292 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

[Xilizhra]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

Because the trial is a political cluster**** that none of the admirals are coming into with clean hands, and they've basically been publicly shamed. The "rally the crowd" option does the same thing if you have the right people. Also, only one of them would seem to really want to find Tali guilty to begin with. Since Tali is a valuable asset to the fleet in any case, they all decide that the case isn't worth potentially damaging their own careers pursuing further and decide to let her off.

[someguy1231]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

Yeah, I found that part very immersion-breaking and made Shepard a borderline Mary Sue in my opinion.

Of course, if David had his way, we'd have alot more scenes like that...

[David7204]

Shepard's charisma is absolutely real. The arguments that Shepard gives are outstanding.

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

 Plenty of people choose non-optimal choices for their canon playthoughs, and that's the end of it. You start any thread about Ashley or Kaidan and I can promise you there will be people posting about how happy they were to shoot them.

The fact that you can divide so many of ME's choices into 'optimal v non-optimal' speaks volumes.

[David7204]

Yes it does.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Xilizhra wrote...

The ashley/kaiden choice was great because it subverted the player and asked them to come out of a no win scenario. First step was to ask you to send someone with the salarians, what results of this from most players is they say "Oh its like the wrex situation where i got to choose if he lived or died? Okay I'll send the character i hate with the salarians" but then you end up having the other character stay behind to arm the bomb, while you continue on to save the other character and the salarians. halfway through that trek shepard is forced to make a choice, but the thing that makes the choice interesting is that it becomes less about which character you like more, and about whether you feel like the life of the character you like more is more valuable than saving the salarians who are in trouble. It becomes a choice of "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and, in my case, ended with me saving a character i HATED because i would have felt like a scumbag leaving those salarians to die. it was my choice and i spent a good long while debating it before i could pick. it was real to me and i felt a true connection to the game in that moment.

IIRC, you save the salarians regardless if you do all the optional objectives to sabotage the geth.

yes well thats information you dont have at the time of making the choice.  you have to think in terms of the moment.  at the time of making that decision you are holding those salarians' lives in your hands, which is what makes it a meaningful choice, because its a 2 (almost 3) step process of getting you to choose between the right thing to do and the character that you liked more than the other human.  thats what makes it a cool choice.  Having to choose between garrus's revenge and technology that could help you defeat the collectors is the kind of thing that made the ending of the paragon lost anime surprisingly good (even if the movie as a whole kind of stank, that ending was a really sharp idea)

when you get a bright blue option that says "both of you calm down" you already know that its a reward for having high points.  you dont even have to think about it.  its blue and it says a reassuring text string.  its PERFECT.  )))

[David7204]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

It's not ludicous at all. It's an absolutely solid point - that the whole trial isn't legitimate in the first place, and that the admirals truthfully know Tali is innocent, but feel prosecuting her is worth advancing their agenda.

No, what's ludicous would be the supposeadly smart and heroic protagonist drooling like a log. Which is pretty much what would happen in any other game.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

David7204 wrote...

Yes it does.

I believe what Ferretinabun MEANT to say was "it speaks volumes about your intelligence and your narrow minded view on games as storytelling devices"  but i might just be projecting a little bit here.  ;-}

[Ferretinabun]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

Because the trial is a political cluster**** that none of the admirals are coming into with clean hands, and they've basically been publicly shamed. The "rally the crowd" option does the same thing if you have the right people. Also, only one of them would seem to really want to find Tali guilty to begin with. Since Tali is a valuable asset to the fleet in any case, they all decide that the case isn't worth potentially damaging their own careers pursuing further and decide to let her off.

It is a convened court of law. And if it to have any viability, it must at least stand by its own laws.

Fair enough the admirals aren't impartial, but Shepard hasn't publically shamed them. He's just thrown out a few (extremely serious) accusations and given an emotive testimony on Tali's character. The idea that one person could brow-beat a legal court on their own turf is ridiculous.

[David7204]

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

And all I see from you is a demand that Shepard be flawless, infallible, incorruptible, persuasive to the point of absurdity, and never ever wrong about anything.

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

It's not ludicous at all. It's an absolutely solid point - that the whole trial isn't legitimate in the first place, and that the admirals truthfully know Tali is innocent, but feel prosecuting her is worth advancing their agenda.

No, what's ludicous would be the supposeadly smart and heroic protagonist drooling like a log. Which is pretty much what would happen in any other game.

Ummm, when was it established that the admirals knew Tali was innocent? They all have individual interests in the case, sure, but they've obviously decided to go ahead with the trial. Why would SHep's speach get them to suddenly change their minds? It's not like he's got any evidence on his side...

[Xilizhra]

yes well thats information you dont have at the time of making the choice. you have to think in terms of the moment. at the time of making that decision you are holding those salarians' lives in your hands, which is what makes it a meaningful choice, because its a 2 (almost 3) step process of getting you to choose between the right thing to do and the character that you liked more than the other human. thats what makes it a cool choice. Having to choose between garrus's revenge and technology that could help you defeat the collectors is the kind of thing that made the ending of the paragon lost anime surprisingly good (even if the movie as a whole kind of stank, that ending was a really sharp idea)

But that doesn't even apply unless you deliberately tried to kill the one you liked less by misunderstanding the mission text.

It is a convened court of law. And if it to have any viability, it must at least stand by its own laws.

Fair enough the admirals aren't impartial, but Shepard hasn't publically shamed them. He's just thrown out a few (extremely serious) accusations and given an emotive testimony on Tali's character. The idea that one person could brow-beat a legal court on their own turf is ridiculous.

The other thing is that the evidence against Tali really is very flimsy. Trying to prove that she was somehow responsible for this against Shepard's testimony wouldn't be at all easy, and none of them seemed to want a drawn-out trial.

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

It is not being stupid and helpless to not be a Mary Sue. It just means you are one limited person in the world, rather than the point around which it revolves.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

David7204 wrote...

You're wrong.

You are making up completely stupid, nonsense, garbage facts.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

the only reason people pick them is for fun after the fact.

That is garbage. It is garbage. The 'average player' picks paragon options because the 'average player' finds heroism to be a meaningful and fulfilling theme and outcome. But many players don't.

Is this how lousy your arguments are? That you have to completely make up nonsense to defend yourself? Plenty of people choose non-optimal choices for their canon playthoughs, and that's the end of it. You start any thread about Ashley or Kaidan and I can promise you there will be people posting about how happy they were to shoot them.

And you have to do it. You know why? Because you realize the same thing I do. - That you aren't acknowledging a facet of the choices. That there must be something else there, because if there wasn't nobody would pick them. But people do.

woah woah waoh.  since when did the majority of players pick paragon?  The majority of players pick LEFT SIDE OPTIONS because they're easy win choices.  (most players pick renegade left, actually)  it wasnt until ME3 that renegade became "evil"  No renegade choice shepard made in me2 was ever "bad".  Even the geth server level (legion's loyalty) its about "Is brainwashing evil or is destroying them evil?"  The paragon option was just as sketch as the renegade option, but you couldnt let them go because they would infect all geth and turn them into heretics.  you were forced to make one of the few interesting choices in ME2.

 (its a shame it didnt have a bigger impact on 3.  If you werent able to save the geth and quarians then you'd have that massive 300 point difference in war assets versus your legion's loyalty mission choice.  ex: if you choose to destroy the heretics but side with the geth on rannoch you have 300 less geth points than if you rewrote the heretics and then sided with the geth on rannoch)

[David7204]

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

And all I see from you is a demand that Shepard be flawless, infallible, incorruptible, persuasive to the point of absurdity, and never ever wrong about anything.

Not Shepard, specifically. Not anyone, specifically. But I demand that one person, preferably a few people be ideal heroes, yes.

[Ferretinabun]

Xilizhra wrote...

The other thing is that the evidence against Tali really is very flimsy. Trying to prove that she was somehow responsible for this against Shepard's testimony wouldn't be at all easy, and none of them seemed to want a drawn-out trial.

The evidence was apparently strong enough for them to call the trial.

I'll admit the evidence isn't watertight, but it is suggestive and it doesn't look good. And the best Shep can muster in his defence is accusations at the admirals and a personal testimony of Tali. If the case for the prosecution is weak, the case for the defence is far weaker.

[someguy1231]

David7204 wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

And all I see from you is a demand that Shepard be flawless, infallible, incorruptible, persuasive to the point of absurdity, and never ever wrong about anything.

Not Shepard, specifically. Not anyone, specifically. But I demand that one person, preferably a few people be ideal heroes, yes.

So you admit you want your ideal hero to be a Mary Sue/Boring Invincible Hero. Okay. Gotcha.

We're done here....

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Xilizhra wrote...

Its still character death because now its tali who's suddenly really stupid for no reason.

And such may be the case, but it has nothing to do with Shepard's choices being too powerful or whatever.

do you see my point though?  They had to sacrifice the character and narrative integrity to get that outcome.

the only reason they MAKE tali not say it is because of these two options:

A) She tells han'gerril and he calls off the attack, believing in her warning.  Shepard is not allowed to make a choice at the end of rannoch and the mission feels like it was just autodialogue.

 She tells han'gerril and he ignores her warnings.  then shepard tells han'gerril and he heeds them?  This makes both characters of Tali and Han seem broken and wrongly written.


For shepard to be allowed to make a choice on rannoch they had to shut tali up and ruin her character so that they didnt have to completely ruin both her character and han's.

Conversely, both right side outcomes to this chapter of the game feel SUPER emotional and stay true to ALL characters involved.  "Stop legion or let him upload the code?"  is what the real choice of rannoch should have been.  An LP show I watch, Videogames Awesome, are really enjoying their me3 playthrough, but when they realised that they could just "choose both" on rannoch they got really upset.  "What was the point of all that?  I thought I was going to have to really think about this...****ing hell, game.  *sighs*"

[David7204]

The evidence is stated nearly word-for-word. The admirals knew Tali to be very careful and competent, and they also knew Ra'al was conducting experiments on the geth. They also knew Tali hadn't sent near enough shipments to build the amount of geth on the Alarei. Everything points to Tali's father having everything to do with it and Tali just being a courier.

[David7204]

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

someguy1231 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

All I see here is a demand that every character be as stupid and helpless as you are.

And all I see from you is a demand that Shepard be flawless, infallible, incorruptible, persuasive to the point of absurdity, and never ever wrong about anything.

Not Shepard, specifically. Not anyone, specifically. But I demand that one person, preferably a few people be ideal heroes, yes.

So you admit you want your ideal hero to be a Mary Sue/Boring Invincible Hero. Okay. Gotcha.

We're done here....

The mere fact that you're clearly completely incapable of distingishing a Mary Sue from a hero speaks volumes.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

What is the difference, in this scenario, between charisma and just being a plain Mary Sue?

See my posts.

Alright, maybe this wasn't the best example to illustrate my point.

Take Tali's trial. How does the paragon/renegade option work there? It is ludicrous that Shepard gets to subvert a treason trial's need for evidence just by making an empassioned speach on Tali's behalf.

Because the trial is a political cluster**** that none of the admirals are coming into with clean hands, and they've basically been publicly shamed. The "rally the crowd" option does the same thing if you have the right people. Also, only one of them would seem to really want to find Tali guilty to begin with. Since Tali is a valuable asset to the fleet in any case, they all decide that the case isn't worth potentially damaging their own careers pursuing further and decide to let her off.

They could have EASILY gotten past shepard's accusations AND kept their reputations intact by simply saying "How dare you make a mockery of this trial.  We'll have you held in contempt if you make another outburst like that."  Y'know, like how things would go in a real trial if the defendant's attourney just started showboating and shtttalking.  "Not immediately giving up" works pretty well, even if you're a side character in a video game.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 13 mars 2013 - 04:01 .

[David7204]

Here's a little quiz. Can anyone here claiming that Shepard is a 'Mary Sue' actually tell me the definition of a 'Mary Sue'?

[N7Keller]

They 'shot themselves in the foot' with Mass Effect 2. They added way to many characters and story lines that they didn't conclude. This made Mass Effect 3 even harder to write.