169 réponses à ce sujet

[Original Twigman]

RedJohn wrote...

I didn't have anything in that AIU nerf

everyone knows your role; gtfo

[ZiRK]

Haloburner wrote...

The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

They would have you believe none, but community feedback is usually factored in by any dev.

[Original Twigman]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Doesn't it seem like BSNers are having a rather large impact on these balance changes. Doesn't it seem like the most vocal, ever-present, albeit extremely annoying, posters seem to have quite a large impact on the direction of the game?

What does this mean for ME3 or ME4?

I struggle with this. I think the dialogue with the consumers is a huge part of what has made ME 3 MP better.

That having been said, it is a highly problematic model, and has it downsides (which I think rear their head more in an SP environment, personally.)

When it comes to balance changes, I think it is a combination of several things.

a) feedback data only the team has access to, which represents trends that will reflect how powers/weapons interact with each other and the bots.

Suggestions from the community, that call attention to issues that are not obvious from the data.

c) The Passions of the player base do, I believe, play  role. And you have certainly provided circumstantial evidence that they impact the decisions. I would even be inclined to say I think it makes sense to make them part of the decision, albeit a low-priority role.

d) Priority will likely be given to changes reflective of all three first examples.

I suspect that in the case of the AIU, all three factors played a role.

In the case of the Collector Adept and Talon, I suspect the second and third examples led to an examination of the data, which ultimately supported the changes.

And I'm sure there are other factors. I don't imagine BSN plays a bigger role than the feedback data, itself, but I'm certain they do, indeed play a role.

Yes, these are some of the questions that I think need to be asked.

The fundamental issue is, at what point is it okay for the fans to seemingly control certain aspects of the game?

There was the interview with the bioware employee discussing the perverse entitlement of the fanbase with Dragon Age 2, and how Dragon Agre 3 is being built upon fan input, now.

If ME3 balance changes (and in the future, ME4), is going to be influenced by these factors (if they indeed are), why keep these decisions hidden?

What I mean is... why make a decision to change the balance of the game, behind closed doors, meanwhile, you have a whole community of whiners and or complainers who don't know whether or not they are being heard.... yet when they seemingly do get heard (as it, so vaguely appears in the balance changes), they feel justified in what they do and continue to do so.

Its one thing for the team to work with fans to have an open discussion on feedback (i.e. statistics, using video as a medium for proof, highlighting numerical aspects that just don't fit), but its completely another for anecdotal bullcrap to seep into the game based on prominence

[UKStory135]

megabeast37215 wrote...

I think BSN has some influence... but the usage stats are the meat & potatos of their balance motivation.

Fagnan needs BSN... since he's pretty bad at the game... hard for him to figure out what's OP.

From what I've seen, we don't have influence on what gets balanced as much as the magnitude. For a long time, the balance changes were ripped straight from Godless Paladin's "Balance All the Things" thread.  The problem with that is that it often made balance in the short term actually worse, because that was a long term view with over a hundred changes.  For a period of a couple of months, sniper rifles went from being underwhelming to unusable after the TC nerf.  Eventually they got it right.

The magnitude of the AIU nerf, to me, seems directly in line with the complaints about her.

[UKStory135]

Notorious P I G wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

I think BSN has some influence... but the usage stats are the meat & potatos of their balance motivation.

Fagnan needs BSN... since he's pretty bad at the game... hard for him to figure out what's OP.

lol they were all noobs except brojo in that live stream.

In their defense, the weapons they were using were obviously terrible.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Original Stikman wrote...

This is to ask the question, how much do BSNers impact ideas for balance changes.

No idea. Impossible to say to what degree. There is indication to suggest that the devs do give a hear to what goes on here. We do represent the player community, after all.

What does this mean for ME3 or ME4?

What I hope for ME4 is that the devs come up with a better metric for gauging what is it that they want to balance things around. I have a suspicion that they are also in the dark (as many of us are) about how really to balance the game. I still believe the roles of the various kits should stand out, just as much as, or perhaps more than just how much of a damage one kit can deal relative to another. Right now, playing the game, it feels that esp. on higher difficulties there is simply a race to deal the more DPS. This has definitely become the case more and more I play, as the understaning in PUGs about the game seem to be improving, thereby leading to less opportunites for actual teamplay (right now majority of the time I see only during objective rounds that team play shines).

And, yes, BioWare, give us PvP for ME4. That would give a platform for some of these more vocal guys on the forums to a much needed opportunity to demostrate their statements...

[Blarg]

Original Stikman wrote...

I am even curios if the Devs have people in there ear from BSN (as they do play with BSNers) that subtely encourage them to look at very biased views on specific classes and/or guns.

I mean... i don't remember a single AIU video proving its OPness...

Meanwhile, we had some pretty hilarious spitfire/punisher videos with clear examples of power

That's a very good point. I can't seem to recall any hard evidence of the AIU being OP, just BSN's (or rather, certain posters') thoughts on it in opinion/rant threads.

What is it that makes something OP and worth nerfing to highly skilled players anyways? Don't say it's because it makes the game too easy, because most of the better players play together and having better PUGs doesn't affect them. Plus they don't have to play with those kits.

[Arctican]

I think BSN play a small, but still important role in the balance changes. For example, I recall someone asking if they could make the Falcon lighter and one of the Bioware staff said he'll look into it. A week or two later, the Falcon X had the new weight of 1.0.

Now, there are probably more cases of BSN asking for buffs and nerfs that are never realized
For example, consider the Harrier and Reegar, neither of which have been nerfed at all really.

Overall, I think BSN merely brings attention to a potential balance concern, but the actual balances changes are decided by the statistics and data that Bioware uses.

[RedJohn]

Original Stikman wrote...

RedJohn wrote...

I didn't have anything in that AIU nerf

everyone knows your role; gtfo

What role? i just gave my own opinion about it as everyone did 

[Original Twigman]

Good inputs guys, i'l try to address some individually in a bit

[TeamLexana]

I can't decide if this is a good thing or bad thing myself. On one hand, it seemed things like the Talon got some buff love after all our crying and back in the day our hurricane's got buffed so now it's one of the most powerful guns in the game - certainly THE most powerful smg for sure. These can't be seen as negatives at all.

But on the other hand, there seems to be this misunderstanding between what OP means. Especially given their skill level and the average joe's skill level. So for example, I'm a ME geek, I'll admit it. I've been playing the ME3 MP since the demo so if you give me AUI, I'll make her sing like Adele. But someone who just got the game or just doesn't play as much and can't handle gold much less plat, they'll make the AUI look like a tone-def pop star that's only semi famous at the moment because of sex tape.

[Bechter]

They have more than they should. Bioware overreacts often to videos and BSN herd mentality on balance. Having to adjust this many things only 2 weeks after release shows Bioware are pretty clueless internally when it comes to balance. The pre-nerfing of almost all reckoning DLC weapons is a great example.

[Nitrocuban]

I bet something between none to nothing at all.
BW has more data from the game itself than they could ever get from lurking on BSN.
Some people here may think they are important VIPs and it's fine when this gets their otherwise low selfesteem up a little. But they're not.

[Shinnyshin]

I think we may be overlooking one possibility. Bioware has all the stats. I'd imagine they could look up what %age of AIUs are going melee, how many collectors are taking Ascension, and the clear rates on those specs compared to the alternatives.

I'd think it far more likely that BSNers are causing Bioware to look up specific stat comparisons and then realize there's a problem. Or that BSN threads are causing more and more people to spec their AIUs melee, leading to rather shocking #s. That sort of thing.

[Tallgeese_VII]

We have impact, but only on most obvious problems.
(AIU, Krysae, Tactical Cloak, Piranha and such)

Other balance changes are integrated mostly because BW looks into usage statistics.

[whateverman7]

more than BW likes to admit to...you can tell this is their main source of feedback and what they use to 'investigate' specific data to make 'balance' changes...which has it's pros and cons...it's cool they listen to the community, but it's not cool they seem to only listen to the minority of the community...

[holdenagincourt]

I'm sure many are legends in their own minds.

Bechter wrote...

They have more than they should. Bioware overreacts often to videos and BSN herd mentality on balance. Having to adjust this many things only 2 weeks after release shows Bioware are pretty clueless internally when it comes to balance. The pre-nerfing of almost all reckoning DLC weapons is a great example.

tbh, it was refreshing that none of the new weapons caused a mass crisis of OP-ness on day 1 like Reegar, Krysae or Piranha. It's better that they start off kind of lackluster and get buffed until they're in the right place.

Modifié par holdenagincourt, 12 mars 2013 - 09:42 .

[L.ast L.ife]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

They play a major role.

...

Old news is old.

UKStory135 wrote...

For a long time, the balance changes were ripped straight from Godless Paladin's "Balance All the Things" thread.

...

Because this.^

[UKStory135]

TeamLexana wrote...

I can't decide if this is a good thing or bad thing myself. On one hand, it seemed things like the Talon got some buff love after all our crying and back in the day our hurricane's got buffed so now it's one of the most powerful guns in the game - certainly THE most powerful smg for sure. These can't be seen as negatives at all.

But on the other hand, there seems to be this misunderstanding between what OP means. Especially given their skill level and the average joe's skill level. So for example, I'm a ME geek, I'll admit it. I've been playing the ME3 MP since the demo so if you give me AUI, I'll make her sing like Adele. But someone who just got the game or just doesn't play as much and can't handle gold much less plat, they'll make the AUI look like a tone-def pop star that's only semi famous at the moment because of sex tape.

In the long term, it has worked out for the most part.  We have had short-term balance issues, though.  I personally have found that people who were good with the Paladin before he became the Tech-Combo all-star are extremely effective with her, but everyone else would have been better off to just stay as the GI.

[Xetto]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

They play a major role. Fagnan has no idea what he's doing; therefore, he looks to BSN to tell him what to do.

[Bechter]

holdenagincourt wrote...

I'm sure many are legends in their own minds.

Bechter wrote...

They have more than they should. Bioware overreacts often to videos and BSN herd mentality on balance. Having to adjust this many things only 2 weeks after release shows Bioware are pretty clueless internally when it comes to balance. The pre-nerfing of almost all reckoning DLC weapons is a great example.

tbh, it was refreshing that none of the new weapons caused a mass crisis of OP-ness on day 1 like Reegar, Krysae or Piranha. It's better that they start off kind of lackluster and get buffed until they're in the right place.

If I had confidence in them reaching a proper balance through thoughtful buffs I would agree. There is no assurance that this is their plan. Judging by Eric Fagnan's comments on the Spitfire I don't see it coming. 

The Reegar is unchanged other than a weight increase and they buffed the pirahna before perfoming major nerfs to the weapon.

[Tokenusername]

I would say, just as a rough estimate, about 0%.

Balance changes are not at all based on the Opinions of BSN, which at its very best would be less than 5% of the player base. Strong opinions on BSN may cause certain aspects to be reevaluated, but no balance changes were ever made for the sole purpose of appeasing the vocal minority.

[Original Twigman]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

What does this mean for ME3 or ME4?

What I hope for ME4 is that the devs come up with a better metric for gauging what is it that they want to balance things around. I have a suspicion that they are also in the dark (as many of us are) about how really to balance the game.

I think this is an interesting point:

Do you think, because bioware thought this multiplayer would flop, that they needed to "improv" the balance of the multiplayer? Do you think they will develop a better system now that they know people are interested, or do you tihnk that it will be a similar mishmash?

Do the devs still have a lot to learn or do they got the right idea and just need some tweaking?

I wonder what the devs think on this matter as well

[UKStory135]

L.ast L.ife wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

They play a major role.

...

Old news is old.

UKStory135 wrote...

For a long time, the balance changes were ripped straight from Godless Paladin's "Balance All the Things" thread.

...

Because this.^

A lot of people apparently have bad memories on here.