252 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreasShepard]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

The strange thing is that while it would have been great to have had s/s option from beginning the whole Kaiden arc actually works better because of it. In ME1 it had some hints (the whole cinematic whern you visit him), in 2 the Normandy destruction goodbye and especially the meeting on colony. From a storytelling point of view it actually gives the Citadel date scene more depth and impact.

I still don't understand why they can't just implement it. Kaidan and Shepard's lines were recorded. I feel like they removed it due to the controversy. 

At any rate, what's done is done. I'm hoping that the next ME game will have M/M romance from the very beginning. I don't even have the desire to play the previous 2 games because I feel like something is always missing. <_<

It does feel weird but I find that headcanon goes a long way, like for instance at the end of ME1 if you're close with Kaidan he'll be the one who looks up eagerly at Shepard climbing down from the Reaper rubble.  To me in that moment he's not ready to express his feelings for his commanding officer but it's pretty apparent that he cares a lot about Shepard just from the relieved smile on his face.

Then on Horizon he talks about losing Shepard felt like losing a limb, obviously a good friend might say that too but knowing what comes in ME3 gives the line that much more meaning.  Plus there's some dialogue with the Illusive man after the Kaidan confrontation that loosely implies Shepard has a thing for Kaidan, and Shep gets really defensive if you pick the right option. 

[k.lalh]

As a straight male, who is supportive of civil liberties, I would like to commend the positivity of this thread.

It's a welcome departure from the hate filled threads. Nice to know that there are actually human beings here.

But what took me by surprise, is how many ME gamers (at least on this forum), are of different sexual orientations, and I would like to commend BioWare for implementing the S/S romances. It adds richness and suggests a more inclusive future. Kind of like what Star Trek: TOS did back in the day.

The VG game crowd always struck me as a bunch of 12 yr old kids who think they're tough by yelling homophobic slurs on XBL. Maybe I play too much CoD, but it's nice to see that the ME crowd is more mature than that.

[Battlebloodmage]

AndreasShepard wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

kobayashi-maru wrote...

The strange thing is that while it would have been great to have had s/s option from beginning the whole Kaiden arc actually works better because of it. In ME1 it had some hints (the whole cinematic whern you visit him), in 2 the Normandy destruction goodbye and especially the meeting on colony. From a storytelling point of view it actually gives the Citadel date scene more depth and impact.

I still don't understand why they can't just implement it. Kaidan and Shepard's lines were recorded. I feel like they removed it due to the controversy. 

At any rate, what's done is done. I'm hoping that the next ME game will have M/M romance from the very beginning. I don't even have the desire to play the previous 2 games because I feel like something is always missing. <_<

It does feel weird but I find that headcanon goes a long way, like for instance at the end of ME1 if you're close with Kaidan he'll be the one who looks up eagerly at Shepard climbing down from the Reaper rubble.  To me in that moment he's not ready to express his feelings for his commanding officer but it's pretty apparent that he cares a lot about Shepard just from the relieved smile on his face.

Then on Horizon he talks about losing Shepard felt like losing a limb, obviously a good friend might say that too but knowing what comes in ME3 gives the line that much more meaning.  Plus there's some dialogue with the Illusive man after the Kaidan confrontation that loosely implies Shepard has a thing for Kaidan, and Shep gets really defensive if you pick the right option. 

At least they recorded most of the lines for maleShep. I don't know if I should feel grateful or annoyed when they recorded the extra lines for modding files. If they go that far, they should just put it in the game. I'm over it now. I do like the relationship between Kaidan and Shepard. I'm just a tiny bit bitter I suppose. I know I should think more positive, but everytime I go through Kaidan romance, I always think how nice it would be to start a romance from the beginning. Being single for 2 games while the female squadmates keep hitting on you can get a bit annoying.  Ok, I'll stop ranting on this now. Just to say on the record that I appreciate ME team for finally implement the options, so I don't want anyone to get the impression that I don't. SWTOR is an entire different matter though. <_<

[Battlebloodmage]

k.lalh wrote...

As a straight male, who is supportive of civil liberties, I would like to commend the positivity of this thread.

It's a welcome departure from the hate filled threads. Nice to know that there are actually human beings here.

But what took me by surprise, is how many ME gamers (at least on this forum), are of different sexual orientations, and I would like to commend BioWare for implementing the S/S romances. It adds richness and suggests a more inclusive future. Kind of like what Star Trek: TOS did back in the day.

The VG game crowd always struck me as a bunch of 12 yr old kids who think they're tough by yelling homophobic slurs on XBL. Maybe I play too much CoD, but it's nice to see that the ME crowd is more mature than that.

If you think that's bad, try saying someone positive about gay on PSN, you get chased out with pitchforks. I can't remember how many times people accuse each other of being gay there. Even on here, you can see sometimes see people using the "f" words. People had become more tolerant, I admit, but we still got a long way to go. It's really nice to see straight guys who treat LGBT as people instead of second class citizens. 

[IllusiveManJr]

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

[Battlebloodmage]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

I could say the same thing about Garrus and Tali, but yeah, let's not bring it up. I'm tired of bait posts. 

[IllusiveManJr]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

I could say the same thing about Garrus and Tali, but yeah, let's not bring it up. I'm tired of bait posts. 

My thread in the RB wasn't even intent to cause a flame war. To me it felt very forced and out of nowhere and I spent awhile trying to word my OP so that it didn't come off in any way as inflammatory. But someone on page two said something about how Shepard behaviour changing, I went to sleep, and when I woke up it was an awful thread of forty plus pages of people raging at each other. Then thirty minutes later it was gone.

There's some things I won't try to ever try to joke about, that's homosexuality, race, and religion (Hanar religion excluded).

[Battlebloodmage]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

I could say the same thing about Garrus and Tali, but yeah, let's not bring it up. I'm tired of bait posts. 

My thread in the RB wasn't even intent to cause a flame war. To me it felt very forced and out of nowhere and I spent awhile trying to word my OP so that it didn't come off in any way as inflammatory. But someone on page two said something about how Shepard behaviour changing, I went to sleep, and when I woke up it was an awful thread of forty plus pages of people raging at each other. Then thirty minutes later it was gone.

There's some things I won't try to ever try to joke about, that's homosexuality, race, and religion (Hanar religion excluded).

It's all personal opinions. You're free to headcannon Kaidan as totally straight. Just randomly bring up the topic it and tell people that their romance is forced is just seemed a bit rude. At this point, I'm tired of keep defending Mshenko's relationship. It's ridiculous enough that all the bisexual arguments only arise on M/M relationship threads, I don't want to start it here. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 15 mars 2013 - 06:45 .

[IllusiveManJr]

I wasn't trying to be rude and I'm sorry if you took at that way, I didn't read the eight pages before I posted and I certainly wasn't trying to target you in any way.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's not that I'm offended or anything like that, I just don't want this to turn into another argument about bisexuality. It tends to attract a lot of trolls. If you visit DA3 board often, you would know why I don't want to discuss this topic. It always ends up in bickering and banning.

[IllusiveManJr]

I don't visit any of the Dragon Age sub-forums anymore. I went to the DA2 story one and saw a flame war about Christianity, a "discussion" about lack of black people, and then another thread complaining about the *insert not nice word for gay people here* ruining DA2. It was awful and I've only been there once to ask about FemHawke changing the story since then.

Edit: I honestly didn't think BSN could get that bad.

Modifié par IllusiveManJr, 15 mars 2013 - 06:51 .

[Xilizhra]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

I don't visit any of the Dragon Age sub-forums anymore. I went to the DA2 story one and saw a flame war about Christianity, a "discussion" about lack of black people, and then another thread complaining about the *insert not nice word for gay people here* ruining DA2. It was awful and I've only been there once to ask about FemHawke changing the story since then.

Edit: I honestly didn't think BSN could get that bad.

Oh, it is that bad. The rarity is when it gets better. Of course, most of the badness tends to coalesce in specific threads, but it's almost never not there.

[Battlebloodmage]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

I don't visit any of the Dragon Age sub-forums anymore. I went to the DA2 story one and saw a flame war about Christianity, a "discussion" about lack of black people, and then another thread complaining about the *insert not nice word for gay people here* ruining DA2. It was awful and I've only been there once to ask about FemHawke changing the story since then.

Edit: I honestly didn't think BSN could get that bad.

It's that bad. There are a lot of homophobia surrounding the forum. It's not as bad as BSN or XBN, but it's not paradise either.
I can recall 3 instances from the top of my head where people compared gay to bestiality
2 instances they compare homosexual to pedophilia
4 instances where people bring in bisexuality when it has almost nothing to do with the topic
Worst yet, 8/10 times it's always on M/M threads. It's obvious that it's not the bisexuality that they have problems with. <_<

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 15 mars 2013 - 07:02 .

[k.lalh]

I'd hope that within a few years the homophobia in society will whither down to just the fringes. It took decades for relationships between different ethnicities to gain mainstream support/tolerance. But at least on BSN, the open and intentional intolerance is limited to just a few individuals, which make it better than XBL. (can't speak for PSN)

[sravenblood]

I love you guys *Hugs* This is one of the best, if not THE best discussion threads I have ever seen or read in a gaming community. I have always felt left out in most games I enjoy because they are always straight protagonists. Not that that is bad, just exclusive. BW has always made me feel inclusive, even if the romances are not at a high level yet, they may indeed get there.

[AndreasShepard]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

It doesn't feel forced to me but an extra bit of dialogue wouldn't have hurt, something along the lines of "I realized I had feelings for you but you died before I got the chance to say anything"  or something along those lines.

The thing is Bioware doesn't go out of their way to make the romance scenes as unique as they should be.  It's one of the reasons we never got to see Kaidan using his biotics in any cutscene (until they finally did one for the citadel DLC) because Ashley isn't a biotic and they essentially have to be interchangeable.

The same thing applies to Kaidan's romance content in that maleshep has to be interchangeable with femshep and they animate his scenes with femshep first and then insert maleshep into the scene to save time and money.  So alas we didn't get that bit of dialogue that we probably should have. 

People often cite Kaidan never being into men before as a reason to discount his bisexuality but fact is my maleshep never made mention of liking guys in ME1 or 2 either so this kind of thing doesn't bother me.  Really it's sort of making the best out of a weird situation and had Bioware done the right thing and included s/s options from the start then this wouldn't be an issue, but again I don't mind so much in this scenario because it seems to actually make their story more compelling.

Modifié par AndreasShepard, 15 mars 2013 - 07:19 .

[L2 Sentinel]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

At least they recorded most of the lines for maleShep. I don't know if I should feel grateful or annoyed when they recorded the extra lines for modding files. If they go that far, they should just put it in the game. I'm over it now. I do like the relationship between Kaidan and Shepard. I'm just a tiny bit bitter I suppose. I know I should think more positive, but everytime I go through Kaidan romance, I always think how nice it would be to start a romance from the beginning. Being single for 2 games while the female squadmates keep hitting on you can get a bit annoying.  Ok, I'll stop ranting on this now. Just to say on the record that I appreciate ME team for finally implement the options, so I don't want anyone to get the impression that I don't. SWTOR is an entire different matter though. 

I totally get where you are coming from. I was super bitter when I was playing through ME and ME2. At least the groundwork for a same sex relationship with Kaidan was in place, even if they never fully implemented it. I thought the tension between Shepard and Kaidan was believable, and it made it easier to headcanon that they were always attracted to each other, they just never acted on it.

I like to blame the forced alliance with Cerberus for me not liking ME2 as much as most people seem to, but I know a big part of it was how lonely my Shepard felt. He has had zero romance options so far, and was separated from the one guy that seemed like he could be into him. The goodbye scene on the Normandy (helped by the fact that it was intended for the love interest) and the scene on Horizon really help sell the idea that Kaidan cares deeply about Shepard. So many femShep players complain about Kaidan on Horizon, leading me to believe that the dialogue is better when you don't have a previous romance.

I wasn't mad at Kaidan at all for not wanting to join up with Cerberus. I didn't want to do it, either. Unfortunately, my Shepard didn't have a choice. I was, however, bitter that Kaidan had such a small part in ME2, and I still couldn't romance him. I had to go two full games without a single romance option while straight guys had five (six if you count Kelly), straight ladies had four, and there was even one (two with Kelly) lesbian romance.

But after playing ME3, I changed my mind. I agree with kobayashi-maru and AndreasShepard that it actually makes for a better love story. I was really impressed with how they handled it. I'd actually prefer they didn't add the romance with Kaidan back into the first game. It would make it harder to recreate the experience when I have to try to get really close to Kaidan as a friend without him flirting with Shepard. If I have to shut him down, it ruins it.

Modifié par Rauhel, 15 mars 2013 - 07:30 .

[L2 Sentinel]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Kaidan gayness was very forced. But I won't get into that again. Brought that up on the romance boards and it turned into a 40+ page flame war in less than twelve hours.

I guess if you played straight Shepard and someone you've known for years randomly starts flirting, it could seem forced. However, if you play a gay Shepard that has had a thing for Kaidan for a while, but circumstances prevented him from acting on them, the romance doesn't seem forced at all. In my experience, Kaidan's feelings for Shepard felt genuine, and the way the story progressed was very organic.

Modifié par Rauhel, 15 mars 2013 - 07:47 .

[Dieb]

Rauhel wrote...
I guess if you played straight Shepard and someone you've known for years randomly starts flirting, it could seem forced. However, if you play a gay Shepard that has had a thing for Kaidan for a while, but circumstances prevented him from acting on them, the romance doesn't seem forced at all. In my experience, Kaidan's feelings for Shepard felt genuine, and the way the story progressed was very organic.

Drifting off into the Kaidan-thread direction here. But I too have a thought or two on that.

While I think the overall development of her character in ME1 is what made virtual-me fall in love with her, the romance with Ashley itself is a lot more forced.
All I really did was talk to her, and most of the time not agree with her at all, still without further context she suddenly goes into something along the lines of "you'll have to wait for me some more, Shepard". And even though she was growing on me more and more due to those discussions and her will to accept other POVs, there hasn't been a word about romantic interest by Shepard. Funny enough, I like to play the emotionally oblivious guy, who always ignores every advance until it's literally right in his face. And after the one single casual flirty remark on her part, you even get to say "I don't understand what you mean." If they let that out entirely and moved right to the Normandy lockdown moment, it would feel a lot more natural.

The next thing is Garrus. I understand that he's very popular and for good reason, but I never dug the entire "He's your best friend now. You're welcome" thing. Why? Because I had this friend already, and he died because I left him behind.

Throughout the first game my squad always consisted of one alien crew member, plus either Kaidan or Ash in turns. I liked them both. For probably the same reason why gay players were attracted to him in the first place, he was my go-to-guy, the one I talked about things I cannot adress or put in question in front of the rest of the crew. That was because he's very down to earth and trustworthy from the beginning, and his advice mostly very reasonable. So when Virmire came along, it came down to "The woman I may already be in love with, or my best friend?" Both of them are overly eager to sacrifice themselves, so no karma police there. After deciding -and I made that decision only partially with my brain- I was truly devastated. For many people it's either "Ash, female and availible, or Kaidan... the other guy" or "The good looking nice man or the racist b*tch", while I really had the hardest time.

So now every time Garrus goes all buddy action movie on me, and even though I grew fond of him over time, too, I can't help but mutter "you don't get to talk to me like that."

Modifié par Baelrahn, 15 mars 2013 - 10:03 .

[78stonewobble]

Two points from my perspective here.

The fascination with lesbians? Don't really get that. 2 women wanting to have sex with me, would obviously be nice, but that isn't the effin case there. I'd be watching and I'd find that weird and boring.

...

In general though... Regarding homosexuality, bisexuality... Along with my own sexuality it falls into the category of "It's noone elses business what I (or anyone else) does in their own bedroom." ...

I would have thought that in itself would bring some amount of respect and common courtesy.



PS: 
Around here homosexual marriage per a city hall was allowed from 1989. My own uncle got married back in 1990 I think. Last year law was passed to make it legal for the state church to perform same sex marriages in church as well.

Meaning I haven't pondered homosexual rights in many many years except when certain radical religious groups around here took offence at certain gay parades and there were altarcations.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 15 mars 2013 - 01:31 .

[HolyAvenger]

I always thought Kaidan and straight BroShep had a pretty good friendship, I can see that easily becoming something more for bi or gay BroShep. Shame they only put that in ME3, I think the ME1 controversy really burned BioWare on the SS romances.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 15 mars 2013 - 10:21 .

[EnvyTB075]

Garrus truly would've been the perfect character to have a gay alien romance. His sexuality wasn't really "set" so to speak, and considering what scraps of Turian culture we can glean from the codex same sex relationships are barely a blip on the radar for them, considering that they even allow hard drugs so long as it doesn't affect their duty.

[ghost9191]

eh i pick them for reasons. mostly a good match . but cortez was kinda getting over a husbandd so yeah .

youtu.be/leIanf9R2R0

sums it up


but haven't done the "gay" femshep side either. but idk never thought bout it.  love that they did it though.... just glad they weren't pushy like anders in DA2

Modifié par ghost9191, 15 mars 2013 - 10:28 .

[nrobbiec]

I always play as a gayshep and use console commands in ME1 to romance Kaidan (also gives you some well funny lines, Meer recorded the whole "don't call me princess" conversation with Harkin) so I have no reason to believe Kaidan has ever been into girls. I've brought it up before in other threads but I genuinely believe he doesn't have a set sexuality and it depends on the player and the direction they take. At the end of the day it would be nice if there were unique mshenko scenes but I get that there are budget constraints. Besides they acknowledge the ME1 romance, Meer recorded the "they didn't change me or how I feel about you" bit so I'm certainly not complaining.

[Enhanced]

k.lalh wrote...

I'd hope that within a few years the homophobia in society will whither down to just the fringes. It took decades for relationships between different ethnicities to gain mainstream support/tolerance. But at least on BSN, the open and intentional intolerance is limited to just a few individuals, which make it better than XBL. (can't speak for PSN)

It's limited because opinions that could be offensive to others are against the forum rules.

Modifié par Enhanced, 15 mars 2013 - 01:11 .