292 réponses à ce sujet

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

No. Shepard doesn't need to prove anything. Do you know understand the difference between 'prove' and 'convince'? Because I can assure you they don't mean the same thing. I can assure you that you generally don't need to 'prove' something to convince something, unless it's dealing with math or science.

You can play semantic games, but a trial needs evidence. It is not swayed by rhetoric and emotive speaking. And evidence is something Shepard never produced (unless they elect to lose Tali's loyalty).

How does Shepard do it? Simple. By reminding the Admirals vividly of Tali's contributions to the quarians and the greater galaxy, and putting their own actions up to the light.

He reminds them of nothing they do not already know if he takes the option to report no evidence found, ehich leads to Tali's conviction. As for 'holding their actions up to the light', this consists of a few vague and unsupported accusations which apparently brow-beat a council of admirals... That's taking liberties with credulity.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 13 mars 2013 - 04:34 .

[Bill Casey]

The whole thing was a kangaroo court in the first place...
It was all political posturing, ulterior motives and looking for someone to blame who wasn't dead...

[Bill Casey]

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can play semantic games, but a trial needs evidence.

TO CONVICT SOMEONE...

Is the end of that sentence...

[Ferretinabun]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The evidence wasn't enough to go ahead with the trial to begin with if the whole thing wasn't just a cover for the political infighting. The trial itself was pretty much an unimportant sham.

Who gained anything from putting Tali on trial?

Koris would be able to repudiate Rael's tactics, Xen wants information (both for science and to prove that her dreams have a stronger basis) and Gerrel probably didn't want it, but will go through with it to spin things to the advantage of Rael's memory and his own plans for war.

I'm afraid the idea that the Admirals wou;dn't want Tali convicted is belied by the fact that she IS convicted if Shep does not fo the paragon/renegade option and simply reports no evidence found on the ship. The only difference between this and Shep's para/reneg response is his speech. That is, apparently, enough to sway the trial's verdict. And yet it is mere rhetoric that should not sway any serious court of law.

Koris does want it and Xen'll go along with it; only Gerrel would resist, and he can't really do so. Also, note that Shepard can just rally the crowd and have the same result. The trial, if we strip away the political crap, is basically about whether Tali is likely or not to have screwed up and sent active geth over. In the face of nothing at all, the evidence for that, however flimsy, will stand; with Shepard's testimony there, there's not really enough evidence to prove that Tali is guilty of anything, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I just don't see why Shep's testimony should be important enough to tip the scales either way.

[David7204]

You're vehemently opposed to heroism and yet you're very determined that Shepard isn't a hero, aren't you?

[Xilizhra]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The evidence wasn't enough to go ahead with the trial to begin with if the whole thing wasn't just a cover for the political infighting. The trial itself was pretty much an unimportant sham.

Who gained anything from putting Tali on trial?

Koris would be able to repudiate Rael's tactics, Xen wants information (both for science and to prove that her dreams have a stronger basis) and Gerrel probably didn't want it, but will go through with it to spin things to the advantage of Rael's memory and his own plans for war.

I'm afraid the idea that the Admirals wou;dn't want Tali convicted is belied by the fact that she IS convicted if Shep does not fo the paragon/renegade option and simply reports no evidence found on the ship. The only difference between this and Shep's para/reneg response is his speech. That is, apparently, enough to sway the trial's verdict. And yet it is mere rhetoric that should not sway any serious court of law.

Koris does want it and Xen'll go along with it; only Gerrel would resist, and he can't really do so. Also, note that Shepard can just rally the crowd and have the same result. The trial, if we strip away the political crap, is basically about whether Tali is likely or not to have screwed up and sent active geth over. In the face of nothing at all, the evidence for that, however flimsy, will stand; with Shepard's testimony there, there's not really enough evidence to prove that Tali is guilty of anything, beyond a reasonable doubt.

I just don't see why Shep's testimony should be important enough to tip the scales either way.

Tipping the scales at this point only really takes a feather. And it's a rather well-delivered feather as well. It's not a situation Shepard would likely be able to repeat anywhere else, but here it works.

Do you have any other issues you wanted to bring up, with what Shepard can do?

[Ferretinabun]

Bill Casey wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can play semantic games, but a trial needs evidence.

TO CONVICT SOMEONE...

Is the end of that sentence...

They convict her if Shep lies as Tali wants him/her to.

[thehomeworld]

Not everyone thought they were the alpha and omega and the game had to be tailored to them just some people and you can find them fairly quickly with post like BW said this was MY GAME! or my headcannon is superior to yours! My headcannon trumps even BW!

Most people realized this was a predesigned game with predesigned outcomes and the choices made were what BW allowed you to make to spice up your game. They already knew their custom shep wasn't real cover shep and whatever custom shep did that deviated from real shep it wouldn't be cannon. You can look at the game and their choices and outcomes and see what BW would've preferred happened or what would be cannon if BW chose to make it so or to do a movie and make the choices cannon for instance Mshep is the lead, he saves Ash on Virmire, he falls in love with Liara he cures all the wrongs in the galaxy, and destroys the reapers BW might not come out and say it but when you read between the lines you can pretty much see it.

On the upgrades to the ship I don't think they should've been tied to the survival of each crew member it should've been if you didn't to this upgrade then you lessen the chances of the ship being repairable in the amount of time it takes you to kill the terminator baby and escape. IF you didn't do key upgrades like engines and haul then you don't escape and everybody dies at the base but doing so as they go down fighting. If you fix those things they can repair the ship but say you didn't fix the shields of the ship so you blew up the base and instead of living you vaporize everybody dies again if you fixed the shields then you'll pull through smoking but you will be alive if you blow the base. Samara's scanners aren't an issue the fuel thing isn't an issue since Omega is right there so you really only needed to do three things to make sure you live blowing up the base and you only needed to do two things to escape if you didn't blow up the base.

What should've got your crewmen killed were selective people's LM for instance Tali, Garrus, Miranda, and Kasumi all should've had a die roll done if they were chosen to lead or preform a task and you didn't do their loyalty missions. The die roll would say if it bad that so and so screws up Miranda used too much biotics during the bubble to keep going till the end, Tali messed up the code on the door, Garrus took a bullet for someone on his team in a split second choice if you don't pick them for any main position then during the fleeing or if you took them with you to fight the terminator they will not make it to cover in time and die by laser or fall from the platform and not land with you and die in the abyss. Why?

Because both Miranda and Garrus have it established that they can't let their LM go Garrus wants justice no matter what when it comes to wrong doers per ME. Miranda can't live normally knowing Oriana is in danger so both these people would screw up due to the inability to focus purely. Kasumi's living is tied to the fact her grey box should've been the undoing or extream weakening of the Alliance and the whole war effort if the Alliance was made weak in ME3 because you gave the data to TIM then they can barely help anybody once the reapers show you also don't get a high end ship and must upgrade it on your own dime as you go because TIM used the info to hurt the Alliance you are also in prison not on home arrest during the invasion and you have subpar gear that must be updated on your own dime. Tali would be found guilty if you don't do her LM and so she's majorly distraught shamming herself, her father, and her aunt who also is unadmiraled due to the scandal. Every other crewmate could've done their mission later w/o shep even Liara can and does finish the SB DLC w/o you. So no additional tie in death should've been made in ME2 beyond prescripted.

Or gaining the uprades in the challange matter OP stated would work too but for instance the creative star treck version of your scenario with Xen is petition Mordin to see if the STG science team can do something instead if you turned down Xen this would not be highlighted and you'd have to talk to Mordin specifically on the subject of Quarians to Mordin.

They should've had a reoccurring conflicts as well as others for instance Miranda/Jack should've flared up regardless of which side you chose and for different reasons, Tali/Legion you could resolve by picking both because they're both right. Tali should've also fought with Shep for bringing legion onboard even if she was in party she'd just say I tried to accept this but I can't. Tali/Legion should've acted up again on another organic vs synthetic issue after overlord and shep being hacked Legion started out trying to explain how it goes Tali finds this offensive and disrespectful to shep. Mordin/Jacob over his father, Samura/Zaeed criminal, Samara/Thane criminal, Kasumi/Mornith over the fact she's not her mom, Shep/Miranda shep can confront Miranda after being hacked in overlord and arrival and over the LP

Shep also should've been able to personally argue with TIM especially para and Akuze shep's pushing TIM and his idea of generosity at every encounter and after overlord and at this point bring up any rage over the LP and suspicious he as on Miranda spying on him and the cameras on ship by TIM.

[oldag07]

I didn't read the rest of the posts. To answer the OP, because ultimately people don't really want to make the hard decisions. I spend 20 hours on a playthough. To be quite honest, I don't really either. I have better things to do with my time. I prefer to watch the bad decisions on youtube, but never really play them.

Modifié par oldag07, 13 mars 2013 - 04:42 .

[Bill Casey]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can play semantic games, but a trial needs evidence.

TO CONVICT SOMEONE...

Is the end of that sentence...

They convict her if Shep lies as Tali wants him/her to.

Because it's a kangaroo court that only cares about political posturing...

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

You're vehemently opposed to heroism and yet you're very determined that Shepard isn't a hero, aren't you?

I think I just have a different definition of 'hero'.

Winning should be possible. But it shouldn't be easy. And it should rarely be painless.

[Ferretinabun]

Bill Casey wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

You can play semantic games, but a trial needs evidence.

TO CONVICT SOMEONE...

Is the end of that sentence...

They convict her if Shep lies as Tali wants him/her to.

Because it's a kangaroo court that only cares about political posturing...

And that suddenly stops being the case if Shepard makes a 'brilliant' speech...?

[Bill Casey]

No it doesn't...
Which is why they clear Tali's name...

[David7204]

Ferretinabun wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You're vehemently opposed to heroism and yet you're very determined that Shepard isn't a hero, aren't you?

I think I just have a different definition of 'hero'.

Winning should be possible. But it shouldn't be easy. And it should rarely be painless.

You seem to be confusing Shepard with yourself. We're the players. All we can ever do is push buttons. It's going to be easy for us no matter what. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a game, would it? 

But is it easy or painless for Shepard? Of course not. And it Shepard's heroism that matters.

[Ferretinabun]

Bill Casey wrote...

No it doesn't...
Which is why they clear Tali's name...

She's convicted if Shep doesn't make the speech.

She's not convicted if s/he does.

The only variable here is Shep's 'brilliant' speech.

[Ferretinabun]

David7204 wrote...

You seem to be confusing Shepard with yourself. We're the players. All we can ever do is push buttons. It's going to be easy for us no matter what. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be a game, would it?

Well of course. I didn't mean painless literally.

But is it easy or painless for Shepard?

In this case, yes. He wins. Just by making an emotive speech. And he has lost nothing in the process.

[Bill Casey]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

No it doesn't...
Which is why they clear Tali's name...

She's convicted if Shep doesn't make the speech.

She's not convicted if s/he does.

The only variable here is Shep's 'brilliant' speech.

Which changes the political expediency of the situation...
Either way, the admirals are just looking to save face...


You can get the same result by having Reegar and Veetor turn on them...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 mars 2013 - 04:51 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Recently I had sort of an epiphany that by giving players so much control over the game that bioware actually ended up shooting themselves in the foot because players got lulled into thinking they were the alpha and omega of the universe and didnt like being able to make certain decisions early but then not those decisions later.  This extends through ME2 AND 3 for me.  Namely the fact that its SO EASY to end up with a perfect suicide mission in 2.  Alot of these super perfect solutions ended up backfiring in ME3 when quarian/geth peace became really common and easy to achieve, for example.  (I still think shepard being able to convince them to stop their war was silly)

<snip>

[*]I'm probably going to go over this later and see what combination would allow for a full 12 to survive  (would it be possible under these conditions to get all 12 AND the whole crew?) 

I had some different ideas along the same lines. But like most players, you think like a pragmatic paragon at worst.

1) Your idea with Xen is flawed. Xen didn't give a damn about the trial. She was interested in the research only. Shepard should have been able to cut a side deal with her to give her the data, but only if she kept Rael's name out of it and took full credit for the research herself. In the game you could approach her after the trial and she did ask you "are you sure you didn't find anything aboard the Alerei, Commander?"

It is here where you should have had that opportunity. "If I did, what would I gain from it? What would Tali gain from it?" and Xen could offer you a weapon, some additional shielding, or something like that for either your ship or your armor, and just forget where she found the data. This of course would be a renegade deal. Paragons would have nothing to do with this. You should not lose Tali's loyalty. I think renegades got the shaft too many times for being pragmatic. This would be a pragmatic decision as opposed to being idealistic.

2) The thing about someone like a pragmatic non-idealistic Shepard is that some ass like Harkin is likely to get himself bound and gagged and tossed into the back of the car while Garrus takes out Sidonis, then taken into a room somewhere for some "interrogation". I'm sure Mordin can help extract the information rather painlessly.

3) You give Jacob's dad a better weapon in exchange for the location of the armor research. Well the "hunters" are all after Jacob's dad. Pick up the women, the research and leave Jacob's dad there.... alone if he survived. There are fates worse than death, explain that to Jacob.

4) The Tali/Legion scenario is easy. I don't activate Legion until after the Suicide Mission, then do his loyalty mission and blow up the heretics. I have Kasumi for tech expert.

5) Zaeed? I kill Vido. Not a problem. Vido shot him in the head. Vido hired Batarians. "Cheaper labor, he said. Bunch of goddamn terrorists, I said" I agree with Zaeed. Shepard hates Batarians. Vido needs to die. Vido is a bad man. (oh but the refinery workers! -- the place is going to blow! Look, I'm sorry. I'm just a farmer, and a goddamned assassin. How the hell am I supposed to know how to stop a damned refinery from blowing up? -- I'm role playing here. I'm going with Zaeed.)

6) Jack/Miranda? Side with Jack. Garrus, whose loyalty is secured and with the thanix weapon now secured through other means leads the groups. Miranda hangs back in Garrus' group.

The reaper orbiting the brown dwarf? Fall within the next day? garbage. 37 million years. It's orbit would not decay like that. Pure garbage. Smudboy would have you on that. LOL. The ironic thing is that TIM already has the IFF program as we find out later in ME3 since he was able to go through the Omega 4 relay and survive without the problem of drifting into a black hole.

What you could do is have another colony get hit, and you could give the player a choice of finishing building the crew or going for the IFF and then the crew gets taken, then launch the Suicide mission to save the crew and colonists. If you finish building the team you lose these colonists too.

Renegade does not mean evil. What Samara is concerned about is sparing the innocent and if you're too corrupt. If you do not harm the innocent or make her do anything too corrupt, she will not hunt you down

I've been down the road before. Legion is in AI core sleeping.

Kasumi in the tube, Mordin on escort. Miranda unloyal, Garrus fireteam leader. Miranda and Zaeed with me on the first leg. Jack on the bubble ("Let your rage power that thing, Jack", I say to myself.). Samara and Zaeed with me. Garrus fireteam leader.

Last leg: Grunt and Samara with me. Garrus hold the line leader.

Everyone survives. This is not an "evil" play through.

I also thought that Shepard had way too much control over Rannoch. If Shepard allows Legion or Geth VI to upload the code twice.

1) If Legion, Tali should use Sabotage on him when he tries to upload the code. If Geth VI she should try to kill him.

2) Shepard should have to make two successive renegade interrupts to stop her. If Legion, they talk Peace -- okay; side against Quarians, Shepard has a fight. If Geth VI, and Shepard successful, Tali will turn and try to kill Shepard -- it's a one shot kill with a shotgun at that distance. If Shepard fails on the interrupts, Tali kills Legion or Geth VI.

3) If Tali kills Legion or Geth VI, then Shepard will have an option to kill Tali. This will cost the Alliance the Quarian fleet. Shepard leaves with nothing. If Shepard had allowed the upload twice and didn't stop him, Tali will stay on Rannoch with her people.

[Ferretinabun]

Well, I think I've argued here long enough for one evening.

[David7204]

It's a very impressive speech. A speech far beyond what most people are capable of. You're assuming that just because for you it's as easy as pushing a button it's just as easy for Shepard.

[Bill Casey]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Well, I think I've argued here long enough for one evening.

I accept your apology...

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Hey what if I sidestepped this arguement for a moment to explore the ideas of my OP a little and see how many perfect solutions there are?

Loyalty Rules:
Miranda - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Jack
Jacob - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Armor Upgrade
Jack - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Miranda
Mordin - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Grunt
Grunt - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Mordin, Sealed
Garrus - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Cannon Upgrade
Thane - Loyalty Mission can be failed
Samara - Loyalty Mission can be failed, replacable with Morinth, Renegade Alignment loses Loyalty
Tali - Loyalty Mission can be failed, Conflict with Legion, Conflict with Shields Upgrade
Legion - Loyalty Mission, Conflict with Tali
Zaeed - Loyalty Mission can be failed
Kasumi - Loyalty Mission


Trying to figure out a combination that saves the crew....you'd end up wtih at least 5 unloyal characters if you got all the ship upgrades, and you'd need to rely on the miranda as invincible fire team leader 2 to get as many HTL points as possible.

Jack, Mordin, Kasumi, Thane, Samara, Legion, Zaeed loyal.  Miranda, Jacob, Grunt, Garrus, Tali unloyal.

Mordin/Jack/Kasumi as the final boss and escort allows them to survive, that leaves the hold the line team as:
Thane, Samara, Legion, Zaeed, Miranda, Jacob, Grunt, Garrus, Tali.
This score is 2+2+2+4+1+1+3+3+0=18 points divided by 9 squadmates equals a score of 2.  this allows all squadmates to survive AND the crew to be escorted.  Acquiring this might be difficult with how the middle of the game works.  (it ends up with exactly as many extra points per squadmate as you could lack on other squadmates)

Let's see...
Kasumi Loyalty, Zaeed Loyalty, Recruitments, Horizon
Tali, Samara, Thane, Jacob Loyalty, Mordin Loyalty, Grunt Loyalty, Collector Ship
Reaper IFF, Jack Loyalty, Garrus Loyalty, Thane Loyalty, Crew Abduction
Required: Tali Loyalty, Samara Loyalty, Legion Loyalty  (half crew dies)
Leftover: Miranda Loyalty, DLC Missions, N7 Missions

So you can get all 12 characters but you still lose kelly and half the crew.  In order to save the entire crew you'd need to head through the relay earlier.

Imagine how crazy intense that moment where jacob and miranda ask you whether we need to get the crew back yet or not if you still had 4 loyalty missions left to do.  How would you feel if you turned down the first ship upgrade because the offer was "skeezy" but then you get to a second upgrade offer and a third, what would be going through the player's head?  Would it be as crazy as the ending of ME1 where you're trying to figure out what you should do?  It would have been really crazy.  (most people would have ended up going for loyalty and losing the crew, and still having interesting choices ahead of them with the choices I put forward here.  I find it interesting how there ends up being one basic path forward.  (if you recruit everybody, if you arent recruiting everybody thats a different story but i still dont think that allows full survival of crew AND squad)  its...interesting and feels like an actual system.

I dont think i missed anything?  the upgrades thing, removal of "easy fixes", and forced reaper iff mission make this what it is.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 13 mars 2013 - 05:42 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

David7204 wrote...

It's a very impressive speech. A speech far beyond what most people are capable of. You're assuming that just because for you it's as easy as pushing a button it's just as easy for Shepard.

any intelligent anarchist could give that speech, or hippy.

[David7204]

I very seriously doubt that.

[Xamufam]

to have total control drew me to the series it whats made ME sell, it's an rpg players expect to have more control over the outcome
If I wanted no control over the game i would go & play uncharted
arushedjoke.wordpress.com/2012/03/31/mass-effect-3-and-artistic-integrity/
arushedjoke.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/bioware-and-artistic-vision/

Modifié par Troxa, 13 mars 2013 - 06:25 .