230 réponses à ce sujet

[LilyasAvalon]

Emzamination wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

not to be rude Emzam, But being a nobody and then saving the world over the course of months or years seems just as silly to me.

How so? Is victory not more satisfying when you can say, you started with nothing and earned every recognition and praise by your own strengths and Ingenuity?

... Isn't that what Shepard did? And the Warden?

Those characters would've had to WORK for that recognition and praise of their strengths. You ever tried being a War Hero? Or surviving a near death situation? Those things are NOT just handed to on a platter. It comes down to luck, skills and drive.

[Face of Evil]

Doesn't an abundance of natural talent or a special ability/legacy/training/whatever make the hero, well, the hero?

I've seen fantasy fiction where the protagonist is thoroughly not badass — the Hobbit comes to mind — but that's kind of hard to pull off in an action RPG where you're fighting for you rlife from scratch.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[Emzamination]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Quit reading the disney stories. You don't need any special pixie dust inside you to go out and accompish acts of heroism. Every protagonist in fallout has been a unknown Jane doe, that rose from absolutely nothing to gain heroic fame by their own merits. Hell the whole Lord of the ring series revolves around a group of lazy pot smoking midgets accomplishing heroic feats.

Except you KIND OF DO. <_< That's not Disney, that's REAL LIFE.

Like I said before, being a hero, hell, being a survivalist, is 50% drive and willpower, 50% luck. Not everyone is capable of getting the willpower necessary to overcome great feats. That's why so many people fail where others successed. That's why so many people become overweight, that's why so many people do not get that job they interviewed for. That's why some people are killed from an illness that others will walk away from.

Even those who DO have that drive don't always successed because of maybe one little accident or one inch between life and death.

Don't know what reality you're living in, but in mine, ordinary everyday pepole do extraordinary things all the time, when the situation arises. Whether it be wrestling a gunman for his weapon during a robbery, running into a burning building to save child, jumping into dangerous waters to save someone from drowning or spear tackling a thief running with a womans purse.

[Emzamination]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

unbentbuzzkill wrote...

not to be rude Emzam, But being a nobody and then saving the world over the course of months or years seems just as silly to me.

How so? Is victory not more satisfying when you can say, you started with nothing and earned every recognition and praise by your own strengths and Ingenuity?

... Isn't that what Shepard did? And the Warden?

Those characters would've had to WORK for that recognition and praise of their strengths. You ever tried being a War Hero? Or surviving a near death situation? Those things are NOT just handed to on a platter. It comes down to luck, skills and drive.

They were just handed to you on a platter, because you didn't expierence or earn any of that. Did you hold off legions of pirates singlehandedly in the skillian blitz to earn that star of terra nova? I sure didn't. Did you navigate your way through the thresher maws Akuze to earn your staute and commision there? I didn't. Did you kill hundreds of slavers on torfan as they tried to surrender to be hailed as a hero? I sure didn't.

What luck, skill or drive did you as the player invest into any of those pre-history feats you're getting such praise for? Nada, zippo, zilch.

Modifié par Emzamination, 13 mars 2013 - 05:23 .

[AlanC9]

LilyasAvalon wrote...


Even those who DO have that drive don't always successed because of maybe one little accident or one inch between life and death.

Sure. But that is built into the game anyway, since the player will just reload if he loses from bad luck. (He'll also reload if he loses from lack of skill, etc.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 mars 2013 - 05:22 .

[AlanC9]

Emzamination wrote...

They were just handed to you on a platter, because you didn't expierence or earn any of that. Did you hold off legions of pirates siglehandedly in the skillian blitz to earn that star of terra nova? I sure didn't. Did you navigate your way through the thresher maws Akuze to earn your staute and commision there? I didn't. Did you kill hundreds of slavers on torfan as they tried to surrender to be hailed as a hero? I sure didn't.

What luck, skill or drive did you as the player invest into any of those pre-history feats you're getting such praise for? Nada, zippo, zilch.

Let's say we had invested luck, skill, and drive, then. There's no conceptual reason why Bio couldn't have made Mass Effect: Origins, where we play out Shepard's early career events.

We'd end up combat sequences that are balanced to our low-level chracters and maybe the player's inexperience too, just like in the regular game.

What's the difference?

[Emzamination]

Face of Evil wrote...

Doesn't an abundance of natural talent or a special ability/legacy/training/whatever make the hero, well, the hero?

I've seen fantasy fiction where the protagonist is thoroughly not badass — the Hobbit comes to mind — but that's kind of hard to pull off in an action RPG where you're fighting for you rlife from scratch.

No

[Shevy]

Janan Pacha wrote...

He was passive, and except killing 82173981 things, pretty useless.

Wholly untrue.

I wouldn't call Origins generic

Hero saves the land from the dark army is as generic as you get for a fantasy setting, no matter the justifications, excuses or additions. The end. No contest.

Hawke was naive to the amount I would normally doing something like a facepalm.

There is a killer running around, looking for good looking women in middle age, giving them white flowers. Your mom falls into his category and mentions that she got to know someone. In that moment it was clear to me that it's going to be the killer. Later Bodahn (?) mentions that someone delivered white flowers and Hawke still doesn't immediatly realise what's going on.

Or that you can't take an active role against Beatrice or how the intriguing sister was called. No, you had to wait till everything goes mad, even when her plan is clear the moment you have to escort the Sareebas.

And while you can say that an active part in these and MotA issues would have required a lot of branching and work from the developers, I got the feeling that Hawke is usefull and active like a stone.


I agree that the overall task or goal in Origins is the typical one, but it is handled differently from the standard in that that you're effectivly fighting the Darkspawn only in the last part of the game. Before, you can roleplay a political motivation or in the case of the human noble a motivation born in vengeance. That's why it doesn't come across as "generic" to me.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 13 mars 2013 - 05:31 .

[Blazomancer]

Emzamination wrote...
Don't know what reality you're living in, but in mine, ordinary everyday pepole do extraordinary things all the time, when the situation arises. Whether it be wrestling a gunman for his weapon during a robbery, running into a burning building to save child, jumping into dangerous waters to save someone from drowning or spear tackling a thief running with a womans purse.

Word.

I believe "not everyone is capable of getting the willpower necessary to overcome great feats" is not true. After all, people cultivate willpower, no one's born with it. Well, may be mages are born with a bit more willpower, but warriors and rogues are kind of same.

It reminded me of a quote from the movie 'Black Hawk Down' - "Nobody asks to be a hero, it just sometimes turns out that way."

[Emzamination]

AlanC9 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

They were just handed to you on a platter, because you didn't expierence or earn any of that. Did you hold off legions of pirates siglehandedly in the skillian blitz to earn that star of terra nova? I sure didn't. Did you navigate your way through the thresher maws Akuze to earn your staute and commision there? I didn't. Did you kill hundreds of slavers on torfan as they tried to surrender to be hailed as a hero? I sure didn't.

What luck, skill or drive did you as the player invest into any of those pre-history feats you're getting such praise for? Nada, zippo, zilch.

Let's say we had invested luck, skill, and drive, then. There's no conceptual reason why Bio couldn't have made Mass Effect: Origins, where we play out Shepard's early career events.

We'd end up combat sequences that are balanced to our low-level chracters and maybe the player's inexperience too, just like in the regular game.

What's the difference?

I take it you haven't done aherns first contact survival scenerio on pinnacle station? Bioware doesn't pull punches when delivering combat. But anyways the difference is you'd of earned that recognition yourself through your own merit, not just have a privledged badge slapped on your chest. If you wish to dumb down the idea to breezing through on easy, that's your call. I personally never play on anything lower than insanity, so challenge wouldn't be a problem for me.

Modifié par Emzamination, 13 mars 2013 - 05:36 .

[grumpymooselion]

Shevy_001 wrote...

Hawke was naive to the amount I would normally doing something like a facepalm.

Unless you played them this way, and I don't see how you could have, this is quite untrue.

There is a killer running around, looking for good looking women in middle age, giving them white flowers. Your mom falls into his category and mentions that she got to know someone. In that moment it was clear to me that it's going to be the killer.

On a player side, it's true, but from a character standpoint there's really no reason you should assume that any relationship your mother gets in is going to end up being with a killer. In fact, with certain endings to that plotline in the prior act, your Hawke may even think they've stopped the murders entirely already.

Later Bodahn (?) mentions that someone delivered white flowers and Hawke still doesn't immediatly realise what's going on.

The second they find out about the white flowers, Hawke makes the connection.

Or that you can't take an active role against Beatrice or how the intriguing sister was called. No, you had to wait till everything goes mad, even when her plan is clear the moment you have to escort the Sareebas.

This has nothing to do with Hawke, and wholly to do with game design and the developer's purposefully chosen limitations. This has nothing to do with Hawke's character. This is actually true of the example of the Mother as well, they could have offered you options to deal with that situation in a different way, but they didn't either because they never intended to or because the game was rushed out. Regardless these are subjects of game design, not of Hawke's character.

[Face of Evil]

Of course, the Lord of the Rings doesn't count for much, as it's made pretty clear that Bilbo and Frodo — by virtue of being hobbits — are the only ones capable of bearing the One Ring without totally being corrupted by its power.

And like I said, useless heroes are very hard to pull off in an action RPG.

Janan Pacha wrote...

On a player side, it's true, but from a character standpoint there's really no reason you should assume that any relationship your mother gets in is going to end up being with a killer.

Truth be told, if you accept Gascard's information as accurate, Leandra doesn't fit Quentin's MO. She's healthy and she's older, but she doesn't meet the "few social ties" requirement.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 mars 2013 - 05:44 .

[grumpymooselion]

Face of Evil wrote...

Of course, the Lord of the Rings doesn't count for much, as it's made pretty clear that Bilbo and Frodo — by virtue of being hobbits — are the only ones capable of bearing the One Ring without totally being corrupted by its power.

And like I said, very hard to do in an action RPG.

Not entirely, part of the issue comes with the concept of combat being one of the main, if not the only, way to get through the game. Before Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines degenerates into a hack and slash in the sewers, you're able to get through the prior game on dialogue alone, by advancing your character's social abilities alone. Maybe the answer to the sort of character required to complete a heroe's journey is less about the sort of character you start with . . . and more about having multiple paths to success.

[Emzamination]

Face of Evil wrote...

Of course, the Lord of the Rings doesn't count for much, as it's made pretty clear that Bilbo and Frodo — by virtue of being hobbits — are the only ones capable of bearing the One Ring without totally being corrupted by its power

What's this? Bilbo had severe withdrawal and turned into a monster like golem. Frodo went completely darkside to the point where he was ready to go over a cliff into molten lava, just to have the ring. Yeah not totally corrupted at all.

And like I said, useless heroes are very hard to pull off in an action RPG.

I agree useless heroes are hard to pull off, no matter what the genre. However unknown and average heroes... not so much.

[Face of Evil]

Emzamination wrote...

What's this? Bilbo had severe withdrawal and turned into a monster like golem. Frodo went completely darkside to the point where he was ready to go over a cliff into molten lava, just to have the ring. Yeah not totally corrupted at all.

The One Ring had a cumulative effect on them, sure. But Bilbo had the One Ring for years and was actually able to put it aside. Frodo bore the ring across Middle-Earth; it was only at the Cracks of Doom that he faltered.

Compare that to the Ring's effects on Boromir, who was driven to try and steal the Ring,  or Gandalf, who would have become a new Dark Lord to rival that of Sauron.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 mars 2013 - 05:59 .

[Emzamination]

Face of Evil wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

What's this? Bilbo had severe withdrawal and turned into a monster like golem. Frodo went completely darkside to the point where he was ready to go over a cliff into molten lava, just to have the ring. Yeah not totally corrupted at all.

The One Ring had a cumulative effect on them, sure. But Bilbo had the One Ring for years and was actually able to put it aside. Frodo bore the ring across Middle-Earth; it was only at the Cracks of Doom that he faltered.

Compare that to the Ring's effects on Boromir, who was driven to try and steal the Ring,  or Gandalf, who would have become a new Dark Lord to rival that of Sauron.

Bilbo didn't put the ring aside of his own will, Gandalf forced him to let it go. The tength of time it took for the rings corruption to completely progress is irrelavant, as each person including the two hobbits was different. The fact that frodo submitted decades behind bilbo throws your theory out the window.

[Face of Evil]

The circumstances were different. The burden of the One Ring was far heavier for Frodo than Bilbo. After being inactive for the duration of the Hobbit, Sauron had risen again in Mordor and the One Ring tried to exhort Frodo into bringing Him the ring.

Rather than continue this pointless back and forth about whether hobbits were "special," I'll note that even in the Lord of the Rings, the hobbits are surrounded by a retinue of extraordinary individuals who protect them from orcs and Ringwraiths alike.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 13 mars 2013 - 06:18 .

[Emzamination]

^ You're right evil, we should return to the issue at hand.

@your note I'll remind you that the entire fellowship was separated rather early on in their mission. For the duration, the hobbits were on their own, protecting themselves.

[Herky]

I bothered me a bit playing Far Cry 3 how an ordinary douche bag kid instantly became better than a whole island of mercenaries. Isn't good to have some explanation on how the main character can beat dragons, hordes of darkspawn and so on?
If any of the future DA games would have a ordinary guy as the main character they would have to make like a Heavy Rain set in Thedas for it to really feel right. That is of course if you can't simply accept that it's a video game and this kind of logic doesn't necessarily apply...

[Emzamination]

Herky wrote...

I bothered me a bit playing Far Cry 3 how an ordinary douche bag kid instantly became better than a whole island of mercenaries. Isn't good to have some explanation on how the main character can beat dragons, hordes of darkspawn and so on?
If any of the future DA games would have a ordinary guy as the main character they would have to make like a Heavy Rain set in Thedas for it to really feel right. That is of course if you can't simply accept that it's a video game and this kind of logic doesn't necessarily apply...

^ What logic? That's all personal opinion.

[Herky]

@Emzamination Well, as people have said before that not everyone is capable of huge heroic feats, I guess. Wouldn't it feel odd if your city was attacked by Dragon-Flemeth and you, as the farmers kid without any combat experience, beat this ancient witch?

[Eternal Phoenix]

Pretty much every RPG puts you down as some sort of chosen one or someone highly skilled compared to other ordinary people. Why attack only Bioware here? The worst culprits are Bethesda who have you playing as reincarnated gods.

[grumpymooselion]

I think the issue is more about keeping initial challenges level. In old RPGs the 'rat' was a common early foe for the character that didn't know his _____ from his ______ for a reason. While one might note that they wouldn't want to be killing rats at the start, and for good reason, the basic concept of foes that seem . . . 'right' for a given character's state in life, and ability, whatever it may be, is a sensible one. Getting better so that you can take on the more powerful foes, rather than level scaling them to the player. Gothic II is a great example of this where you really had to work your butt off to get on the level of some of the more vicious monsters and foes that the world had waiting for you.

[WillPF363]

Janan Pacha wrote...

Hero saves the land from the dark army is as generic as you get for a fantasy setting, no matter the justifications, excuses or additions. The end. No contest.

First of all, Origins might just be "hero saves land from dark army", but DA2 is just "Immigrant  tries to make home, acquaintence breaks world"/

And you may be right that Origins was generic, but it was a generic story told well vs. Da2's more unique story executed poorly.  I know which I'd rather have.

Modifié par WillPF363, 13 mars 2013 - 07:07 .

[WillPF363]

Emzamination wrote...
Don't know what reality you're living in, but in mine, ordinary everyday pepole do extraordinary things all the time, when the situation arises. Whether it be wrestling a gunman for his weapon during a robbery, running into a burning building to save child, jumping into dangerous waters to save someone from drowning or spear tackling a thief running with a womans purse.

Sure but it's one thing for ordinary people to rise to the occassion for spur of the moment heroics, it's a bit different when they have to engage in a campaign.  Not that I'm entirely against it.  I'm hoping that the next Mass Effect will tell a much smaller story, with a protagonist that doesn't have the support of governments etc.  But if the protagonist is dealing with the fate of nations (or galaxies), I'd rather they be in a position where leaders will actually have to  hear them out (rather than just ordering that impertinant peasent away).

I'd also argue Origins is not guilty of what you're arguing.  Even those few Origins which might be overhyped- Human Noble, Dwarven Noble- they lose everything.  All the Origins do.  You do have to build yourself up.
Plus, I think having random person of f the street as protagonist  in his series (at least as it stads now) makes no sense.  At the very least there needs to be an explanation for their skills.  Otherwise it's kind of bad writing. 

Modifié par WillPF363, 13 mars 2013 - 07:28 .