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How much of a role do BSNers play in Balance Changes?


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#101
krknight

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Original Stikman wrote...

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
And plenty said "no" with it as well. Myself included. I don't see the point.... besides, its off-topic from the thread


so going over to redjohn's thread and calling him "redtroll" was sticking to the matter.  

this thread was only started because the aiu got nerfed and you're trying to figure out why.  she got nerfed because enough people who understood her mechanics agreed she was overpowered.  



it started as a questioning as to how the process of balance changes is influenced by BSN. Its pretty clear in the OP

Off topic - I would hardly call those pedantic anecdotal elaborations as "understanding" but moreso hyperbole


it's actually pretty clear you're upset with her nerf and your comments in redjohn's thread is plenty proof.  

and i would hardly call the devs' decisions on how and why to nerf her "hyperbole."  when i was talking about the people who understood her mechanics, i also meant the game developers.  they have the final say in who AND how a kit is balanced, not any random gamer here on the forums.    

#102
Original Twigman

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krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

krknight wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...
And plenty said "no" with it as well. Myself included. I don't see the point.... besides, its off-topic from the thread


so going over to redjohn's thread and calling him "redtroll" was sticking to the matter.  

this thread was only started because the aiu got nerfed and you're trying to figure out why.  she got nerfed because enough people who understood her mechanics agreed she was overpowered.  



it started as a questioning as to how the process of balance changes is influenced by BSN. Its pretty clear in the OP

Off topic - I would hardly call those pedantic anecdotal elaborations as "understanding" but moreso hyperbole


it's actually pretty clear you're upset with her nerf and your comments in redjohn's thread is plenty proof.  

and i would hardly call the devs' decisions on how and why to nerf her "hyperbole."  when i was talking about the people who understood her mechanics, i also meant the game developers.  they have the final say in who AND how a kit is balanced, not any random gamer here on the forums.    


lol, wtv.

#103
TeamLexana

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krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...
By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours. Posted Image


i don't need to check it.  i understood where you were coming from.  

this thread is about how much consideration does bioware give to bsn comments.  my standpoint is that players who have logged in many hours into the game should be respected when concerns arise.  

your viewpoint made sense and i agreed to an extent.  where i disagreed was the length of time grenades will be scarce.  once people learn to use her properly, you'll see less aiu's with grenade gears and less aiu's running to the ammo boxes.  this is not the point though.

if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 


Wasn't that your point though? Peeps with over 1k hours said she was OP so it must be true.

Which leads me back to my original post in this thread, something in the hands of someone with 1k hours under their belt can make a kit look or seem or OP when it's not necassarily the kit because less skilled players can't pull it off. Nerfs shouldn't be balanced around me nor those above my skill level. And that's not just AUI based, the same can be said about any kit.

Nobody cries about the demolisher either because she simply doesn't get used all that often anymore. I rarely see randoms rocking it all, nor do I use her. It's not that anyone got "better" with the smaller grenade/ammo drop as much as they moved on to different kits.

#104
Original Twigman

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TeamLexana wrote...

krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...
By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours. Posted Image


i don't need to check it.  i understood where you were coming from.  

this thread is about how much consideration does bioware give to bsn comments.  my standpoint is that players who have logged in many hours into the game should be respected when concerns arise.  

your viewpoint made sense and i agreed to an extent.  where i disagreed was the length of time grenades will be scarce.  once people learn to use her properly, you'll see less aiu's with grenade gears and less aiu's running to the ammo boxes.  this is not the point though.

if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 


Wasn't that your point though? Peeps with over 1k hours said she was OP so it must be true.

Which leads me back to my original post in this thread, something in the hands of someone with 1k hours under their belt can make a kit look or seem or OP when it's not necassarily the kit because less skilled players can't pull it off. Nerfs shouldn't be balanced around me nor those above my skill level. And that's not just AUI based, the same can be said about any kit.

Nobody cries about the demolisher either because she simply doesn't get used all that often anymore. I rarely see randoms rocking it all, nor do I use her. It's not that anyone got "better" with the smaller grenade/ammo drop as much as they moved on to different kits.


im a scrub

<600hrs

#105
TeamLexana

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Original Stikman wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...
By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours. Posted Image


i don't need to check it.  i understood where you were coming from.  

this thread is about how much consideration does bioware give to bsn comments.  my standpoint is that players who have logged in many hours into the game should be respected when concerns arise.  

your viewpoint made sense and i agreed to an extent.  where i disagreed was the length of time grenades will be scarce.  once people learn to use her properly, you'll see less aiu's with grenade gears and less aiu's running to the ammo boxes.  this is not the point though.

if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 


Wasn't that your point though? Peeps with over 1k hours said she was OP so it must be true.

Which leads me back to my original post in this thread, something in the hands of someone with 1k hours under their belt can make a kit look or seem or OP when it's not necassarily the kit because less skilled players can't pull it off. Nerfs shouldn't be balanced around me nor those above my skill level. And that's not just AUI based, the same can be said about any kit.

Nobody cries about the demolisher either because she simply doesn't get used all that often anymore. I rarely see randoms rocking it all, nor do I use her. It's not that anyone got "better" with the smaller grenade/ammo drop as much as they moved on to different kits.


im a scrub

<600hrs


Pffft. No wonder you're not on my freinds list. Posted Image

#106
Necrotron

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The balance changes team I'm sure reads feedback. To not do so would be foolish.

But I'm also fairly certain they make changes based upon their own judgement, which certainly good suggestions do get taken into account into.

In my opinion, nearly all of the balance changes this week were for things that actually made those classes/weapons better for their respective roles, and the game better as a whole. Did vocal BSNers cause it? Yes and no. I'm sure the highly debated issues do get looked it, but I doubt the balance team just does whatever the hottest threads on the BSN suggest.

#107
Guest__only1biggs__*

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Original Stikman wrote...

I dunno, like Arcitcan said, there have been some instances where people bring something up and thigns get done.


read again what i said. people who think they have a bearing on what gets changed do not understand coincidence.

#108
etm125

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Every time somebody does a poll the nerf or pro-balance side is significantly less -- So the BSN is a tiny minority of the playerbase and the "nerfers" are an even smaller portion of that. I don't think they/we hold much sway over the decisions. The vast majority of people just want buffs buffs buffs and more buffs. If BW listened to the majority, platinum would play like bronze.

I like someone's chicken and egg thinking earlier in the thread-- the nerfing/buffing cries are just peoples' observations of the game, a result, not the cause.

We also have no data for usage of the AIU as the last infographic did not include the Reckoning kits. Who knows? Maybe she was really overused.

Re: hours played
If my job was balancing a game I would take a person who has spent significant time playing a game's opinion more seriously than someone who just picked it up-- yes. I'm not offering a value on any person but I am saying someone who has more knowledge on a subject's opinion should probably carry a bit more weight. I wouldn't jump into CoD and start yammering on about what I think and demand to be taken seriously because I had paid my $20. I realize this can be construed as elitist but it seems to make sense to me.

#109
Arctican

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_only1biggs_ wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

I dunno, like Arcitcan said, there have been some instances where people bring something up and thigns get done.


read again what i said. people who think they have a bearing on what gets changed do not understand coincidence.


Coincidence would be BjornDaDwarf bringing up the case to buff Barrier and it gets buffed on the same day. On the other hand, the buff involving Annihilation Field rank 6 was acknowledged by a Bioware staff (Chris Sanche I believe) in a public thread. After a little back and forth discussion, he said he would bring it up with the rest of the balance team to see if anything could be done. If that argument wasn't brough to light, Annihilation Field would have never recieved that buff that following balance change.

But I do agree that most balance changes were not done because BSN brought it up, but because Bioware themselves did their own testing and made a change that happened to be what in line with what some BSNers thought. I believe the AIU is such a case.

Modifié par Arctican, 13 mars 2013 - 01:47 .


#110
Original Twigman

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TeamLexana wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

krknight wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...
By that logc, doesn't that make my argument even more valid? Check my manifest, over 1k hours. Posted Image


i don't need to check it.  i understood where you were coming from.  

this thread is about how much consideration does bioware give to bsn comments.  my standpoint is that players who have logged in many hours into the game should be respected when concerns arise.  

your viewpoint made sense and i agreed to an extent.  where i disagreed was the length of time grenades will be scarce.  once people learn to use her properly, you'll see less aiu's with grenade gears and less aiu's running to the ammo boxes.  this is not the point though.

if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 


Wasn't that your point though? Peeps with over 1k hours said she was OP so it must be true.

Which leads me back to my original post in this thread, something in the hands of someone with 1k hours under their belt can make a kit look or seem or OP when it's not necassarily the kit because less skilled players can't pull it off. Nerfs shouldn't be balanced around me nor those above my skill level. And that's not just AUI based, the same can be said about any kit.

Nobody cries about the demolisher either because she simply doesn't get used all that often anymore. I rarely see randoms rocking it all, nor do I use her. It's not that anyone got "better" with the smaller grenade/ammo drop as much as they moved on to different kits.


im a scrub

<600hrs


Pffft. No wonder you're not on my freinds list. Posted Image


u nver send invite...

i don't send invites :devil:

mostly cuz im lazy and play 1-2x a week

#111
Guest__only1biggs__*

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Arctican wrote...

After a little back and forth discussion, he said he would bring it up with the rest of the balance team to see if anything could be done.


read again what i wrote. bioware making their gamers feel involved is good business.

now, what i have pointed out is not a fact, i'm basing my assertions on probability and the way bioware have operated their multiplayer format, but still. to think that bsn threads are that important to changing the game is self involved and moronic

#112
Commander Castillo

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The reegar carbine would shoot chocolate at enemies, assault rifles wouldn't be as bad as they are currently, all krogans would regenerate health, all turians could roll. Those are some of the stuff that would be in game if the devs actually listened to the community.

#113
Original Twigman

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Commander Castillo wrote...

The reegar carbine would shoot chocolate at enemies, assault rifles wouldn't be as bad as they are currently, all krogans would regenerate health, all turians could roll. Those are some of the stuff that would be in game if the devs actually listened to the community.


Meh, bioware can pick and choose. They do listen to a lot of things if they have a decent point (i.e. collector ascension mode, batarian vangaurd buff, spitfire, bpp)

#114
Bryan Johnson

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Arctican wrote...


Coincidence would be BjornDaDwarf bringing up the case to buff Barrier and it gets buffed on the same day. On the other hand, the buff involving Annihilation Field rank 6 was acknowledged by a Bioware staff (Chris Sanche I believe) in a public thread. After a little back and forth discussion, he said he would bring it up with the rest of the balance team to see if anything could be done. If that argument wasn't brough to light, Annihilation Field would have never recieved that buff that following balance change.

But I do agree that most balance changes were not done because BSN brought it up, but because Bioware themselves did their own testing and made a change that happened to be what in line with what some BSNers thought. I believe the AIU is such a case.


Just going to hop in here, balance changes were never put in the same day. Generally the balance changes need to be in place thursday. I was the one who made the suggestion about buf****g barrier.

#115
USIncorp0

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Just like to point out that Dunvi sent Eric a very well thought out PM regarding a potential buff to Havoc Strike, which appeared in the balance changes.
However she did do it on a personal level, and because she felt that the Havoc is extremely underused.

So yes, the community can have some impact on the balance changes. But I think my example is a bit of an exception.

#116
TheKillerAngel

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Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

#117
Happy Shepard

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BioWare are excellent trolls. Never forget that. They might only hint at BSN being a substantial factor in some balance changes just to make us feel involved. Think about it. One week, they buff Phase Disruptor or nerf the Vindicator and the next week they'll finally do exactly what we were asking for months. These coincidences are too random to be proof of any involvement.

However you can't proove the opposite either. Remember how i said BioWare are excellent trolls? Yeah, always remember that.

But if we really use every change that was requested and then done as an argument, we'd have to use every change that wasn't as a counter argument. As long as there is no dev comment stating how much influence BSN actually has, we can only speculate.

You raised an interesting question, OP. I just hope this isn't a sneaky way to attack nerfers. That would be sad because game balance discussions without bias are actually fun.

#118
N7NJA982

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

LOL

#119
Arctican

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N7NJA982 wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

LOL


I definitely read that in a very wrong way.:whistle:

#120
N7NJA982

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Arctican wrote...

N7NJA982 wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

LOL


I definitely read that in a very wrong way.:whistle:

They did WHAT to barrier?!?

#121
Destructo-Bot

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N7NJA982 wrote...

Arctican wrote...

N7NJA982 wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

LOL


I definitely read that in a very wrong way.:whistle:

They did WHAT to barrier?!?


Preach it brother Bryan! :o

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 13 mars 2013 - 02:49 .


#122
o Gummy o

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...
buf****g barrier.


epic

I am glad this caught the eyes of others XD

#123
krknight

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TeamLexana wrote...

krknight wrote...


if the developers were to take someone's opinion into account, do you feel that your opinion (with over a 1000 hours logged) should be given more credence than 5 people who just bought the game yesterday? 

edit:  remember all the hubub over the demolisher and HER grenades?  people got better with their kits and the bsn arguing over whose pylon it was, ceased.

 


Wasn't that your point though? Peeps with over 1k hours said she was OP so it must be true.

Which leads me back to my original post in this thread, something in the hands of someone with 1k hours under their belt can make a kit look or seem or OP when it's not necassarily the kit because less skilled players can't pull it off. Nerfs shouldn't be balanced around me nor those above my skill level. And that's not just AUI based, the same can be said about any kit.

Nobody cries about the demolisher either because she simply doesn't get used all that often anymore. I rarely see randoms rocking it all, nor do I use her. It's not that anyone got "better" with the smaller grenade/ammo drop as much as they moved on to different kits.


not entirely, but when that many players who have logged in that many hours says something, then what they're saying should be taken into consideration.  

bioware listened and looked at it.  they only went through with the nerf because they themselves thought the same.  there are plenty of nerfs continually on the table that bioware has decided against or they would have already been implemented.  

kits/weapons aren't nerfed because they're good in the hands of a good player.  if that were the case, then characters like the fury would have already been hit.  guns like the claymore, black widow, and the hurricane would also be nothing like they are now. 

redjohn is a great example among many of the experienced players who felt she was OP.  he's logged in many hours, made helpful videos and has been a positive member on the forum early on in the life of multiplayer.  he obviously knows the game well and there is video proof of his accomplishments.  i came onto the forums to start a post on nerfing her, but he already started a thread.  i believe it's the only time he ever felt that a nerf was in order.  why shouldn't a player like this be given a considerable amount of weight in what they have to say?

you can't have it both ways.  there were many changes today and i believe only one kit got nerfed.  unless you feel that buffs shouldn't have any foundation in what experienced players feel as well, then you can't say that nerfs shouldn't have some sway from experienced players.  

the game is successful because bioware chooses to use its players as beta-testers and for ideas.  new characters, powers, weapons, and even a faction were all added because of this forum.  if you have something against nerfs conceptually coming from players who have logged on as many hours as they have in this game, then you have something against every other idea that has been implemented from this forum thus far.

as for the demolisher, the ones i've come across lately knew what they were doing and weren't "humping" their pylons or ammo boxes.  people who stuck to her got better.  

aiu is a new character therefore we'll all be seeing plenty of her at first.  but once the "newness" wears off, who can say she won't drop off in popularity as well.  even if people do continually play the aiu, just like any other character, those people will get better with her and again, less runs to the ammo boxes, more grenades for everyone else.
 

#124
LeandroBraz

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BSN can point out something that maybe the devs wasn't seeing, but at the end of the day, they will decide if it should be done. An example is the Reegar, it probably is the item with more threads asking for nerf on the BSN, so far the nerf didn't happened (I think only a weight increase, months ago). If BSNers has all this power over Balance changes, the reegar would be nerfed by now...

#125
Original Twigman

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Happy Shepard wrote...

BioWare are excellent trolls. Never forget that. They might only hint at BSN being a substantial factor in some balance changes just to make us feel involved. Think about it. One week, they buff Phase Disruptor or nerf the Vindicator and the next week they'll finally do exactly what we were asking for months. These coincidences are too random to be proof of any involvement.

However you can't proove the opposite either. Remember how i said BioWare are excellent trolls? Yeah, always remember that.

But if we really use every change that was requested and then done as an argument, we'd have to use every change that wasn't as a counter argument. As long as there is no dev comment stating how much influence BSN actually has, we can only speculate.

You raised an interesting question, OP. I just hope this isn't a sneaky way to attack nerfers. That would be sad because game balance discussions without bias are actually fun.


No, no chicanery here. These were legit questions that I thought were well worth considering for those who enjoy thinking about these things. I don't know the answers, but I thought, as a collective, we could discuss the potential problems and potential utility of us actually being a factor in shaping a game.

There was also the thread on "this dlc was made for us" which highlighted how they gave us a health regen krogan, a shotty infiltrator, and they have also given us volus/turians that can dodge