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[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

When tali and legion gave in after shepard yelled at them it devalued those characters for me. Tali just goes "well maybe if i give you a little public domain data i wont feel bad" and legion goes "youve both sidelined the reason for my scanning of the flotilla and apparently outsmarted me so i accept anything because im a dumb robot" what was the point of legion trying to gain valuable information on the flotilla if two people yelling at him is enough to make him accept invaluable information? It just calls talis loyalty to her people into question and makes legion seem like an idiot who doesnt know what he's doing. Thats why it didnt sit well with me.

i think you misinterpret the gesture of tali.

by freely giving legion data (even if it is non classified), she shows trust and the will to back down.

legion accepts the data to show, that there is no ill will left.


this is a classic compromise and a foundation for future trust. thats what diplomatic people do - they broker compromises.

It also devalues both characters and makes legions entire plight seem trivial if even HE cant be bothered to support his own people.  But i guess if talis nice then saving the geth doesnt matter

[Nykara]

I think it really came down to having too many choices throughout the game - the more choices the more things would have become difficult to track down. That would have taken time ( and disc space for all of the variations ). Don't get me wrong I totally loved having control of Shep throughout this game as well as all the choices but at the end of the day I think it came down to far too many options.

[EnvyTB075]

Then BioWare shouldn't have made a RPG with player influence from the start, and should have made ME1 the way they made ME3, a railroded Gears clone.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 13 mars 2013 - 01:43 .

[mopotter]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

When tali and legion gave in after shepard yelled at them it devalued those characters for me. Tali just goes "well maybe if i give you a little public domain data i wont feel bad" and legion goes "youve both sidelined the reason for my scanning of the flotilla and apparently outsmarted me so i accept anything because im a dumb robot" what was the point of legion trying to gain valuable information on the flotilla if two people yelling at him is enough to make him accept invaluable information? It just calls talis loyalty to her people into question and makes legion seem like an idiot who doesnt know what he's doing. Thats why it didnt sit well with me.

But i guess as long as shepard looks like a coolguy then it doesnt matter how retarded everyone else has to be to make it work.


"hey fleet admirals i know that you have alot of stake in this trial and its hella complicated but if you can just give up because i said so thatd be great."  "well you did ask nicely so okay"  "no he didnt he yelled at us and devalued our entire governmental system"  "yeah but he did it with a super high renegade score so we have to do what he says its the rules."  ((((

And for me, getting Tali and Legion to co-operate was a highlight in the game because I didn't do it often.  I don't often play paragon or renegade.  I play a close to balanced polite Shepard who tries to see both sides, but that means Shepard can't talk Tali/Legion or Jack/Miranda into working together.  So for me it was just another option.  I like options.  

For the trial, I usually picked the choice to get the crowd behind her.  I did the other two but in this case I don't really care for the "all powerful" Shepard personality.   I use Shepard's power of adoration carefully.  

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

NCommand wrote...

I think it's important to be clear that this shouldn't rule out "good" outcomes, it's just important that developers remember that even as a hero the player has to be smacked in the head and reminded here an there that sometimes choices must be made, and sometimes no choice can make everyone happy

Yeah as I said, perfect outcome would still be achievable, but it would give the average player more variance in their playthrough.  the gamer obsessed with the perfect playthrough could read up and learn what choices have the best outcome, get lucky, or play it multiple times.  The average player would end up with a crazier, more memorable suicide mission and, as a result, an ME3 more unique to each player, rather than everyone coming in with more or less the same choices.

your me2-scenario in example, would only enable 2 average endings.

either you get a good normandy, everybody survives but it does not matter, because they dont like you (btw - jack would love a renegade shepard).
or, you cant upgrade the normandy, half the crew dies but the ones who survive are loyal ...

paragon and renegade never changed the outcomes (except the control speech) - they only were different tastes on how to achieve the outcome. a renegade character can destroy the collector base and a paragon can keep it.

in your version, a paragon player could be forced to go renegade, because he wants jack to survive. forcing a player ooc in a rpg is bad.

Thats not really what i meant i was just providing an example. Divorcing it from paragon and renegade points it would be more like DA:O's approval system, where you still make big decisions but people will get upset with you, and that game is celebrated as one of bioware's best.


Besides, did you REALLY not scratch your head when upgrading the cannons was as simple as asking garrus to pull better cannons out of his pocket? There was nothing to how they handled the ship upgrades in two it was almost a non element. The rest of it was just making supporting characters really dumb if shepard yelled at them and not having anything interesting happen with your loyalty system.
the problem is, that even a player with the most crazy suicide mission, ends up with the same end-choices everyone else has.

no i did not. garrus is one of shepards closest friends (if you did recruit him in me1) and we just got his *backside* saved on omega. why shouldnt he use his connections to upgrade the guns? garrus serves on this ship and it is in his own interest to give the normandy an edge.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Sorry for the doublepost but im on my phone and it craps up when i try to edit a post. By "tali being nice" i meant "acting nice" all she did was give him information he could find on the extra net. Thats basically tricking him to calm him down. It makes legion seem stupid and makes tali and shepard out to be manipulative

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

When tali and legion gave in after shepard yelled at them it devalued those characters for me. Tali just goes "well maybe if i give you a little public domain data i wont feel bad" and legion goes "youve both sidelined the reason for my scanning of the flotilla and apparently outsmarted me so i accept anything because im a dumb robot" what was the point of legion trying to gain valuable information on the flotilla if two people yelling at him is enough to make him accept invaluable information? It just calls talis loyalty to her people into question and makes legion seem like an idiot who doesnt know what he's doing. Thats why it didnt sit well with me.

i think you misinterpret the gesture of tali.

by freely giving legion data (even if it is non classified), she shows trust and the will to back down.

legion accepts the data to show, that there is no ill will left.


this is a classic compromise and a foundation for future trust. thats what diplomatic people do - they broker compromises.

It also devalues both characters and makes legions entire plight seem trivial if even HE cant be bothered to support his own people.  But i guess if talis nice then saving the geth doesnt matter

how does it devalue them?

making them cooperate, is more a sign of mature behaviour. the stakes are too high and everybody has to cut corners. after shepards intervention, legion understood, that it is not right to deceive a comrade by scanning the omno tool and tali understands, that the geth have legitimate fears.

bringing persons to cooperate shows, that the persons can learn and grow.

[mopotter]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Then BioWare shouldn't have made a RPG with player influence from the start, and should have made ME1 the way they made ME3, a railroded Gears clone.

Agree, and I sort of wish they had done this.  i wouldn't have bothered playing it and I wouldn't have cared about the characters, story or the series.  As it is, I did care and was super disappointed. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

 
no i did not. garrus is one of shepards closest friends (if you did recruit him in me1) and we just got his *backside* saved on omega. why shouldnt he use his connections to upgrade the guns? garrus serves on this ship and it is in his own interest to give the normandy an edge.

But thats the problem, its such a fake choice that "why would you ever not just get all the upgrades"  most of it was such rushed dialogue that sometimes disnt even come with THAT level of explanation.  "i may be able to increase our fuel cells"  "....how?"  "......."  

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Sorry for the doublepost but im on my phone and it craps up when i try to edit a post. By "tali being nice" i meant "acting nice" all she did was give him information he could find on the extra net. Thats basically tricking him to calm him down. It makes legion seem stupid and makes tali and shepard out to be manipulative

its a gesture of good will ... that counts more than information.

building bridges is more important than burning villages. tali knows exactly, that a war between the geth and the quariens will be bloody. it is in her won interest to find a peaceful solution - at least after a successful triel and the conversations with the admirals and kal reagar.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 13 mars 2013 - 01:56 .

[mopotter]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

When tali and legion gave in after shepard yelled at them it devalued those characters for me. Tali just goes "well maybe if i give you a little public domain data i wont feel bad" and legion goes "youve both sidelined the reason for my scanning of the flotilla and apparently outsmarted me so i accept anything because im a dumb robot" what was the point of legion trying to gain valuable information on the flotilla if two people yelling at him is enough to make him accept invaluable information? It just calls talis loyalty to her people into question and makes legion seem like an idiot who doesnt know what he's doing. Thats why it didnt sit well with me.

i think you misinterpret the gesture of tali.

by freely giving legion data (even if it is non classified), she shows trust and the will to back down.

legion accepts the data to show, that there is no ill will left.


this is a classic compromise and a foundation for future trust. thats what diplomatic people do - they broker compromises.

It also devalues both characters and makes legions entire plight seem trivial if even HE cant be bothered to support his own people.  But i guess if talis nice then saving the geth doesnt matter

how does it devalue them?

making them cooperate, is more a sign of mature behaviour. the stakes are too high and everybody has to cut corners. after shepards intervention, legion understood, that it is not right to deceive a comrade by scanning the omno tool and tali understands, that the geth have legitimate fears.

bringing persons to cooperate shows, that the persons can learn and grow.

good post.  I agree, and you said it much better than I could have.  

[deatharmonic]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

When tali and legion gave in after shepard yelled at them it devalued those characters for me. Tali just goes "well maybe if i give you a little public domain data i wont feel bad" and legion goes "youve both sidelined the reason for my scanning of the flotilla and apparently outsmarted me so i accept anything because im a dumb robot" what was the point of legion trying to gain valuable information on the flotilla if two people yelling at him is enough to make him accept invaluable information? It just calls talis loyalty to her people into question and makes legion seem like an idiot who doesnt know what he's doing. Thats why it didnt sit well with me.

i think you misinterpret the gesture of tali.

by freely giving legion data (even if it is non classified), she shows trust and the will to back down.

legion accepts the data to show, that there is no ill will left.


this is a classic compromise and a foundation for future trust. thats what diplomatic people do - they broker compromises.

It also devalues both characters and makes legions entire plight seem trivial if even HE cant be bothered to support his own people.  But i guess if talis nice then saving the geth doesnt matter

I'd hate to be the commander of a ship and not be able to take charge of your own crew when they start bickering. Yes people are going to have differences (tali v legion/jack v miri) but they should understand 1) what you say goes and 2) to put their squabbles aside whether they like each other or not. So i'm glad you can remind them both of that in those scenario's.

[EnvyTB075]

mopotter wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Then BioWare shouldn't have made a RPG with player influence from the start, and should have made ME1 the way they made ME3, a railroded Gears clone.

Agree, and I sort of wish they had done this.  i wouldn't have bothered playing it and I wouldn't have cared about the characters, story or the series.  As it is, I did care and was super disappointed. 

By the simple fact that ME1 exists, BioWare had a duty to cater to all the possible Shepards that could exist. Their failure to do so is not the players fault.

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

 
no i did not. garrus is one of shepards closest friends (if you did recruit him in me1) and we just got his *backside* saved on omega. why shouldnt he use his connections to upgrade the guns? garrus serves on this ship and it is in his own interest to give the normandy an edge.

But thats the problem, its such a fake choice that "why would you ever not just get all the upgrades"  most of it was such rushed dialogue that sometimes disnt even come with THAT level of explanation.  "i may be able to increase our fuel cells"  "....how?"  "......."  

well .. the research terminal  gives you the explanation how it works.


it is still shepards decision to install the upgrades. maybe shepard does not have the recources to do the upgrades or wants to get the job done as fast as possible or does not deem the upgrades to be neccesary. thats part of the roleplaying aspect of mass effect.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

how does it devalue them?

making them cooperate, is more a sign of mature behaviour. the stakes are too high and everybody has to cut corners. after shepards intervention, legion understood, that it is not right to deceive a comrade by scanning the omno tool and tali understands, that the geth have legitimate fears.

bringing persons to cooperate shows, that the persons can learn and grow.

Because it trivializes the entire reason legion was scanning the flotilla in the first place.  It casts the characters as immature just to achieve a positive outcome for the player, despite both characters having legitimate problems with the other's actions that shepard's 'comprimise' DOES NOT SOLVE.  Shepard comes off as a selfish **** in this scene to boot.

What it says is that legions fear of the quarians attack doesnt matter and he should ignore the fact that he witnessed their leaders preparig for war.  This is half-assed, sloppy, and just feels like something they threw in to make focus testers happy for how lamely written it is compared to the actual choice scenes, which have gravitas and care to the writing that dont BREAK CHARACTER.

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

how does it devalue them?

making them cooperate, is more a sign of mature behaviour. the stakes are too high and everybody has to cut corners. after shepards intervention, legion understood, that it is not right to deceive a comrade by scanning the omno tool and tali understands, that the geth have legitimate fears.

bringing persons to cooperate shows, that the persons can learn and grow.

Because it trivializes the entire reason legion was scanning the flotilla in the first place.  It casts the characters as immature just to achieve a positive outcome for the player, despite both characters having legitimate problems with the other's actions that shepard's 'comprimise' DOES NOT SOLVE.  Shepard comes off as a selfish **** in this scene to boot.

What it says is that legions fear of the quarians attack doesnt matter and he should ignore the fact that he witnessed their leaders preparig for war.  This is half-assed, sloppy, and just feels like something they threw in to make focus testers happy for how lamely written it is compared to the actual choice scenes, which have gravitas and care to the writing that dont BREAK CHARACTER.

well scanning the omni tool in the frst place is not very mature. this could end in the airlock.


imo, its a question of perspective ... we have a different one.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Dr_Extrem wrote...


well .. the research terminal  gives you the explanation how it works.


it is still shepards decision to install the upgrades. maybe shepard does not have the recources to do the upgrades or wants to get the job done as fast as possible or does not deem the upgrades to be neccesary. thats part of the roleplaying aspect of mass effect.

It doesnt explain why or how SAMARA knows about starship engineering.

Its not a decision and its not roleplaying when youre just trying to "get the best outcome"  

its why most people didnt even read choices half the time in two and why it was deemed acceptable to cut the dialogue tree in 3, because no one USED it in 2.  :/

[goose2989]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Sorry for the doublepost but im on my phone and it craps up when i try to edit a post. By "tali being nice" i meant "acting nice" all she did was give him information he could find on the extra net. Thats basically tricking him to calm him down. It makes legion seem stupid and makes tali and shepard out to be manipulative

And Legion could just send the information he stole later. He never said he deleted it 

[David7204]

The dialogue tree was cut because they have so many animators who can do so much work in so many hours, and that's really the end of it.

I'm 20, and I know about a good deal of things I have zero formal training in. Samara is 800.

[EnvyTB075]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

It doesnt explain why or how SAMARA knows about starship engineering.

Theses things called connections. Shes a Justicar, i'm sure she doesn't know how to install them, but thats what Ken and Gabby are for.

[Bill Casey]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Basically, you want to change the entire trilogy to suit the ending rather than the other way around?

No, I want to reinforce the founding principles of the first game in the second game.  The LINE from the me1 comercial was "Many choices await you, none of them easy"  as shepard turns down one distress call for another.  that line stuck out in my head so strongly and ME1 didnt dissapoint me.

ME1 was nothing like that, though...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 mars 2013 - 02:15 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Dr_Extrem wrote...]

well scanning the omni tool in the frst place is not very mature. this could end in the airlock.


imo, its a question of perspective ... we have a different one.

Yes, my perspective is looking at the characters motivation and you cant see past surface level actions.  The characters arent real to you, you just like it that shepard gets his way, despite how  out of character everyone arround him has to be to make this happen.

It disaoles the legitimacy of the narrative and turns it into mindless shlock.  Telling them to cool it ahould have had consiquence, because the problem was still there you were just pulling a rug over it.  "be nice, children, or im going to get my belt"  

[David7204]

No, continually having negative consequences result from 'good' choices is mindless shock.

[o Ventus]

Wait a minute here.

My ME1 isn't riddled with "difficult" decisions. In fact, the majority of "difficult" decisions can be bypassed in some form in my games.

How does ME1 strike a perfect balance between choice contrivance and player freedom?

[Dr_Extrem]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...]

well scanning the omni tool in the frst place is not very mature. this could end in the airlock.


imo, its a question of perspective ... we have a different one.

Yes, my perspective is looking at the characters motivation and you cant see past surface level actions.  The characters arent real to you, you just like it that shepard gets his way, despite how  out of character everyone arround him has to be to make this happen.

It disaoles the legitimacy of the narrative and turns it into mindless shlock.  Telling them to cool it ahould have had consiquence, because the problem was still there you were just pulling a rug over it.  "be nice, children, or im going to get my belt"  

ok .. this exchange is over .. the moment you try to insult my intelligence, i am out.

the motivation of the characters is dumb in the first place. legion scans talis omni tool - he has to know, that she will notice.

you say i cant see past surface actions - you cant see the moral of the story and its educative notion.