomplishing something great off the grounds of pretty much nothing.

[Tootles FTW]

Emzamination wrote...

It would make more sense for the pc to start off as average and work their way up to being all-powerful, rather than starting out as the most gifted being in the universe. It's more rewarding when one earns their skill and achievements rather then having them handed down on a golden platter.

What game did YOU play where you start out with all abilities unlocked?  Cuz' I had to level up in every single Dragon Age & Mass Effect game, learning new skills over time, thus I was not "all-powerful". 

Having a vague background that says your character is familiar with combat is standard fare, unless you want to play an extended tutorial level that has (as was stated before) your character smacking at straw dummies with wooden swords.  I don't recall any of the DA or ME backgrounds as affording your PC with any extraordinary skills, just the potential to become extraordinary.  You have to actually play the game to reach that level.

[Emzamination]

BoBear wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

BoBear wrote...

I think they should make a game that starts out with the birth of the character and lets you play their entire childhood, allowing you to determine everything your character does before he/she becomes a part of the main story. Because that's practical

You mean something like in Fallout 3? You start off as an infant and get to pick your beginning attributes and skills.

I never actually played Fallout 3. Heard it was a good game but never got around to it.

I was being rather faceitious in my comment. It seemed to me that the OP was upset at what the developers felt was an appropriate back story to the main characters of their games. The OP wants almost a clean slate or, rather, an insignificant history. But seeing that significane is relative the only solution I see would be for a game to allow you to play through most of the character's early years, giving you that clean slate, and develop him/her yourself. However, this is highly inpractical and would only work in a perfect world. 

Sorry, going to have to call out the bolded. On what basis are you drawing this from?  Having a Pre-existing accomplished history is neither significant or necessary for the pc, unless it absolutely pertains to the storyline.  Being regarded as a talented caster and irvings star pupil added nothing to the story other than needless head pats and praise. I could've just as easily started out with jowans child history or as average as any of the npc mages, and still do exceptionally well during the harrowing.

[Nefla]

I love starting a game with humble beginnings and if I get a higher status, I want to have earned it. Things like act 1 of DA2 where everyone comments on how you've made a name for yourself with the mercenaries or smuggler and you're so awesome when you never actually did a single day of that work, your character did it behind the scenes without you and you weren't even shown any of what was happening were hollow and didn't mean anything. I don't want a game where I start off as some elite and legendary general, especially if I'm a lvl 1 who doesn't know how to play the game yet or what's going on. It doesn't fit. I do like stories where you have a fall from greatness, something like: You're the king's only son and will inherit the most powerful kingdom, you've had everything handed to you your whole life, etc...but through your incompetence or unfitting personality, a lesser person is chosen to rule and you're cast down/exiled and have to earn your way and grow as a person.

[Emzamination]

Tootles FTW wrote...

What game did YOU play where you start out with all abilities unlocked? 
Cuz' I had to level up in every single Dragon Age & Mass Effect
game, learning new skills over time, thus I was not "all-powerful".

My statement wasn't referring to game mechanics. I was talking about the characters reputation for already being an extremely skillled & gifted combatant. and in that context, I refer you to the list of games in the OP.

Having a vague background that says your character is familiar with combat is standard fare, unless you want to play an extended tutorial level that has (as was stated before) your character smacking at straw dummies with wooden swords.  I don't recall any of the DA or ME backgrounds as affording your PC with any extraordinary skills, just the potential to become extraordinary.  You have to actually play the game to reach that level.

Again, the issue isn't about combat mechanics. Also notcied you're switching your argument between game mechanics and story.

[Emzamination]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Bioware, please stop trying to turn my protagonist into a prodigy before their time and before I'm ready. I appreciate the self-esteem boost guys, but I need to achieve my own fame and accomplish my own deeds in game. 

No

99% of young adult literature says hi!

Huh?