230 réponses à ce sujet

[mrpoultry]

In other words, no more more mary sues.

Modifié par mrpoultry, 13 mars 2013 - 11:31 .

[Loremaster Nick]

Emzamination wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The elder scrolls says hello.

Like Skyrim, where the hero was just some nobody who happened to be born with the blood and soul of a dragon?

Incorrect. That wasn't pre-history. That power unlocks after killing the dragon.

Nope, you are the dragonborn all a long. And Lord Nerevar says hello, you know the great dunmer warrior who's re-incarnation you are in Morrowind, or are you too new to the franchise to know that?

[Volus Warlord]

Er WHAT?

[AllThatJazz]

 In Skyrim, you ARE exceptional. You don't know it, nobody else knows it, but regardless you are the only one who can get the job done because you have an exceptional destiny (same in Morrowind). In the first Fallout, you are exceptional - the cleverest/fastest/strongest/most resourceful person (depending on your build) in the vault and therefore the person who is most likely to get the job done. In F2, you are both exceptionally skilled and a descendant of the original vault dweller (I think). In F3, you are exceptional due to birth (you are the child of the people who tried to bring the Wasteland back to life); in F:NV you are exceptionally lucky - you survive a gunshot to the heart in the very first scene of the game.

In every game I've ever played where there is a hero, and the sort of heroic progression we see in RPGs, there is always something exceptional about the soon-to-be hero from the outset, whatever it is and whether or not they or anyone else knows it. You are better than, or at least different to, your peers. If this wasn't the case, and you were just some average guy/girl, it seems terribly unlikely that you'd ever get to be the hero, because instead you'd be random civilian no.22, whose cat gets rescued by someone stronger and braver than you on their way to becoming a hero. Then a bit later in the game, you get mown down by the bad guy on his way to being killed by the hero. The hero then adopts your cat.

I do agree that the 'special because of birth/destiny/chosen one' thing is overused, as is belonging to a 'Secret Order of Specialness' - and Bioware, along with most other devs, tend to do one or the other of these things (or in the case of Jade Empire, both). However the occasions where neither of these things happened, or much  - Neverwinter Nights OC, Shadows of Undrentide (though you could sort of join the Harpers in that) and DA2 - have regularly been criticised as Bioware's weakest and least compelling stories to date. And I have to admit there is something satisfying, (possibly on an ego level ) to many players, including myself, when you get that big moment part way through the game where you, eg, become a Spectre/Warden, or your Destiny as a Special Snowflake ™ is revealed.  It's a nice pre end-game pay-off that gives a kind of 'hellz yeah!' feeling, even as I recognised that it's contrived 

 

[The Spirit of Dance]

I didn't even notice this until the OP brought it up and I gotta say I agree with the OP on this. I want to be a regular Joe or perhaps something below that that 'rises to power' from the very bottom to the the freaking top.

Modifié par supremebloodwolf, 13 mars 2013 - 01:53 .

[Droma]

supremebloodwolf wrote...

I didn't even notice this until the OP brought it up and I gotta say I agree with the OP on this. I want to be a regular Joe or perhaps something below that that 'rises to power' from the very bottom to the the freaking top.

which is exactly the story of act I & II of dragon age 2?

[Sakanade]

Emzamination wrote...

krul2k wrote...

for a hero to be a hero there has to be a spark of something great in them, something that makes them stand out an something that stands them above your ordinary ppl

if there aint something "special" about your character then sorry but your just some other ordinary bum an not worthy of a game dedicated to you

The elder scrolls says hello.

Yes, because being the Prophesized Nerevarine is no big deal, right? It only means you are the re-incarnation of the greatest warrior-hero Vvardenfell has ever seen and  you're only destined to stop the Ash storms and end Dagoth Ur's terror from red Mountain, saving the entire Province of Morrowind in the process, while breaking the power of the last remaining demi-gods. (Elder Scrolls III)

Don't forget being the sole saviour of the Oblivion Crisis, who appeared in the Emperor's dreams destined to save the land and eventually become the new Sheogorath, a god. (Elder Scrolls IV)

Oh and lastly, you are the last of the Dragonborn, a person with the soul of a dragon, and the only person who can absorb a dragon's soul and use shouts as if they come to you naturally, and have been prophesized to save the entire realm thousands of years before you even existed. (Elder Scrolls V)



As soon as I saw you post that ridiculous argument, I just stopped reading, as you clearly haven't checked your games.

if you want to be an average joe that much, go play a stormtrooper in some star wars game.

Stories like this with Heroes and their comrades have existed for thousands of years, it's in our human nature to attribute special abilities or skills to certain people, to make them seem larger than life.

Take Achilles for example, or Ajax, and even Alexander the Great.

These stories have always existed for as long as civilization has existed, some people are born great, born to lead and guide.

Modifié par Sakanade, 13 mars 2013 - 02:41 .

[Emzamination]

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Didn't you create a thread explaining how you want the EXACT opposite of what you have described in the OP? Something about the protagonist having experience and having reputation, I believe.

Oh hey jonah! Nope, wasn't me. I find the idea of the pc being already well known repulsive.

[TK514]

Emzamination wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Didn't you create a thread explaining how you want the EXACT opposite of what you have described in the OP? Something about the protagonist having experience and having reputation, I believe.

Oh hey jonah! Nope, wasn't me. I find the idea of the pc being already well known repulsive.

You must hate video games, and most fiction in general, then.

[Sakanade]

TK514 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

Didn't you create a thread explaining how you want the EXACT opposite of what you have described in the OP? Something about the protagonist having experience and having reputation, I believe.

Oh hey jonah! Nope, wasn't me. I find the idea of the pc being already well known repulsive.

You must hate video games, and most fiction in general, then.

Hypocrite OP, complains about everything Bioware has done, yet has all their games registered.

Someone get a mod in here to close this useless thread down.

Modifié par Sakanade, 13 mars 2013 - 03:23 .

[Emzamination]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Heroes don't become heroes 'when they want to be'. They're special because they have a drive in them others may not have.

Anderson makes a wonderful point of it in what was supposed to be a question about the N7 program for a documentary. About how people who were given everything, and expected great things of, fell flat on their face as soon as they got out the shuttle. About how others that barely made the cut and were expected to die in the first hour are the ones that persevered and became the best of the best.

I don't think you truly understand what a hero is, OP.

If you want to play a hero that starts out as an Average Joe with no skills whatsoever, then I hear they just released a new expansion pack for the Sims 3.

Quit reading the disney stories. You don't need any special pixie dust inside you to go out and accompish acts of heroism. Every protagonist in fallout has been a unknown Jane doe, that rose from absolutely nothing to gain heroic fame by their own merits. Hell the whole Lord of the ring series revolves around a group of lazy pot smoking midgets accomplishing heroic feats.

[Emzamination]

Sakanade wrote...


Hypocrite OP, complains about everything Bioware has done, yet has all their games registered.

Someone get a mod in here to close this useless thread down.

Actually I'm complaining about one issue in their games. and I may be wrong here, but doesn't the fact I have all their games registered justify my right to complain about said issue? Experience and all that. If you're going to do the angry fanboy thing, at least be logical and unbiased about it.

Also mods have already blown through here. It's cool. <link>

[grumpymooselion]

mrpoultry wrote...

In other words, no more more mary sues.

More overused and misused terminology to the point of the terminology being meaningless.

[NedPepper]

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

[grumpymooselion]

nedpepper wrote...

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

I actually thought DA2, despite its many flaws, from a basic concept standpoint, was the better concept, when compared with DA:O. DA:O came to essentially the very simple, "special hero saves the land from the dark army" a very typical fantasy trope, no matter what else is thrown in there. DA2 definitely tried to escape from that, and, as a result, despite its many flaws, in my mind, will always be held in higher regard than DA:O. Hawke is just a better character, the supporting companions are stronger and the 'your life in the city as events unfold that aren't necessrily about you' approach is much preferable to me.

The only things from DA:O I really thought were exceptional were the Landsmeet and Loghain. Both the Landsmeet concept and Loghain were great, but both also deserved a better game than DA:O. Loghain especially deserved a less generic and typical game than DA:O.

[imbs]

nedpepper wrote...

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

DA2 got crapped on for a whole assortment of different reasons, and in said game you are told you are a champion and super special via varric story time extremely early on regardless of what happens

[The Elder King]

nedpepper wrote...

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

The OP is addressing a completely different issue. Emzamination doesn't want the PC to be "special" (meaning famous or well-know) for something he accomplished before the start of the game. She's totally fine is the PC becoming the most badass character in Thedas, but the PC should accomplish all of this when controlled by the player, not as a backstory.

Before the game, the PC should be a common person, not known for something he accomplished in the past, or because his lineage. That's what the OP is asking.

Modifié par hhh89, 13 mars 2013 - 03:54 .

[grumpymooselion]

imbs wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

DA2 got crapped on for a whole assortment of different reasons, and in said game you are told you are a champion and super special via varric story time extremely early on regardless of what happens

Only in the sense that he was recounting a story that had already occurred. Through your actual play of the story, and your actual experiences, you must still work up to that point.

[Shevy]

Janan Pacha wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

They already created a game with everything you described. It was called Dragon Age 2 and people have spent over a year crapping on it. The main argument being Hawke wasn't "special" enough. He/she was just a spectator and was never a true "hero."

This forum is just going in circles now.

I actually thought DA2, despite its many flaws, from a basic concept standpoint, was the better concept, when compared with DA:O. DA:O came to essentially the very simple, "special hero saves the land from the dark army" a very typical fantasy trope, no matter what else is thrown in there. DA2 definitely tried to escape from that, and, as a result, despite its many flaws, in my mind, will always be held in higher regard than DA:O. Hawke is just a better character, the supporting companions are stronger and the 'your life in the city as events unfold that aren't necessrily about you' approach is much preferable to me.

The only things from DA:O I really thought were exceptional were the Landsmeet and Loghain. Both the Landsmeet concept and Loghain were great, but both also deserved a better game than DA:O. Loghain especially deserved a less generic and typical game than DA:O.

Yeah, DA II's story concept was great, but the execution was terrible and disappointing. I disagree that Hawke was the better character, because he felt to me for nearly the most of the time as an errand boy without any importance to the plot. He was passive, and except killing 82173981 things, pretty useless. Trying to be anti-Qunari during the MotA ending is the best evidence.

And I wouldn't call Origins generic. While your task is clear, you are effectivly fighting it only in the end. For me, it didn't feel like the typical "former no-name saves the day" story, especially with the human noble origin. You can roleplay way more reasons to gather support and allies. DA II provided zero motivations for Hawke.

[The Six Path of Pain]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...
Perhaps I worded that wrong,I mean we should be allowed to start from absolutely nothing to being an uber badass hero.Like in Oblivion your just some nobody in a dungeon who isn't anyone special.Then you go on to help Martin Septim and the Blades and play a huge role in stoping Mehrunes Dagon.Then for your part in stoping the crisis you are rewarded with the title of Champion of Cyrodil,and are the only person outside of the Septims(and who isn't an emperor)to be allowed to wear Imperial Dragon Armor

The hero is Oblivion was a 'prodigy' or 'special' as well.  They were in the vision of the Emperor.

True enough,but what was he before before the crisis?

[grumpymooselion]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Yeah, DA II's story concept was great, but the execution was terrible and disappointing.

Only to some people.

I disagree that Hawke was the better character, because he felt to me for nearly the most of the time as an errand boy without any importance to the plot.

You're missing the point of his or her place in the world then, and why it was better than DA:O Warden hero around which everything 'ever' spun.

He was passive, and except killing 82173981 things, pretty useless.

Wholly untrue.

Trying to be anti-Qunari during the MotA ending is the best evidence.

That's a flaw in MotA, but that falls on mistakes that have nothing to do with Hawke's place as a character. You're not wrong though, I myself thought I should have been able to kill the dumb Elf earlier on, and let the trade happen, or take the list from her at the end and then kill her. I really wanted to kill the dumb elf.

The lack of that choice, however, wasn't a problem with Hawke, but with design decisions and the basic problem with putting Felicia's character from the micro-series in the game. Essentially because of who the character was, and who the actress was, and so on and so forth, they weren't going to let us kill her off or do any of the interesting things we wanted to do.

Take in contrast your interactions with the Qunari in the city prior where you could side with Aveline over the two elves or say, pretty much, that you agreed with what they'd done and that you didn't have a problem with them going over to the Qun. You could play that either way, for or again. Furthermore in the long run you have further options like whether you befriended Isabela, or just manipulated her into thinking she could trust you - allowing you to get the Relic back to the Qunari and hand Isabela over to them . . . or fight for Isabela's freedom. In further contrast you may not have earned her trust, resulting in not having the relic, resulting in the Qunari not getting their Relic back.

The contrast between that situation, and MotA is clear, where MotA was 'clearly' trying to preserve Felicia's character, meaning it was never going to let you do anything interesting involving her. That's not a problem with Hawke . . . that's some top level 'you can't do that' nonsense that can turn up in any game, unfortunately, when it involves a character from a book or show or movie suddenly ending up in your game of the same setting. Sad really, but, again, that's not something that you can blame on Hawke's character or her/his potential for action.

And I wouldn't call Origins generic.

Hero saves the land from the dark army is as generic as you get for a fantasy setting, no matter the justifications, excuses or additions. The end. No contest.

Modifié par Janan Pacha, 13 mars 2013 - 04:27 .

[_- Songlian -]

Emzamination wrote...

Hell the whole Lord of the ring series revolves around a group of lazy pot smoking midgets accomplishing heroic feats.

:lol:

OP:

 The way I see it, it's a nice push forward for our characters, not some standard to back up. "You're such a loser, here's a Reaper invasion for you to handle!" doesn't sound nearly as intriguing as "If there's someone who can do it, that's YOU. Now go show them your awesomeness, soldier!".

I know it's a bit contrived, but I don't care.

[Emzamination]

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

not to be rude Emzam, But being a nobody and then saving the world over the course of months or years seems just as silly to me.

How so? Is victory not more satisfying when you can say, you started with nothing and earned every recognition and praise by your own strengths and Ingenuity?

[LilyasAvalon]

Emzamination wrote...

Quit reading the disney stories. You don't need any special pixie dust inside you to go out and accompish acts of heroism. Every protagonist in fallout has been a unknown Jane doe, that rose from absolutely nothing to gain heroic fame by their own merits. Hell the whole Lord of the ring series revolves around a group of lazy pot smoking midgets accomplishing heroic feats.

Except you KIND OF DO. <_< That's not Disney, that's REAL LIFE.

Like I said before, being a hero, hell, being a survivalist, is 50% drive and willpower, 50% luck. Not everyone is capable of getting the willpower necessary to overcome great feats. That's why so many people fail where others successed. That's why so many people become overweight, that's why so many people do not get that job they interviewed for. That's why some people are killed from an illness that others will walk away from.

Even those who DO have that drive don't always successed because of maybe one little accident or one inch between life and death.

Modifié par LilyasAvalon, 13 mars 2013 - 04:56 .

[Emzamination]

- Songlian - wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Hell the whole Lord of the ring series revolves around a group of lazy pot smoking midgets accomplishing heroic feats.

:lol:

OP:

 The way I see it, it's a nice push forward for our characters, not some standard to back up. "You're such a loser, here's a Reaper invasion for you to handle!" doesn't sound nearly as intriguing as "If there's someone who can do it, that's YOU. Now go show them your awesomeness, soldier!".

I know it's a bit contrived, but I don't care.

^ Starting off as unknown or average doesn't mean becoming elite or famous is out of reach. It just means you don't start off as any of those things. Within the context of mass effect, If the pc hasn't turned into a one woman/man army, by the time the repears hit, then yeah. They are losers.