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Who wants to see A Song of Ice and Fire style storytelling?


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#201
Sutekh

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Gyrefalcon wrote...

You do realize that the most important thing here is that you are actually comparing a video game to a novel.

Indeed. Comparing character and plot development of a series of books which has thousand of pages to do so properly and a video game is not only unfair, it's pointless. Those aren't the same writing processes at all, just as you don't write a short story like a novel or a movie like a TV show. Add to that the interactive aspect of the game which means writers are constrained to take variables (player's input) into account, and you end up with things basically different.

Unrelated, I don't agree with "ASoIaF is grim and dark only, punishes the good and rewards the wicked". Without getting into spoilery details and examples, there are multiple instances of the opposite, some quite surprising. There is hope, and there is satisfaction, made all the better because they're both rare and unpredictable (this said, I've no doubts that characters like Ramsay Snow will get what they deserve at one point, just like the Goat did).

#202
Rawgrim

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Planescape: Torment gets compared to a novel all the time, though.

#203
Sutekh

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Rawgrim wrote...

Planescape: Torment gets compared to a novel all the time, though.

It does?

Well, it may have novel-like depth and elements, but even PS:T isn't written like a novel. And it certainly doesn't play as such (IMO, of course, and iirc, since it was a long time ago).

#204
imbs

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Gyrefalcon wrote...

imbs wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...


DA seires on the other hand, does not convey enough realism in character motivation and plots. It's not a matter of how dark the mood or how many characters get killed; it's about individuals(characters) acting on their own goal of survival and looking out for their own interest, and DA defniately lacks it in comparison to TW2 or ASOIF.


This is a good point really, and is definitely a good example of why DA is not as well written as say ASOIAF. Characters are written for the moment, instead of written for what they would actually do in a given situation. On the other hand when a fan asked the writer of ASOIAF why he enjoyed killing his characters off so much he responded along the lines of "it's the other characters killing them, not me" and generally indicated that he has a hard time offing his creations. Staying true to established characters is something DA has not done particularly well.


You do realize that the most important thing here is that you are actually comparing a video game to a novel.  That would never have happened with Pac Man, Modern Warfare, Legend of Zelda, or Arkham Asylum.  Although the writing is "not as good as" that of George R. R. Martin's ASOIAF series, it is good enough that it is under scrutiny for its writing.  I really think the D.A. series is raising the bar for video games.  I also think that if the D.A. games were allowed as much time for writing/development as each book of George R. R. Martin's, we would have a better product. They are really working under the gun sometimes.  I'm willing to wait for good things.  ;)



Games like Pac Man, Zelda etc are gameplay based games, that put 0 effort and/or advertising into the story. Bioware on the other hand loves to harp on about story etcetc. And yes, one of the big reasons ASOIAF is superior in story/world is because of the media it is. Video games will always have far more limitations than books; Dragon age world/story IS objectively worse than ASOIAF world/story - this is a point that has been heavily disputed in this thread so far which I find to be pretty hilarious.

Don't get me wrong I like both worlds/stories (if we ignore 90% of DA2) but they can still be compared. Characters staying in character would be a huge improvement in future Bioware games, imo. That's why I made that post generally. Expecting Bioware to write as good a story as GRRM is entirely unreasonable, I know.

Modifié par imbs, 15 mars 2013 - 11:22 .


#205
Commander Kurt

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Dave of Canada wrote...

When someone asks for realism in grim-darkness, they're mostly asking for consequences of decisions actually having some influence. For myself, I always want no happy alternatives with the player choosing themselves what constitutes the "right" decision.

I still believe the Suicide Mission from ME2 should've had some forced deaths with you deciding who should die, who should live and actually suffering the burden of command. The "optimal" route being less deaths rather than everyone living and happily-ever after.

Look at The Walking Dead (game), good people suffer bad things and you can't save everyone. Is the "optimist" route superior than the "survivor" route? No, there's perfectely legitimate reasons to have both routes and none suffer worse consequences or "win".

Getting out unharmed, always having a way out and having everyone praise your decisions and never confronting you about them isn't very mature.


I largely agree with you, there is no need for constant sunshine and rainbows. Saving Connor should have hurt you. Killing the Magistrate's son should have hurt you. The games could definitely have been darker in that sense. Still, this is not what I take from ASOIAF. Most of that brutality and cruelty is not the consequences of descisions but rather bad luck. And I still would have been fine with it had there been a balance, but no one is ever happy (for long). No good intentions ever pay off. Life is all toil and strife and then you die violently.

If DA was more like ASOIAF, Fenris and Anders would fit right in. Merrill and Alistair not so much (well, they would, but then they'd have to die painfully). I just feel that there is a place in this world for innocence and naiveté and trust. I honestly can't breathe without those things. To say that punishing them by death every time they appear is realistic is saddening to me.

#206
Silfren

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Sutekh wrote...

Gyrefalcon wrote...

You do realize that the most important thing here is that you are actually comparing a video game to a novel.

Indeed. Comparing character and plot development of a series of books which has thousand of pages to do so properly and a video game is not only unfair, it's pointless. Those aren't the same writing processes at all, just as you don't write a short story like a novel or a movie like a TV show. Add to that the interactive aspect of the game which means writers are constrained to take variables (player's input) into account, and you end up with things basically different.


What's funny here is that you apparently didn't read beyond the first sentence of the person you just quoted, because you write as if you agree with them that it's a bad idea to compare a video game with a novel, while their whole point was that it was great to now be comparing games with books.

#207
Sutekh

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Silfren wrote...

What's funny here is that you apparently didn't read beyond the first sentence of the person you just quoted, because you write as if you agree with them that it's a bad idea to compare a video game with a novel, while their whole point was that it was great to now be comparing games with books.

I did read the whole post, and understood it as you did, but took this only sentence because it illustrated my point that as well-written a video game may be, it can never be compared to a book in terms of quality because the writing process is different. So saying ASoIaF is "objectively better" than DA is sort of baseless. That was my point.

What's yours?

#208
IntoTheDarkness

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Commander Kurt wrote...


You think the AD uses tactics? It's cunning for an animal, it's not Li the Glorious Strategist. Siding with a traitor is exactly what is in the Nobles best interest, why should they want a war? I can think of no war in history that was ever due to an "unfair" power grab. Antagonist doing the James Bond villain is because the Wardens are under the protection of Arl Eamon, a powerful man and possible contender for the throne. Treason is fine, but alas, you can't do it openly

Regarding the idiot ball, I've been critical about Loghain hogging it for the entire game but the man really has nothing on the Starks. Ned, Edd and Sansa (well, the mother's no genious either) are acting well beyond reason, but I guess that's okay since they represent the good side? Having the good guys constantly making the wrong call and the bad guys constantly making the right one makes the story dark. It isn't realism, though. It's just tragedy, a story element that you seem to prefer (which is fine).


Give me one example in medieval history where a field commander outright betrays his king leading troops and convinces nobles that an ancient order of noble purpose with widespread recognition (this is non existing of course but let's say church or an order of knights that participated in the battle) is responsible for all these with no proof to support his claim and hundreds of his own soldiers witnessing his betrayal.

Or, how about assigning two grey wardens to go to an unsecured tower across the bridge to fire a signal because you can't trust mages to send a signal when they are actually here to help the battle? Has it not occured to the chantry that they can have knights watching the mages in case they decide to not send a signal?

Don't be rediculus. As someone has said, DA:O is objectively and definately not well-written nor as realistic as ASOIF or TW2. Bioware games always follows a pattern of a bad guy's schemes succeeding at the beginning and the protagonist screwing it up with one big battle. It's not just media's problem as you can see from The Witcher 2. It has practially every character with their own motives and agenda.

In TW2, the bad guys constantly get in each other's way and their plots often change in directions they didn't anticipate because they are not collectively working against the protagonist but for their own goal, as ASOIF characters do. That is realitic and superior writing.

Granted, I admit that Bioware games generally have superb writing for RPG genre, but they are not the best. They make interesting characters but under a close scrutiny theses characters only talk in their character and barely act in their character. Bioware games will fall behind if you extend your scope to other genres, too.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 15 mars 2013 - 03:14 .


#209
Cimeas

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There's just too much rape in ASOIAF for my liking. Even as a straight guy, I think that if they are going to put it in, there should be some m/m in there just for realism. We all know that in male dominated, male only, power structures there is rape as well, but he conveniently neglects this as if the only rape men ever do is against women.

#210
Installation17

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So my PC will die a lot if I fail politics? Remind me to pour points into persuade. A play a dwarf. Or a dragon-queen.

#211
-TC1989-

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Cimeas wrote...

There's just too much rape in ASOIAF for my liking. Even as a straight guy, I think that if they are going to put it in, there should be some m/m in there just for realism. We all know that in male dominated, male only, power structures there is rape as well, but he conveniently neglects this as if the only rape men ever do is against women.


I agree with you, that would make it alot more realistic, and make it alittle less... I guess predictable? Of course with ASOIAF you're going to have sex/rape, and ect. If they could branch out alittle bit of that aspect, I think it'd make the story alittle more interesting. I rememeber seeing the whole Loras and Renly part of the story, and like you I'm a straight guy too, but it was something interesting and new, and personally I thought it was refreshing to see something alittle bold.

Sadly alot of people already have a huge issue having anything to do with rape. While I whole-heartedly agree that rape is awful, it does happen, and it does make the story more "real". But to add a m/m rape scene or something, I think would probably start a wildfire of criticism. Plus alot of people can't think outside the box as it is, and probably would find it "repulsive" or something ridiculous.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 15 mars 2013 - 09:11 .


#212
Dave of Canada

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Commander Kurt wrote...

The games could definitely have been darker in that sense. Still, this is not what I take from ASOIAF. Most of that brutality and cruelty is not the consequences of descisions but rather bad luck. And I still would have been fine with it had there been a balance, but no one is ever happy (for long). No good intentions ever pay off. Life is all toil and strife and then you die violently.


I'd say the opposite myself but it certainly is a valid point of view.

Personally, I loved that ASOIAF's characters suffer at the hands of their own choices and reap what they sow. The people who trusts too much or breaks his vows are destroyed by their own actions and I appreciated that everyone has their own agenda behind everything, it's not simply someone who's the "bad guy" and the protagonist can do wrong.

(Going onto a slightly-related tangent which isn't really focused at you, Kurt. :P)

It's something which I'd like to see explored more in the Dragon Age universe, something which the writers have tended to shy away from. We're (as in the Dragon Age protagonist and companions) living in an extremely xenophobic culture, yet we're never hearing any xenophobic comments from anyone except for the villain (and it's often thrown in as their "kick the puppy" scene).

Why can't good people be xenophobic? Why can't we see good and bad mages and templar? Why can't the protagonist suffer for the consequences of their own actions? Why does the player always have to "win"?

These are the things I dislike about the Dragon Age universe, they tend to throw everything aside with bare-bones gray morality to make the player stay in their comfort zone. The fact is, you're not supposed to be in your comfort zone when doing these things.

It's why I get pissed off when I see the Genophage plot's resolution in Mass Effect 3, everyone praises it but it always ends happily-ever after. The only thing which puts you out of the average player's comfort zone is the "evil" decision which--by all intents and purposes--appear rational but is portrayed as heartless, monstrous and ends up with everyone going exinct.

In addition to this, anyone who dares challenge the player and serves as a contrast must be eliminated because the player doesn't like them. I'm looking at characters like Udina, The Illusive Man, Meredith, etc. They're all very interesting characters who are placed onto the back-burner for the sake of having a villain in the plot, we can't agree with them in the end because they're made insane / mind-controlled for the sake of serving the player's self-righteous vengeance.

Games like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, etc. They tend to do it in a way which I love, they make every choice just as viable as the other except you've got consequences for both routes (or it goes no-where but greatly influences how people think of you).

The idealist may be betrayed in Game of Thrones but others recognize they were trying to do the "right thing" and earn their respect, helping them achieve something later down the line. Meanwhile, the rutheless guy is well-liked by his superiors but every-one else looks upon them as a monster. Some people die, some people don't. 

#213
Solmanian

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Cimeas wrote...

There's just too much rape in ASOIAF for my liking. Even as a straight guy, I think that if they are going to put it in, there should be some m/m in there just for realism. We all know that in male dominated, male only, power structures there is rape as well, but he conveniently neglects this as if the only rape men ever do is against women.


Well in medival settings homsexuality is a serious taboo, punishable in up to death penalty. I don't know how tolerant westross society is, but my guess is not vary... certainly nothing like the ridicolously ultra-liberal thedas. And add the fact that females are widely considering as second rate citizens, if not livestock, in those setting.

So if you're a hetrosexual, like the majority of people, why would you rape boys or man, when you can rape tavern wenches with impunity. And if you're homosexual, why risk your neck and reputation with possible exposure?

That's pretty much as far as I'm willing to discuss "who would you rather rape?".Image IPB

#214
imbs

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Cimeas wrote...

There's just too much rape in ASOIAF for my liking. Even as a straight guy, I think that if they are going to put it in, there should be some m/m in there just for realism. We all know that in male dominated, male only, power structures there is rape as well, but he conveniently neglects this as if the only rape men ever do is against women.


that's actually a legit criticism. The night's watch in particular not having any kind of male on male rape is questionable to say the least. There is *some* male on male rape in the books but not enough to hold up I dont think.

#215
Solmanian

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imbs wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

There's just too much rape in ASOIAF for my liking. Even as a straight guy, I think that if they are going to put it in, there should be some m/m in there just for realism. We all know that in male dominated, male only, power structures there is rape as well, but he conveniently neglects this as if the only rape men ever do is against women.


that's actually a legit criticism. The night's watch in particular not having any kind of male on male rape is questionable to say the least. There is *some* male on male rape in the books but not enough to hold up I dont think.


It's not like sailors stuck on a ship; they a brothel in a walking distance from the wall that is frequented by regular watchman aswell as officers. It might be frowned upon, butr they still do it.

Modifié par Solmanian, 16 mars 2013 - 01:33 .


#216
KeraWildmane

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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

When I first saw the title I thought: "Switching POV every half an hour? No thanks," but now I see what you mean.


That's what I thought he meant.

#217
Cimeas

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Solmanian wrote...

imbs wrote...


that's actually a legit criticism. The night's watch in particular not having any kind of male on male rape is questionable to say the least. There is *some* male on male rape in the books but not enough to hold up I dont think.


It's not like sailors stuck on a ship; they a brothel in a walking distance from the wall that is frequented by regular watchman aswell as officers. It might be frowned upon, butr they still do it.



But rape isn't just about sex, it's about power.   Many rapists are people who could easily have sex, or indeed as you say they could go to a brothel.  But instead they rape, because in a patriarchal society being raped by a man is losing your masculinity, and is as such a huge lose in confidence.  Rape is not just done for pleasure, but to exert control over someone, to humiliate them.  

They say that in America 1/36 men are raped in their lifetime.  That's millions of people.

Modifié par Cimeas, 16 mars 2013 - 02:09 .


#218
Cimeas

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Also your notion about homosexuality being taboo is true, but that hardly stopped the priests in the churches, did it. Rape always happens, now or then, regardless of 'moral taboos'.

#219
Plaintiff

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-TC1989- wrote...
But to add a m/m rape scene or something, I think would probably start a wildfire of criticism. Plus alot of people can't think outside the box as it is, and probably would find it "repulsive" or something ridiculous.

People should be repulsed by rape. :mellow:

#220
Plaintiff

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Dave of Canada wrote...
Why can't good people be xenophobic?

Because if you're xenophobic, you're not a good person.

#221
-TC1989-

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Plaintiff wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...
But to add a m/m rape scene or something, I think would probably start a wildfire of criticism. Plus alot of people can't think outside the box as it is, and probably would find it "repulsive" or something ridiculous.

People should be repulsed by rape. :mellow:


You missed my point. I'm not saying the aspect of rape as a whole. Of course rape is repulsive, like I had said earlier in my post. What I'm saying is if you combine rape with the idea of it being m/m rape, people would be more against it because of the simple fact it's two males.

Modifié par -TC1989-, 16 mars 2013 - 02:18 .


#222
KeraWildmane

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Plaintiff wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...
Why can't good people be xenophobic?

Because if you're xenophobic, you're not a good person.


Sad that that doesn't go without saying.

#223
Dave of Canada

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Plaintiff wrote...

Because if you're xenophobic, you're not a good person.


Just when I think it's impossible to have have that much self-righteous indignation, you prove me wrong. Times change, Thedas isn't there yet. I know your self-insert is nice, happy and modern but that's what it is, a self insert.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 16 mars 2013 - 02:21 .


#224
Plaintiff

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Dave of Canada wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Because if you're xenophobic, you're not a good person.


Just when I think it's impossible to have have that much self-righteous indignation, you prove me wrong. Times change, Thedas isn't there yet. I know your self-insert is nice, happy and modern but that's what it is, a self insert.

I'm not indignant, I'm just stating a fact.

There's no reason for Thedas to not be "there" yet. There's no law of the universe that says cultures have to be racist towards each other for x number of years.

But I'm not saying racism should be taken out of the DA setting. I'm just saying racists are not good people.

#225
Plaintiff

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-TC1989- wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

-TC1989- wrote...
But to add a m/m rape scene or something, I think would probably start a wildfire of criticism. Plus alot of people can't think outside the box as it is, and probably would find it "repulsive" or something ridiculous.

People should be repulsed by rape. :mellow:


You missed my point. I'm not saying the aspect of rape as a whole. Of course rape is repulsive, like I had said earlier in my post. What I'm saying is if you combine rape with the idea of it being m/m rape, people would be more against it because of the simple fact it's two males.

I'm sorry, but I find it really disturbing that anyone would say that ASOIAF doesn't have "enough rape", or that it needs more different kinds of rape.