169 réponses à ce sujet

[Original Twigman]

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

I think people are confusing causes and effects here. Most of the time when the BSN ah "implodes" over a kit/weapon/character, it NEEDS a buff/nerf. So it is then buffed/nerfed, not because of the BSN, but because it actually needed it, people then point at the BSN, saying "Oh look, they called for "X", and "X" got "Y`ed", so its THIER fault." when in reality it had nothing to do with the BSN, and EVERYTHING to do with balance.

Hmm, evidence would point to the contrary on this. BSN didn't "implode" over the AIU, a few posters trolled others and got people to start talking about it in a very opposing manner. There was even a poll that suggested that most players didn't want the thing nerfed, but if you looked at the posts, it seemed to contradict that because the "nerf" threads were gettting more hits than the "stfu" threads.

On the otherside, you have certain heads whining about the inilftrator's cloak and reegar damage, but hardly anyone engages them, so it doesn't really become an issue.

BSN actually did implode over the AIU, I haven't seen so many threads regarding any one kit/weapon in such a short time ever, including the original krysae  ****storm. I honestly can`t recall a single time when the number of AIU threads on the first page alone was lower than 3. And the sheer amount of threads that got derailed by it are also worthy of note. And there`s some things that have essentially become set in stone, infiltrators cloak, and the reegar are at that point.

 In fact, this(set in stone mentality) actually kinda explains all the  "LOLWTF?" threads over the pahsedisrupter buff, And don`t tell me that the BSN had anything to do to that, It surprised everyone. Some of the other Balance changes are the same way, (I can`t remember specific number/changes, but There was a vindicator nerf at one pint correct?). Arguing that the BSN has a noticeable role in balance changes fits SOME of the facts, but it fails to cover them all, and like any other theory, it only takes 1 counter example to prove an argument invalid.

You seem to think i said that BSN influences all balance changes...

i did not...

It only takes one counter example to ruin your argument entirely, there`s more than one.

I can see though that the majority of people would rather point fingers and sling accusations than get down and realize that Bioware actually does balance changes for balance, and according to their own system, not what some poppycock on the BSN claims. If said poppycock happens to have some idea, and claims something will get balanced, all the sudden, its his entire fault for the said thing to get balanced, even though his post may have never been read by the devs.

Your argument that the BSN influences balance changes just doesn't hold water when you look at it, I originally thought the same way, but I`ve seen to many examples that directly contradict it to believe it anymore.  And finally, why does everyone concentrate on the nerf side of balance? I rarely see people who make threads like this commenting on the buffs.

I think you are reading a little too into my posts...

I said "how much influence does BSN have in balance changes?" not "BSN influences all balance changes"

BSN does influence balance changes whether you want to believe it or not... the buff to the batarian vanguard is self-evident as influenced by BSN as they did a direct 9% buff to power damage to match the force with other vangaurds.

They weren't even looking at him (months after he was released) until someone (I brought it up in my thread in sig indirectly, but Bjorn made a whole thread about it) mentioned it...

All it takes is 1 argument to make yours invalid that BSN has NO influence...

PS. I didn't make an argument, i asked a question.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 12 mars 2013 - 10:46 .

[RoundedPlanet88]

TeamLexana wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

For the majority of changes, I would say no. But I think there are some clear cases (including here), where people have made reasonable arguments, provided data and in-game examples to bolster their argument, and convinced Fagnan and Co., to at least take a look at an issue.

I agree. Some of these influences are great.

I am still puzzled at the AIU nerf as i don't recall anything other than anecdotal examples.

Same with the TGI stim pack nerf, which also seemed redundant as its still a great class and doesn't seem all that bothered with the nerf, but was still done.

It didn't hurt the TGI but the Havok on the other hand....

Yeah, at least this time around the AIU has multiple unique powers.

Modifié par RoundedPlanet88, 12 mars 2013 - 10:45 .

[Arctican]

Original Stikman wrote...

Arctican wrote...

I think BSN play a small, but still important role in the balance changes. For example, I recall someone asking if they could make the Falcon lighter and one of the Bioware staff said he'll look into it. A week or two later, the Falcon X had the new weight of 1.0.

Now, there are probably more cases of BSN asking for buffs and nerfs that are never realized
For example, consider the Harrier and Reegar, neither of which have been nerfed at all really.

Overall, I think BSN merely brings attention to a potential balance concern, but the actual balances changes are decided by the statistics and data that Bioware uses.

I want to believe this to be true, but the last balance changes seem to have skewed tha tconcept (considering the AIU, which probably didn't have the stats to back up the nerf)

I want to think they are objective, in that they don't take into account anecdotal stories... but this balance change was a bit wierd with tthat... or could it just be situtational as the game is coming to an end??

I don't think they completely rely on player statistics. It's not always the best indicator. They probably do a lot of testing within, in which they might have come to the same conclusion as some of the people on BSN.

[jakenou]

Original Stikman wrote...

I hate the formatting on this site.

I'll put in links, then when i actually see the post, the links aren't there... or you use color to highlight certain things, and the color disappears, but the "code" is still there.

Or the ever frustrating useless bullet points that either don't go where you want them to, or never leave

BSN needs a buff... and some nerfs

[upinya slayin]

jkthunder wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I hate the formatting on this site.

I'll put in links, then when i actually see the post, the links aren't there... or you use color to highlight certain things, and the color disappears, but the "code" is still there.

Or the ever frustrating useless bullet points that either don't go where you want them to, or never leave

BSN needs a buff... and some nerfs

Hey girl
(flirting mastery 21/100)

yeah getting my grind on
(stalker mastery, complete for 6th time)

[Original Twigman]

jkthunder wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I hate the formatting on this site.

I'll put in links, then when i actually see the post, the links aren't there... or you use color to highlight certain things, and the color disappears, but the "code" is still there.

Or the ever frustrating useless bullet points that either don't go where you want them to, or never leave

BSN needs a buff... and some nerfs

 just made a thread where it would be OKAY to bring that stuff up... otherwise the thread will get locked if you make a topic with it

[FlashAK]

Original Stikman wrote...

FlashAK wrote...

I knew you would be upset about the AIU nerf. She's still an awesome character though.

I think BSN plays a small role in balance changes, but BW probably relies on their own internal data collected on the game more than anything else. BW has proven time and time again that they don't exactly know what they're doing when it comes to balance.

tbh, i really don't care.

I am more upset with the outcome of petty heads trolling the boards and having influence on a game to which some aren't even very good at.

So, instead of being upset with the lesser-ones, I prefer to turn that into curiosity as to the process of balance changes.

I mean, when you think about it, how do you collect data on the impact/effectiveness of DR% or shields regen??

Same with the effectiveness of duration on ascension mode... how do you collect data on the usefulness of its duration and power/damage taken ratio?

If players are influencing the thought process, or at least bringing up topics for the devs to discuss at work, why not involve us in the process as well?? I am not saying get us involved in what to do... what I mean is, why not provide some explanation, statistics, and more? Afterall, with the information age, shouldn't we not be having more access to information rather than being left in the dark?

I don't think they take all the petty trolls opinions into consideration. If that were the case, the Harrier would've been nerfed to hell and back long ago.

Agreed, it would be nice if they involved us in some way with the changes. BW obviously doesn't have to ask our consent to change something, but it wouldn't hurt to create a thread stating what they're considering for the upcoming balance changes and open it up to BSN for discussion. 60-80% (maybe more) of the responses will probably be garbage, but there will be sensible ones that they can take into consideration.

I'm sure Cyonan, tyhw, peddro, etc. have better ideas on how to balance the game better than the team they currently have in place.

[BjornDaDwarf]

TeamLexana wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

For the majority of changes, I would say no. But I think there are some clear cases (including here), where people have made reasonable arguments, provided data and in-game examples to bolster their argument, and convinced Fagnan and Co., to at least take a look at an issue.

I agree. Some of these influences are great.

I am still puzzled at the AIU nerf as i don't recall anything other than anecdotal examples.

Same with the TGI stim pack nerf, which also seemed redundant as its still a great class and doesn't seem all that bothered with the nerf, but was still done.

It didn't hurt the TGI but the Havok on the other hand....

As an example, the single biggest example of BSN drive buffs was Archire and a few other people pushing for the BC force buff, and Plat stagger nerf, so that every kit could realiably stagger Phantoms on Platinum (as Vanguarding was essentially death on Plat to begin with).  

I think that the AIU and Stim Pack nerfs likely were driven more by data, but the raw amount of people using those kits, and BW realizing that they were on the ridiculous side for a self-heal.

Oh, and the Stim nerf really hasn't hurt the Havok much, if at all.   He's still an awesome, fun and powerful class, with a power that lets him restore shields at will.  

[RoundedPlanet88]

Original Stikman wrote...


I think you are reading a little too into my posts...

I said "how much influence does BSN have in balance changes?" not "BSN influences all balance changes"

BSN does influence balance changes whether you want to believe it or not... the buff to the batarian vanguard is self-evident as influenced by BSN as they did a direct 9% buff to power damage to match the force with other vangaurds.

They weren't even looking at him (months after he was released) until someone (I brought it up in my thread in sig indirectly, but Bjorn made a whole thread about it) mentioned it...

All it takes is 1 argument to make yours invalid that BSN has NO influence...

I never said the BSN has no influence. Just that you can`t guarantee that it does have influence. There`s a difference.
I actually have seen some changes made that were recommended by BSN`ers, Havock strike buff of the top of my head, but most of these were brought about by PM more than posts/threads. You still missed my entire point btw, but I didn`t say it clearly.
 Bioware does not buff/nerf unless THEY feel it is justified, community arguments may bring things to their attention, but at the end of the day, its Bioware who decides how/when/where to buff/nerf items. I`m not arguing that BSN has NO influence, but I`m not arguing that BSN has a GUANRENTEE of influence. I`m arguing that Bioware does what Bioware thinks best, much like any other sapient being. I could argue at you all day, and argue multiple positions, at the end of the day, you will decide/do something. Now, the real question, did I have an impact on your reasoning? I COULD have, but I also COULD NOT have. There is literally no way to tell the difference, and when you throw in multiple scenarios, and multiple instances, along with outliers, trying to claim that the BSN "has influence" over balance changes is just impossible to really prove, likewise, proving that the BSN has NO influence over balance changes is also impossible to prove. But the error I see made time and time again on the BSN(NOT necessarily here) is that it is the fault of "the elitest scumbags" for a personal favorite to get nerfed, or the fault of those "complete scrubs" for something getting buffed. (this happens much less, go figure.). neither is true. It`s ultimately BIOWARES decision, and trying to say that the BSN MADE Bioware do something is simply retarded. what did we do? hold a gun to their head?

[BjornDaDwarf]

Oh, and for the record, I think the BSN is almost exclusively responsible for buffs, not nerfs. I genuinely think they ignore the nerf calls.

[krknight]

TeamLexana wrote...

I don't think it was needed either. The major gripe is the revive, without a patch I don't see that mechanic being tweaked nor removed. Demanding nerfs to the duration, sheild boost, and DR just seems petty. Agreeing to such nerfs seems like a big WTF, esp since in reality such a nerf hurts everyone much more then it helps the game at all since AUI's will guzzle more grenades and will ensure no else will ever have a single grenade to their name again.

but where is your proof?  

nerf just happened today so there is no data supporting your grenade stealing theory.  this whole thread is on the basis that players who called for her nerf had no proof that she needed a nerf because she was new.  

your argument seems logical does it not?  less duration means more trips to the ammo box.  more trips to the ammo box means less grenades for everyone else.  i'm not refuting your outlook, and it is what will happen initially.  once people learn to use her properly, there will be less trips to the ammo box, more grenades for everyone else, more team play.  grenades will not be a scarce commodity forever.

as for the vocal minority, weight is given for experience.  just as you have an educated guess on what will happen to grenades with this new nerf based on experience, others had on her OP status.  many of the players who were saying she was OP was based on over a thousand hours of gameplay.  why shouldn't weight be given to their opinions?  when one of the best all-time passers in the nba said there was something wrong with the new basketball, they listened and did so reasonably.   

[Original Twigman]

FlashAK wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

FlashAK wrote...

I knew you would be upset about the AIU nerf. She's still an awesome character though.

I think BSN plays a small role in balance changes, but BW probably relies on their own internal data collected on the game more than anything else. BW has proven time and time again that they don't exactly know what they're doing when it comes to balance.

tbh, i really don't care.

I am more upset with the outcome of petty heads trolling the boards and having influence on a game to which some aren't even very good at.

So, instead of being upset with the lesser-ones, I prefer to turn that into curiosity as to the process of balance changes.

I mean, when you think about it, how do you collect data on the impact/effectiveness of DR% or shields regen??

Same with the effectiveness of duration on ascension mode... how do you collect data on the usefulness of its duration and power/damage taken ratio?

If players are influencing the thought process, or at least bringing up topics for the devs to discuss at work, why not involve us in the process as well?? I am not saying get us involved in what to do... what I mean is, why not provide some explanation, statistics, and more? Afterall, with the information age, shouldn't we not be having more access to information rather than being left in the dark?

I don't think they take all the petty trolls opinions into consideration. If that were the case, the Harrier would've been nerfed to hell and back long ago.

Agreed, it would be nice if they involved us in some way with the changes. BW obviously doesn't have to ask our consent to change something, but it wouldn't hurt to create a thread stating what they're considering for the upcoming balance changes and open it up to BSN for discussion. 60-80% (maybe more) of the responses will probably be garbage, but there will be sensible ones that they can take into consideration.

I'm sure Cyonan, tyhw, peddro, etc. have better ideas on how to balance the game better than the team they currently have in place.

Although I won't agree with the last statement, I will agree that those guys have a very well-balanced view of the game. especially cynonan who seems to be the more active poster of those three.

I agree, I would like to see that involvement with the community, considering that this is a place designed for us to interact with the devs and get more involved with the game itself.

On top of that, i really wished they released more raw statistical info aside from the infograph

[Grunt_Platform]

I think it's more.. when BSN identifies a problem, and suggests a solution, and BioWare's internal tests confirm it, BSN influences things. The buffs to Vanguards and the Havoc Soldier were fairly narrow, and reflected legitimate issues.

The buff to the Spitfire does not match any player requests, but it might actually be sufficient for a high level Spitfire. The gun was underperforming pre-buff for sure.

The Reegar is still at full power, so I'd say the influence is still fairly limited.

[Original Twigman]

krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

I don't think it was needed either. The major gripe is the revive, without a patch I don't see that mechanic being tweaked nor removed. Demanding nerfs to the duration, sheild boost, and DR just seems petty. Agreeing to such nerfs seems like a big WTF, esp since in reality such a nerf hurts everyone much more then it helps the game at all since AUI's will guzzle more grenades and will ensure no else will ever have a single grenade to their name again.

but where is your proof?  

nerf just happened today so there is no data supporting your grenade stealing theory.  this whole thread is on the basis that players who called for her nerf had no proof that she needed a nerf because she was new.  

your argument seems logical does it not?  less duration means more trips to the ammo box.  more trips to the ammo box means less grenades for everyone else.  i'm not refuting your outlook, and it is what will happen initially.  once people learn to use her properly, there will be less trips to the ammo box, more grenades for everyone else, more team play.  grenades will not be a scarce commodity forever.

as for the vocal minority, weight is given for experience.  just as you have an educated guess on what will happen to grenades with this new nerf based on experience, others had on her OP status.  many of the players who were saying she was OP was based on over a thousand hours of gameplay.  why shouldn't weight be given to their opinions?  when one of the best all-time passers in the nba said there was something wrong with the new basketball, they listened and did so reasonably.   

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with ove ra thousand hours of gameplay.

[RoundedPlanet88]

Original Stikman wrote...

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with over a thousand hours of gameplay.

FTFY
As regards to release of more statistical data, I strongly suspect that Bioware has multiple reasons for not releasing that. In part I suspect due to some form of contractual/legal obligation with EA.

[RavenousBear]

A minor role in the changes. The devs use their own data to determine if a certain power, weapon, etc. needs to be modified for the most part. There are a few examples when the devs made a change to a certain item after being requested by BSN members (ex lowering the weight of the Falcon so it would be a better fit for Engineers).

I see no role in BSN for the nerfs of several powerful weapons and kits since the game was released. The high usage of Infiltrators and the Krysae Sniper Rifle in matches influenced the devs to make the changes, not to the bickering on several threads on BSN. There are quite a few changes I found puzzling but tough luck.

[TeamLexana]

krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

I don't think it was needed either. The major gripe is the revive, without a patch I don't see that mechanic being tweaked nor removed. Demanding nerfs to the duration, sheild boost, and DR just seems petty. Agreeing to such nerfs seems like a big WTF, esp since in reality such a nerf hurts everyone much more then it helps the game at all since AUI's will guzzle more grenades and will ensure no else will ever have a single grenade to their name again.

but where is your proof?  

nerf just happened today so there is no data supporting your grenade stealing theory.  this whole thread is on the basis that players who called for her nerf had no proof that she needed a nerf because she was new.  

your argument seems logical does it not?  less duration means more trips to the ammo box.  more trips to the ammo box means less grenades for everyone else.  i'm not refuting your outlook, and it is what will happen initially.  once people learn to use her properly, there will be less trips to the ammo box, more grenades for everyone else, more team play.  grenades will not be a scarce commodity forever.

as for the vocal minority, weight is given for experience.  just as you have an educated guess on what will happen to grenades with this new nerf based on experience, others had on her OP status.  many of the players who were saying she was OP was based on over a thousand hours of gameplay.  why shouldn't weight be given to their opinions?  when one of the best all-time passers in the nba said there was something wrong with the new basketball, they listened and did so reasonably.   

By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours.

[krknight]

Original Stikman wrote...

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with ove ra thousand hours of gameplay. 

so then all players who have over a thousand hours of gameplay should be disregarded?  

[Original Twigman]

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with ove ra thousand hours of gameplay. 

so then all players who have over a thousand hours of gameplay should be disregarded?  

You are jumping to a far conclusion i didn't make.

experience should not equal a more "powerful" voice.

[Devoidparanoia]

Haloburner wrote...

The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

This

[krknight]

TeamLexana wrote...
By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours.

i don't need to check it.  i understood where you were coming from.  

this thread is about how much consideration does bioware give to bsn comments.  my standpoint is that players who have logged in many hours into the game should be respected when concerns arise.  

your viewpoint made sense and i agreed to an extent.  where i disagreed was the length of time grenades will be scarce.  once people learn to use her properly, you'll see less aiu's with grenade gears and less aiu's running to the ammo boxes.  this is not the point though.

if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 

Modifié par krknight, 12 mars 2013 - 11:39 .

[krknight]

Original Stikman wrote...

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with ove ra thousand hours of gameplay. 

so then all players who have over a thousand hours of gameplay should be disregarded?  

You are jumping to a far conclusion i didn't make.

experience should not equal a more "powerful" voice.

it should when there is enough of them.  five players with experience should have a stronger voice than five players without.  most of the players who called for her to be nerfed did so from experience.

[Original Twigman]

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Nah, there are plenty of dopey posters with ove ra thousand hours of gameplay. 

so then all players who have over a thousand hours of gameplay should be disregarded?  

You are jumping to a far conclusion i didn't make.

experience should not equal a more "powerful" voice.

it should when there is enough of them.  five players with experience should have a stronger voice than five players without.  most of the players who called for her to be nerfed did so from experience.

And plenty said "no" with it as well. Myself included. I don't see the point.... besides, its off-topic from the thread

[krknight]

Original Stikman wrote...
And plenty said "no" with it as well. Myself included. I don't see the point.... besides, its off-topic from the thread

so going over to redjohn's thread and calling him "redtroll" was sticking to the matter.  

this thread was only started because the aiu got nerfed and you're trying to figure out why.  she got nerfed because enough people who understood her mechanics agreed she was overpowered.  

[Original Twigman]

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
And plenty said "no" with it as well. Myself included. I don't see the point.... besides, its off-topic from the thread

so going over to redjohn's thread and calling him "redtroll" was sticking to the matter.  

this thread was only started because the aiu got nerfed and you're trying to figure out why.  she got nerfed because enough people who understood her mechanics agreed she was overpowered.  

it started as a questioning as to how the process of balance changes is influenced by BSN. Its pretty clear in the OP

Off topic - I would hardly call those pedantic anecdotal elaborations as "understanding" but moreso hyperbole

Modifié par Original Stikman, 12 mars 2013 - 11:44 .