230 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

Lord Issa wrote...

1: Baldur's Gate was envisioned as a saga focused on a single character from the beginning. Starting off as another Bhaalspawn would have taken away from that. The game was intended to be played as a direct sequel to the first Baldur's Gate. I kind of understand what you're saying with regards to new players, but I would argue that old fans of the series deserved to be catered to more than new fans, when you consider that the game was marketed as being a continuation of the Bhaalspawn's adventure.

2: I disagree. Malak says you're more powerful now than you were as Darth Revan, suggesting that the player has turned someone reasonably dangerous (remember a Jedi strike team beat him) into the most powerful 
character alive (Lord Vitiate doesn't count, that was a ridiculous move by BW to drum up SWTOR hype)

^ Fair points. I can not disagree.

[Emzamination]

hazarkazra wrote...

edit: about the mage thing:

Also why does everyone keep assuming that duncan wouldn't recruit the player because they're not somewhat known? Duncan was looking for talented individuals to become wardens. If the mage undertook the harrowing and passed it in record time by the players own merit, then it follows that irving would've still recommended the player to duncan upon their visit.

Because Wardens are pretty picky when it comes to recruits, but double so for Mages. They employ very limited mage numbers, I even remember a conversation suggesting only one mage in every Circle can be a Warden at any time. (Seeing how 'protective' the Templars are of mages quite probable) So you pretty much want the best you can get.

It's also suggested that the stronger the Recruit, the more likely they are to survive the Joining.

Not enough time, but I shall return to argue this to a point. for now ta ta forumites

[The Elder King]

Emzamination wrote...



Also why does everyone keep assuming that duncan wouldn't recruit the player because they're not somewhat known? Duncan was looking for talented individuals to become wardens. If the mage undertook the harrowing and passed it in record time by the players own merit, then it follows that irving would've still recommended the player to duncan upon their visit.

We must dismiss the assumption that starting off as average means you don't have the potential to become great.

First off, not everyone said that Duncan wouldn't have recruited a not-known characters. The Brosca Warden wasn't well-know. He was a nobody (casteless dwarves are really nobody in dwarven culture). Duncan become interested in Brosca because he won a tournament, something you, the player, accomplish in-game. The city elf wasn't a well-know character either. Duncan knew her mother, buy you can't say that the city elf was someone important.
And about the mage Warden being Irving's favourite student, that doesn't make him more important than the other mages in the Circles. You're still treated in the same way by the templars. People in the tower didn't treat you differently because of your relatonship with Irving. They started to notice you because of your accomplishment in the Harrowing. I don't see how being Irving's favourite student makes the mage Warden "special". He didn't accomplish anything before the game.

[thats1evildude]

Emzamination wrote...

How so? The player didn't gain anything they didn't already possess beforehand.

But their potential was locked away, yes? I haven't played KotoR, so I'm a bit vague on the details, but it's my understanding that The Exile was originally a powerful Sith Lord and they weren't nearly as powerful as they used to be. You, the player, helped them remember who they are and unlocked that potential.

I still don't see why this is a problem.

Emzamination wrote...

Terribad example. Are you really going to compare batmans widely known career acomplishments to a character who was supposed to be a random blank slate?

I don't really understand why that matters. I'm still using my own brain power to solve the Riddler's puzzles and my own reflexes (to an extent) to beat up an army of thugs. Obviously, I rely on Batman's training and gadgets, but he still relies on my lead. I still pick what upgrades he will take, and so forth.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 mars 2013 - 10:23 .

[Lord Issa]

Perhaps a good compromise for DA3 would be to have different origins reflecting different backgrounds:

1: Armsman. A competent fighter, you are unremarkable for the most part and your poor military instructors mean that you lack the finesse of a morecapably trained fighter. However, you are reasonably experienced meaning you can often outlast your foes. +1 Endurance, -1 Dexterity

2: Noble: Trained from a young age to fight, you are strong and your natural skill is impressive. However, your classical education, while expertly delivered, was perhaps a little narrower than you would like and your lack of real life experience means that you aren't quite as hardy as you would like. +1 Strength and Dexterity, -1 Cunning and Endurance.

3: Merchant's Son: Born into a reasonably well-off family, you have been given a rudimentary education and a reasonable amount of training. You prefer battle to your father's trade. No bonuses or weaknesses.


Obviously mages would need separate ones-but let's face it, it's pretty hard to stop mages from being attention-seekers!

[The Elder King]

hazarkazra wrote...


edit: about the mage thing:

Also why does everyone keep assuming that duncan wouldn't recruit the player because they're not somewhat known? Duncan was looking for talented individuals to become wardens. If the mage undertook the harrowing and passed it in record time by the players own merit, then it follows that irving would've still recommended the player to duncan upon their visit.

Because Wardens are pretty picky when it comes to recruits, but double so for Mages. They employ very limited mage numbers, I even remember a conversation suggesting only one mage in every Circle can be a Warden at any time. (Seeing how 'protective' the Templars are of mages quite probable) So you pretty much want the best you can get.

It's also suggested that the stronger the Recruit, the more likely they are to survive the Joining.

The Wardens would be glad to have more mages in their ranks. It's the templars that feat having a lot of mages outside the Circle, expecially if completely free as the Wardens.
What Wardens search is talent. If Amell was hated by Irving, and Duncan happened to find that he completed the Harrowing in record time, he'd have still asked to recruit him. Being Irving's favorite student didn't mean anything to Duncan.

[Izana]

I agree with this, to a degree.

As much as I love Bioware games, I dislike their ways of making the main pc always the center of attention and gaining popularity bigger than god. After three Mass Effect game, I got annoyed how Commander Shepard is the center of everything and how everyone admires him to the point they might as well make a religion dedicated to him (Reason why I was happy that someone like James existed). But if it can't be avoided, I would like if the pc isn't the best around when the game starts (A reason why I like Hawke).

Of course, the pc must have something like an unnatrual ability, skill or talent that makes him stand out if he will be the lead. But in the end, I'm not fond of characters that enter the mary sue territory.

[DarkSpiral]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Uh... are you serious?

Each of the protagonists of the Elder Scrolls game is a hero, an incarnation of Shezzarine (Lorkhan) sent to protect Nirn.  Just because you don't know that you're special and few may recognize it doesn't mean it isn't true. =D

Uh.  The Shezzarine theory borders so close to fannon (it isn't quite fannon, as the material has actually been presented in the games) that it suprised me you even mentioned it.  Nothing in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim give any support to the theory.  They don't contradict it, either, but that's hardly the same thing as declaring it as fact.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 12 mars 2013 - 10:47 .

[BlueMagitek]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Uh.  The Shezzarine theory borders so close to fannon (it isn't quite fannon, as the material has actually been presented in the games) that it suprised me you even mentioned it.  Nothing in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim give any support to the theory.  They don't contradict it, either, but that's hardly the same thing as declaring it as fact.

True, the Morrowind protagonist I know is most likely not so.  I hadn't actually expected someone to call me out on this here!  For this I am glad. =D

The Morrowind Protagonist (who I won't refer to by title, as to not spoil games, unlike some people :/ ) has the direct backing of a Daedra who was still allowed to interfere in the world (Prince seems to lose much of its presence after one of the three ascends).

As for the Hero of Oblivion, is he not a Knight of the Nine?  Stabilize the Realm and turn the big bad of the game into jelly with a staff?  How does he not fit the definition when everything you do in Oblivion, from hunting down a Lovecraftian cult to, well, the main plot, actually, not fit the definition?

Skyrim, finally, you have a divine gift from another deity.  Though I haven't played through this game as much as the others, so you may be right here.  Though why the Maormer didn't wreck the High Elves like last time is beyond me. ~_^

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

In a BioWare game, you can be entitled when defining BioWare's protagonist, but you're not in entitled to decide the very nature (or overall backstory) of a protagonist.

We used to be.

Really? In BG1 you were raised by Gorion in Candlekeep. This is about as specific as backstory gets.

NWN OC and SoU had no particular background for the PC.

And then we have KotOR, which is .... a bit unusual in this aspect.

[AlanC9]

Emzamination wrote...
Bg2 is completely fair game. Even if you've never played or imported from bg1, you still start off with all the previous games history and acomplishments, when really the only actual piece of history necessary to the character was being a bhallspawn, which could've been any random person as there was more than one. It would've far more logical to start a new character off as a different spawn.

Kinda hard to work Imoen into that. I supposed Jaheira and Misnc could have had new dialogue or something.

[hazarkazra]

hhh89 wrote...

The Wardens would be glad to have more mages in their ranks. It's the templars that feat having a lot of mages outside the Circle, expecially if completely free as the Wardens.
What Wardens search is talent. If Amell was hated by Irving, and Duncan happened to find that he completed the Harrowing in record time, he'd have still asked to recruit him. Being Irving's favorite student didn't mean anything to Duncan.

I'm sure the Templars and The Chantry are the probably reason they recruit such a small number, which I believe I've said in my post aswell. Whatever the reason the point stands that the Wardens recruit very few mages and as such are more selective when it comes to them. So if they happen to recruit a mage, he or she better be worth it.

I doubt Duncan just happened to notice the PC mage, nor that that he would have recruited him without Irvings unofficial aproval. Irving told Duncan that his favored apprentice might be a good pick. When you first meet Duncan he specifically asks if this the one they have been talking about. This is why Duncan shows special interest in you which ultimately results in your conscription.

Personally, I even suspect that Irving was the one who took the initiative and go Duncan to check out the PC mage as a possible recruit. Seeing how devious Irving can be, I'm sure he saw the advantage of having such a powerful mage outside of Chantry control yet still part of the Circle.

Modifié par hazarkazra, 12 mars 2013 - 11:49 .

[TEWR]

I honestly don't really find the idea of "You're special!" to be that bad. I'd expect as much for nobility in terms of martial prowess and it doesn't bother me if the game tries to say as much.

Provided it doesn't go too far, that is.

EntropicAngel wrote...

Dragon Age one--you are not the favored child, in human noble origins. Your brother is going off to the war with your father. You're the "baby." There's nothing special there.

Actually, you are. It's speculated in-game by a few people that Fergus won't be the one to succeed Bryce, but rather the Human Noble.

DA ][ - please, link me to the codex entry that says Hawke is a gifted warrior/mage/rogue.

The codex entry on Hawke would certainly apply to the Mage part. And it's said in that same codex that Hawke was responsible for the welfare of the entire family. Granted, he/she was the eldest so that makes sense.

hhh89 wrote...

 Duncan knew her mother, buy you can't say that the city elf was someone important.

Duncan traveled to the Alienage specifically to recruit the City Elf Warden, which prompted Valendrian to move up the wedding.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mars 2013 - 11:53 .

[tfcreative]

I think the case can be made that at the beginning of ME, Shepard is good, but not that good. He's a fine soldier, but there are lots of fine soldiers in the alliance (hence N7). He's XO of the normandy, and Pressley can accomplish that.

As for the Spectre status, Anderson was actually the first human Spectre candidate, and was qualified but was shanked by Saren. Humans had been pushing many angles to get a Spectre, and Shepard turned out to be a convenient political compromise so that humanity could pursue Saren and the Reapers over the loss of Eden Prime without the council getting too involved.

Post Spectre status, Shepard gets famous, but it's as much about the novelty of a human Spectre as anything else. It's likely that there are many that would view it as a freak show, like how Kardashians can be famous for nothing.

It's only through the course of the games that Shep gets truly famous and respected. Try to recall that at the beginning of ME2, the normandy is doing dead-end patrols for pirates and geth that have nothing to do with the reapers. It's not like everything just opened up even after completing the entire first game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Really? In BG1 you were raised by Gorion in Candlekeep. This is about as specific as backstory gets.

I didn't say we could every time.

NWN OC and SoU had no particular background for the PC.

BioWare's high water mark, in this regard.

At some point I should compile the features I like from each BioWare game into a single list.

[sirus1988]

I agree with the OP on this. I would like to see more (Bioware) games with normal, non-special protagonists that then grow to be heroes at the end of the game. A good example would be Legend of Zelda: OoT or even the Castless Dwarf origin story in DAO.

However, I would have to disagree with DA2 protagonist, Hawke, beginning with any special skills/gifts/blessings. Hawke's family preaty much lost everything at the start of the game and even when they arrived in Kirkwall, s/he was forced into one year of servatude in order for the family to enter and live in the city. From there Hawke builds a fortune from nothing and then becomes the Hero of Kirkwall. It isn't exactly perfect, but it's a good template for future games to be made from if they want to start with a normal protagonist.

[BadExamp1e]

Janan Pacha wrote...

In DA3 you will start out as a crippled, nonsense babbling moron without a penny or lick of training to your name. The largest upgrade in combat ability you will get is a tough stick to use in place of your flailing limbs from prior in the game. You will eventually upgrade from a dirty loincloth to a muck soaked potato sack. As a mage your ultimate spell will be to control the lice infestation scouring your scalp and send them out to slightly annoy your enemies,.

Your title shall be S/He who Procreates with Nugs, with the family name Nuglover because the forum filter wouldn't allow for the more humorous alternative. All your companions will be better than you, and your enemies. Even the bum in the alley.

Also your toe and fingernails are yellowed, curled and chipped. Let's not even get into the issues with your teeth. And your breath? Forget about any love interest that isn't a Nug, your breath could peal paint.

You're a creative little mofo aren't you? I like it.

[AshenShug4r]

I'm with Enzamination 100% on this one, other than the elder scrolls
comparison, which was inaccurate. In all Bioware games you're
sickeningly special, it would be nice to have to work hard at it . I truly don't mind either way though, the formula has worked thus far.

[Siegdrifa]

Emzamination wrote...

krul2k wrote...

for a hero to be a hero there has to be a spark of something great in them, something that makes them stand out an something that stands them above your ordinary ppl

if there aint something "special" about your character then sorry but your just some other ordinary bum an not worthy of a game dedicated to you

The elder scrolls says hello.

Ah, in Morrowind and Oblivion, the hero is just the reincarnation of a god ... in Skyrim, we can't say that the hero is a random guy either.

[unbentbuzzkill]

not to be rude Emzam, But being a nobody and then saving the world over the course of months or years seems just as silly to me.

[LolaLei]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

not to be rude Emzam, But being a nobody and then saving the world over the course of months or years seems just as silly to me.

I think it depends. I mean, you can still be skilled without being of any importance.

For example, let's pretend one of the background options for the new protagonist is a street urchin that's spent his/her life on the streets. Due to circumstance he/she has developed survival skills from an early age in order to survive (just like any other street urchin would need to learn). By the time the events of DA3 roll around he/she would likely be a sufficent fighter/thief/whatever simply due to having no choice but to learn such skills. All of which the protagonist has accomplished because he/she is an underdog and has no choice but to do whatever it took to survive or die, rather than being "the chosen one" or special/favoured in some way.

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 mars 2013 - 01:27 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Janan Pacha wrote...

In DA3 you will start out as a crippled, nonsense babbling moron without a penny or lick of training to your name. The largest upgrade in combat ability you will get is a tough stick to use in place of your flailing limbs from prior in the game. You will eventually upgrade from a dirty loincloth to a muck soaked potato sack. As a mage your ultimate spell will be to control the lice infestation scouring your scalp and send them out to slightly annoy your enemies,.

Your title shall be S/He who Procreates with Nugs, with the family name Nuglover because the forum filter wouldn't allow for the more humorous alternative. All your companions will be better than you, and your enemies. Even the bum in the alley.

Also your toe and fingernails are yellowed, curled and chipped. Let's not even get into the issues with your teeth. And your breath? Forget about any love interest that isn't a Nug, your breath could peal paint.

[unbentbuzzkill]

^ but wouldn't that in a way make the pc somewhat special in his/her own way?

[Gill Kaiser]

Emzamination wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Incorrect. That wasn't pre-history. That power unlocks after killing the dragon.

It actually was pre-history, because it was still your innate, inborn power. That dragon didn't suddenly dub you "dragonborn" and give you your dragon soul when you killed it--you were born with that once-in-lifetimes gift.

Pre-history.

So you started out being able to shout and absorb dragon souls? Yeah, didn't think so.

Umm... yes, yes you did. You just couldn't because there were no dragons around to absorb, so your power was dormant. Being dragonborn is innate; you have to have been born with the soul of a dragon. You are literally a dragon in a mortal's body (if, indeed, the dovahkiin can even die of old age). You can't just kill a dragon and change your goddamn soul.

[LolaLei]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

^ but wouldn't that in a way make the pc somewhat special in his/her own way?

Was that question to me? I'm gonna presume that it is lol. 

Well, he/she wouldn't be anymore special that any other street urchin. It's just that the situation he/she is thrown into (becoming the Inquisitor or whatever) would require him to put those skills to good use and improve on them etc, so he/she kinda realises their potential through trial, error and on the job experience rather than being a special snowflake from the outset. If that makes sense?

Modifié par LolaLei, 13 mars 2013 - 02:59 .