163 réponses à ce sujet

[JorieSilver]

 So, I picked up DA:O for the first time in a long time today...and decided to play a city elf, as I had never done that before.

I knew it was kinda rape-y, which as a lady gamer made me a little uncomfortable in the first place. I didn't really need my video games to go there, so I didn't go there. But I was looking for something new in an old game, so I went for it. It couldn't be *that* bad, right? Right????

I kinda wish I'd done it a long time ago, just so I could have realized what a total a-hole Duncan actually is.

He let trio of nobles and thier well-armed guards abduct me and my wedding party with the express intention of *raping all of us.* He did this without even a little "oh, hey guys. I'm someone who matters and is holding a really big sword. If I weren't such a douche I might decide to tell some even more important people, and that might be quite a lot of trouble for you. Maybe you should rethink you afternoon plans."

No. Instead he hands your cousin and your fiance a pretty pitiful sword and crossbow and tells *them* to go save you. Somehow, I'm supposed to be all grateful to him for conscripting me afterwards or something.

What.

And then I'm supposed to talk to this guy and take orders from this guy and talk to Alistair about this guy without ever saying "Oh, yeah. Duncan. He's the one who let some dudes rape my cousin and murder my bridesmaid when he totally could have stopped them with little effort on his part and probably no negative reprocussions."

Again I say: What?

[Warden Commander David]

Wow...really?

I only play the same origin...so I don't know anything about the other origin stories.

I know there are some sad stories with rape involved...such as Zathrian and Lanaya's stories...but I can't believe they put something like that in so explicitly for an origin story.

I'm like you...I don't need my video games to go there.

Modifié par Warden Commander David, 13 mars 2013 - 02:20 .

[CDR David Shepard]

............

Modifié par CDR David Shepard, 13 mars 2013 - 02:09 .

[Brake 69]

I agree. The City Elf Origin story is by far, the worst in the game.

It would have been better to have Bann Vaughan appear with his drunken companions to cut down the Vhenadahl Tree and instigate a riot and then take City Elf hostages who then require rescue or escape.

[Face of Evil]

Without Duncan's intervention, the City Elf Warden is killed and Soris was put in a dungeon, so don't totally dismiss that crappy crossbow and sword. Also, by conscripting you, he does save you from what would probably be an execution.

From a purely objective standpoint, I can appreciate Duncan's non-committal stance in this matter. It's not the Grey Wardens' job to mete out justice to rapists; their charge is to protect Thedas from the darkspawn. Breaking into the Arl of Denerim's estate and killing a well-connected noble's son for the sake of a few elves doesn't help that cause.

On the other hand, just giving the CE Warden a set of weapons, either directly or through Soris, can only benefit him n the end. If the CE Warden survives, they'll have demonstrated their potential and Duncan nets a promising recruit. If they fail, then all Duncan has lost is a couple of old weapons and even scored some brownie points with the elves. Win-win for him.

Is it a tad ruthless? Sure. But what do you expect? He's a Grey Warden, not a saint.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 15 mars 2013 - 09:33 .

[JorieSilver]

I wouldn't have expected him to break into the palace after the fact--that is not, in fact, his job.

Which I would have been fine with if he was not physically present at the time of the abduction. It's not unreasonable to expect that a person with power and influence might make his presence known in that sort of situation--a crime like Vaughan's is only possible when their are no witnesses that hold weight in the world in which he operates. Duncan is such a person, yet he decides to remain silent--and thus becomes complicit in the crime.

Without Duncan's inaction, the entire question of rescue becomes moot--because nobody ever gets abducted, nobody gets raped, and nobody gets murdered. The Arl is probably even +1 in the offspring count in the end, because bad-ass pre-Warden city elf doesn't have much of a reason to gut him like a fish.

I can think of two reasons Duncan would refuse to step forward in that situation: first, he cares more about Vaughan's arguably insignificant opinion of him (nobody seems to be too worried about him rotting in a dungeon for months) than he does the lives and well-being of *several* innocent women. Second, he knows the Tabris kid is a potential Grey Warden recruit, and thinks it would be a nice test to watch him/her either stage a rescue or attempt an escape. Both of these motivations place Duncan in the "pretty terrible person" category in my book.

[Face of Evil]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Which I would have been fine with if he was not physically present at the time of the abduction. It's not unreasonable to expect that a person with power and influence might make his presence known in that sort of situation--a crime like Vaughan's is only possible when their are no witnesses that hold weight in the world in which he operates. Duncan is such a person, yet he decides to remain silent--and thus becomes complicit in the crime.

For interest's sake, you might want to consider playing the male side of the CE origin. You can actually bring up the possibility of Duncan going to the city guard and launching a complaint. The suggestion is shot down because, Grey Warden or no, the guard does not care about a bunch of knife-ears being dragged off to a rape party. 

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

I can think of two reasons Duncan would refuse to step forward in that situation: first, he cares more about Vaughan's arguably insignificant opinion of him (nobody seems to be too worried about him rotting in a dungeon for months) than he does the lives and well-being of *several* innocent women. Second, he knows the Tabris kid is a potential Grey Warden recruit, and thinks it would be a nice test to watch him/her either stage a rescue or attempt an escape. Both of these motivations place Duncan in the "pretty terrible person" category in my book.

It's more likely that he gives a s**t about the opinion of Vaughan's fairly powerful father, who he describes as being "no friend to the Order." (Of course, said father dies at Ostagar or gets assassinated by Howe. Hindsight is 20/20, yuk yuk.)

But as I said above and with which you seemingly agree, it's more likely he considers this a worthwhile test of his promising young recruit. That, too, becomes more clear if you play a male City Elf, as you can blatantly ask Duncan if he intends to recruit you after this whole mess is over. His answer basically amounts to "We'll talk more when you get back."

So yeah, Duncan does a horrible thing and is kind of a horrible person. So what? Again, his actions are totally within the boundaries of his mandate as a Grey Warden. Given that his actions ultimately save Ferelden from the Blight, one could say he performed his duties perfectly. The higher-ups within the organization would likely have given him a medal.

If it sounds like I'm defending the CE Origin, that's because I am. It's still my favourite of the six.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 15 mars 2013 - 11:21 .

[JorieSilver]

From my perspective, it seems that stopping this rape and performing his duties as a Grey Warden are completely separate issues. I get it--Duncan is a good Grey Warden. It just seems to me that in all other instances the game goes out of its way to portray him as an honorable man, and I can no longer see him as such. He commands the respect of the Keeper Marethari, Valendrian, dwarven nobility, King Cailan, Bryce Cousland, Alistair, etc. etc. But he can't be bothered to at least attempt to deter a rape in progress? This simply doesn't seem like a man that could be so universally respected to me. You are still free to enjoy the city elf origin, though. Just saying that I definitely did not.

[gds76]

He is respected because he is the head of the Grey Wardens, not because he is Duncan. Duncan is just a thief that murdered a Grey Warden and was conscripted to replace him.
Also he shows his darker side in other Origins, too. He drags a Dalish to Ostagar even if they refuse to go. He doesn't care if the dwarf noble was tricked or tried to pull a coup and failed. He also forces the Cousland into becoming a Warden. Duncan is a ******, from his origins as a criminal to his post as the head of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden. He has his own agenda. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt people, but he also doesn't go out of his way to help people (outside of Warden-business of course). He came to the alienage for a recruit, not to help random elves. He apperently saw a chance to test his prospects skills and he took it.

[Face of Evil]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

From my perspective, it seems that stopping this rape and performing his duties as a Grey Warden are completely separate issues.

Then you're not thinking like a Grey Warden.

gds76 wrote...

Also he shows his darker side in other Origins, too. He drags a Dalish to Ostagar even if they refuse to go. He doesn't care if the dwarf noble was tricked or tried to pull a coup and failed. He also forces the Cousland into becoming a Warden.

He also invokes the Right of Conscription on a Mage Warden, if they're not willing to go with him.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 17 mars 2013 - 06:53 .

[Ferretinabun]

I know where OP is coming from, and just because I want to like Duncan, I headcannoned that he wasn't actually at the wedding. He does appear before the ceremony, but he is specially respectful about not wanting to intrude. And you don't actually see him during the wedding, so I assumed he'd just retired off to one side to let the elves have their private rituals in peace. Rather than actually standing right there watching the entire kidnap drama take place and doing naff all to stop it. That WOULD make him an ass.

I don't have too much of an issue with Duncan in the mage, or Dwarven origins. Sure, he will conscript you even against your wishes, but in practically all cases he is still saving you from obvious death. The Dalish origin doesn't sit quite so easily, because it feels a bit more like Duncan is conscripting you JUST to save you, rather than because he thinks you'd genuinely make a good warden, but that's not so much of an issue,

He DOES, however, come across as an ass in the Human Noble origin. One of the main reasons that is my least played origin.

[Analander]

OK, let me start saying that I disagree with much that have been said here. I rather like Duncan, even in the light of everything that happen in all origins. I don't think of him as an honorable man, but as a pratical man. He is the ideal Grey Warden because he is the sort of person that gets the job done. That's what the Wardens need. During the magi origin, if you talk to him, he says something like "I believe we must defeat the darkspawn, one way or another. My opinion ends there." This sums up pretty well what kind of person Duncan is.

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

I wouldn't have expected him to break into the palace after the fact--that is not, in fact, his job.

Which I would have been fine with if he was not physically present at the time of the abduction. It's not unreasonable to expect that a person with power and influence might make his presence known in that sort of situation--a crime like Vaughan's is only possible when their are no witnesses that hold weight in the world in which he operates. Duncan is such a person, yet he decides to remain silent--and thus becomes complicit in the crime.

I think a lot of people make a huge mistake when analyzing the morals involved in NPC's actions/decisions. This mistake is using our set of morals and values when analyzing NPC's actions. Ferelden (and, even broader, Thedas) is based on a medievel setting. Those times were much harder: no one cared about human or women rights.

You talk about Vaughan's crime. What he did would certainly be considered a crime, and also a despicable and inexcusable act, nowadays. In medieval times, not so much. Remember Braveheart? Remember an institution called prima nocte ("first night" in latin, if I didn't spell it wrong), which allowed a lord to have sexual rights over his subjects' wives during their first night of marriage? That's how things were back then.

Now, as far as I know, Ferelden doesn't even have written law. The king's will IS the law, and probably every lord has a lot of freedom to do whatever they want to his subjects, as long as they keep loyal to whoever comes above them in the scale, be it an Arl, a Teyrn or even the King.

Naturally, the peasants, human and elves both, will only take so much abuse before they rebel. But other than a successful rebellion by elves, I can't see any punishment that the nobility would impose over Vaughan. 

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
Without Duncan's inaction, the entire question of rescue becomes moot--because nobody ever gets abducted, nobody gets raped, and nobody gets murdered. The Arl is probably even +1 in the offspring count in the end, because bad-ass pre-Warden city elf doesn't have much of a reason to gut him like a fish.

 

Any action by Duncan would be a disaster. First, the Grey Wardens are not a respect organization in Ferelden. They had been exiled from the country for a very long time, and only recently they were allowed to come back. Also, they are few in number and their past deeds and glory are mostly forgotten. They do have King Cailan's favor, but even that might not be enough to chill out the nobility's pressure if Duncan moved against one of them.

And let's not forget that Vaughan had a whole unit of men escorting him. Alone, Duncan would most likely get thrown in prison for just hinting to harm Vaughan, who is not only the Arl's son but also the ruling lord in his father's absence, if not getting himself killed.

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
I can think of two reasons Duncan would refuse to step forward in that situation: first, he cares more about Vaughan's arguably insignificant opinion of him (nobody seems to be too worried about him rotting in a dungeon for months) than he does the lives and well-being of *several* innocent women. Second, he knows the Tabris kid is a potential Grey Warden recruit, and thinks it would be a nice test to watch him/her either stage a rescue or attempt an escape. Both of these motivations place Duncan in the "pretty terrible person" category in my book.

I agree about Tabris, but Vaughan's opinion is far from insignificant. He is the Arl of Denerim's soon, he has a lot of power and influence. Nobody cares about him being imprisioned because, well, nobody knows. When Howe returns from Ostagar, he spreads the lie that Vaughan was killed during the elven riot, and uses this to become the new Arl.

Almost nobody cares about the elves except the elves themselves. In a medieval setting, the life of a peasant would never be considered equal or as important as the life of lord. Obviously, I don't agree with that kind of thinking, I'm just stating that this is how things were. Unfortunately. 

Modifié par Analander, 20 mars 2013 - 02:45 .

[Wissenschaft]

Duncan could do nothing to help the city elves. If he tried to stop the Arl's son, it would put at risk the position of the Wardens in Ferelden. Lets not forget that the Wardens just recently regain entry into Ferelden. If Duncan got into a fight with the Arl's son over anything, let alone a bunch of "mere" elves, he could have gotten the Wardens expeled and perhaps his head chopped off as well for treason.

As Analander states, the life of a peasent is nothing compared to a lord's life and the elves are valued less than even the peasents.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 20 mars 2013 - 04:22 .

[JorieSilver]

Analander wrote...

I think a lot of people make a huge mistake when analyzing the morals involved in NPC's actions/decisions. This mistake is using our set of morals and values when analyzing NPC's actions. Ferelden (and, even broader, Thedas) is based on a medievel setting. Those times were much harder: no one cared about human or women rights.

You talk about Vaughan's crime. What he did would certainly be considered a crime, and also a despicable and inexcusable act, nowadays. In medieval times, not so much. Remember Braveheart? Remember an institution called prima nocte ("first night" in latin, if I didn't spell it wrong), which allowed a lord to have sexual rights over his subjects' wives during their first night of marriage? That's how things were back then.

Now, as far as I know, Ferelden doesn't even have written law. The king's will IS the law, and probably every lord has a lot of freedom to do whatever they want to his subjects, as long as they keep loyal to whoever comes above them in the scale, be it an Arl, a Teyrn or even the King.

Naturally, the peasants, human and elves both, will only take so much abuse before they rebel. But other than a successful rebellion by elves, I can't see any punishment that the nobility would impose over Vaughan. 
 

Fair enough. I will give you that Ferelden probably didn't have written laws.

I will also point out that while Thedas is *based* on medieval Eurpoe, there's not a lot of historical accuracy there. For example, all evidence points to the fact that you, as the city elf or casteless dwarf, can read. It's really hard to keep an educated populace in the gutter.

Much of Thedas is very modern in attitude--if you hand some money to barmaid, she marries a lord! If you give a sword to a peasant boy he becomes a hero! If you want to have a small orgy with a ship captain you meet in a brothel, go for it!

Besides, women in Thedas are hardly disenfranchised--they are soldiers and rulers and ship captains and scholars and priests and templars and Keepers and Grey Wardens. Is there a power imbalance between genders? Yes. A little. Lady Cousland can't rule alone. This is the only non-rape related place in the entire plot where a female Warden is not afforded the same rights as her male counterpart. Women in Thedas may be more equal to men in many respects than women in the modern United States. Women in combat units in our military? Yeah, we don't do that. But Fereldens do.

On the other hand, I can think of a whole lot of rape. City elf origin. Lanaya. Zathrian's daughter. Berhat implies that he has raped Rica. Random Orlesian woman in the market says that Chevaliers are allowed to basically pluck women off the street. Etc.

You would think, what with all the women in positions of power, one of them somewhere would have said "you rape my sisters, you answer to *me*."

The truth is that settings like this will *always* have some kind of modern flavor, because they are written for a modern audience by modern writers. Writers pick compelling parts of their chosen framework to highlight, because those parts pack an emotional punch for their audience. Bioware *chose* to focus on racism, poverty, and religion, with a smattering of slavery towards the end (which even most of the terrible racists were horrified at). They left out sexism...but kept rampant sexual abuse and rape?

I get it. They picked rape because its horrible. Racism is horrible. Poverty is horrible. Slavery is horrible. Religion is polarizing. They are all used and manipulated to elicit an emotional response from us. (Note: mission accomplished.)

Defending Duncan because of the world he lived in is a fallacy. The world is crafted by writers--writers who, in this instance, *chose* to give freedom to women, but did not choose to give them any protection from rape. And somehow that's okay, because "it's a medieval setting, and that's things were back then!"

Newsflash: Women in Thedas are not treated the same way they were "back then." Thedas, despite its armor and longswords and thatch-roof houses, is not "back then." And I maintain that Duncan could have displayed minimal effort to attempt to diffuse the situation without incurring any penalties for the Grey Wardens, even in the framework of the inexplicably rape-saturated wold of Thedas.

You can head-canon the whole thing away if you want, but the city elf origin still made me angry, and it still made me hate Duncan.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 20 mars 2013 - 06:04 .

[TEWR]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

And then I'm supposed to talk to this guy and take orders from this guy and talk to Alistair about this guy without ever saying "Oh, yeah. Duncan. He's the one who let some dudes rape my cousin and murder my bridesmaid when he totally could have stopped them with little effort on his part and probably no negative reprocussions."

Again I say: What?

There are negative repercussions. Grey Wardens signed a Treaty of Neutrality during the 3rd Blight saying that they could not interfere in the decisions of politicians, that they were supposed to not voice their opinions on such issues if they were to maintain a presence in every nation in Thedas so that they could defeat the Darkspawn.

What do you think would've happened if Duncan had murdered the son of a noble who, as Duncan describes, is not a friend to the Order? Politically, that'd be disastrous for the Order as Vaughan's father the Arl of Denerim would have seen the Grey Wardens punished for such an act, if not exiled again completely. Ferelden's nobility would've been in an uproar about it, because the Grey Wardens would've repaid the trust King Maric gave them with murder of a noble's son -- the circumstances of it being deemed irrelevant by the nobility anyway, because the Grey Wardens would've been breaking their neutrality agreement and trust.

Not 2 centuries prior did a Grey Warden rebel against the throne of Ferelden to place herself on the throne. While you learn her act was justified because the king in question was a tyrant, that is information not known to the populus as they were simply told the Grey Wardens were ousted for rebelling against the throne -- due in large part to how many of the records of the time were destroyed in the subsequent decade. 

He does not approve of what Vaughan is doing, but his hands are tied because the Blight is the major threat he has to contend with. If it's not directly threatening him, then he cannot act. If it is directly threatening him and he acts, he cannot be held responsible for his actions. So unless Vaughan tries to kill Duncan, Duncan cannot fight the man.

Duncan did as much as he could without jeopardizing the Order's status in Ferelden by giving weapons to Soris and Nelaros. Nelaros is a blacksmith's apprentice, which says that he works around weapons. Add in how Soris describes his fighting skills and it's clear he knows how to fight. And I wouldn't call such weapons "crappy", either. Grey Wardens don't really do their job well if their weapons are crappy.

Now granted, the Warden gets politically involved all the way up to their ass in DAO, but that's looked upon not as negatively because of how near Ferelden came to destroying itself. It still caused many people to be rather unhappy with what the Warden did, but many people were also thankful for it. But it's a different situation.

The same cannot be said for Duncan if he had acted during the CE origin, because there'd be nothing to justify a breach of the Grey Wardens' neutrality in the eyes of most of Thedas. Moreover, the Grey Wardens just recently regained entry into Ferelden with many people voicing suspicions about them -- like Teyrn Loghain, for instance -- so they're treading on very thin ice and have to step delicately.

EDIT: Furthermore, even if he were to go to the authorities on the matter they wouldn't act because Thedosian society doesn't care about Elves enough to stop them from being raped. This can even be brought up in the Male CE version. Elves are seen as lesser beings, little better then slaves these days.

Analander wrote...

 is the ideal Grey Warden because he is the sort of person that gets the job done. That's what the Wardens need. During the magi origin, if you talk to him, he says something like "I believe we must defeat the darkspawn, one way or another. My opinion ends there." This sums up pretty well what kind of person Duncan is.

I don't really see him as the "ideal Grey Warden". Because if he was the ideal Grey Warden he would've talked to the Dwarves about aid in fighting the Blight when he was in Orzammar, perhaps asked Marethari's clan to spread the word of the Blight to the northern nations, would've told Alistair of what it takes to kill the Archdemon since Alistair had been a Grey Warden for 6 months now, and would've certainly told King Cailan and Loghain about just how the Wardens know it's a Blight in a secret meeting between the three of them.

That way, all of them could combat the Blight appropriately and the Teyrn would believe the necessity of the Grey Wardens. And let's not forget how he sends all of the Grey Wardens except for the raw recruits into fighting a horde instead of coming up with a contingency plan where some senior Wardens are not in the battle and can retreat if the battle goes south, wherein they could bring word elsewhere.

He says the Wardens will do whatever it takes to defeat the Darkspawn. He doesn't really live up to that. He's not a bad guy, but he's not a stellar commander either.

Warden Commander David wrote...

I'm like you...I don't need my video games to go there.

Then that just tries to whitewash away the type of world we live in by making a world not have it happen at all. I'm not defending rape at all -- I find it to be an abhorrent thing, as any sane man or woman should -- but not having rape be a part of a fictional world is just absurd because unfortunately we live in a world where rape happens. 

Where rape happened in the past and was done by the nobility.

To say it shouldn't be there because it makes people uncomfortable is absurd. It's the point of it to make you uncomfortable. It's not supposed to be comforting to see rape in a game or its implied act. People are just as much bastards as they are special. Games have done murder, theft, arson, dismemberment, etc.

All of those things are just as uncomfortable. But they're still put in there because it's simply a part of the world we live in. As is rape. We sadly live in such a world where rape happens and where rapists can and do get away with the act from time to time if not much of the time.

I will say that it will be probably really unnerving for people that have been raped for them to see such things, and I do feel bad for them to see such things because it will no doubt bring up painful memories. But to eliminate rape from a world just seems dishonest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mars 2013 - 06:53 .

[JorieSilver]

Never have I thought it might be okay for Duncan to actually kill Vaughan. But assert his presence as a witness to his crime? That is a thing Duncan could have done. If Duncan had made his presence known and Vaughan didn't back down, fine. I'll buy it. People in Thedas really hate elves and women. Whatever. Duncan didn't do that, though--he just stood there. To me, that's unforgivable. Maybe you don't think so. Fine.

Maybe you're not a little disgruntled by the sheer *amount* of rape bioware put into this game that otherwise portrays a world that is arguably more sexually free and gender-equal than our own. Fine. I actually think it removes realism by putting *so very much rape* into a world where women are regularly trained to use swords and placed into positions of power.

[NyxFTW]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

The truth is that settings like this will *always* have some kind of modern flavor, because they are written for a modern audience by modern writers. Writers pick compelling parts of their chosen framework to highlight, because those parts pack an emotional punch for their audience. Bioware *chose* to focus on racism, poverty, and religion, with a smattering of slavery towards the end (which even most of the terrible racists were horrified at). They left out sexism...but kept rampant sexual abuse and rape?

I get it. They picked rape because its horrible. Racism is horrible. Poverty is horrible. Slavery is horrible. Religion is polarizing. They are all used and manipulated to elicit an emotional response from us. (Note: mission accomplished.)

Defending Duncan because of the world he lived in is a fallacy. The world is crafted by writers--writers who, in this instance, *chose* to give freedom to women, but did not choose to give them any protection from rape. And somehow that's okay, because "it's a medieval setting, and that's things were back then!"

Newsflash: Women in Thedas are not treated the same way they were "back then." Thedas, despite its armor and longswords and thatch-roof houses, is not "back then." And I maintain that Duncan could have displayed minimal effort to attempt to diffuse the situation without incurring any penalties for the Grey Wardens, even in the framework of the inexplicably rape-saturated wold of Thedas.

You can head-canon the whole thing away if you want, but the city elf origin still made me angry, and it still made me hate Duncan.

Bioware also gave you the chance to exact revenge. They didn't exactly shelve Duncan and allow you to be raped for kicks. You let Duncan do all the work from a gameplay standpoint and you might as well just sit back and get rescued and -that'd- be a lousy origin story. But you don't. You pick up a sword and save what's left of the bridal party. It was catharsis for me---much more fulfilling than some kind of political correctness. 

Also, you keep ignoring the posts telling you A) Duncan's a Grey Warden and Duncan's a bleeding Grey Warden. If you actually paid attention to the story you'd realize that Duncan's in no position to be a white knight to Ferelden's injustices, nor should he have to. His duty is to destroy the Archdemon and pick up recruits along the way. The Grey Wardens were finally allowed into Ferelden's borders, you think Duncan's going to risk having them kicked out again for a bunch of elves? Being a Grey Warden constitutes neutrality, you only have a say when the darkspawn are involved.

[Brake 69]

No one walks into a Six family public wedding in a ghetto and nabs three brides without a fight. This could not happen in a fantasy world or in the real world. But in Dragon Age it does.

[JorieSilver]

NyxFTW wrote...

Bioware also gave you the chance to exact revenge. They didn't exactly shelve Duncan and allow you to be raped for kicks. You let Duncan do all the work from a gameplay standpoint and you might as well just sit back and get rescued and -that'd- be a lousy origin story. But you don't. You pick up a sword and save what's left of the bridal party. It was catharsis for me---much more fulfilling than some kind of political correctness. 

Also, you keep ignoring the posts telling you A) Duncan's a Grey Warden and Duncan's a bleeding Grey Warden. If you actually paid attention to the story you'd realize that Duncan's in no position to be a white knight to Ferelden's injustices, nor should he have to. His duty is to destroy the Archdemon and pick up recruits along the way. The Grey Wardens were finally allowed into Ferelden's borders, you think Duncan's going to risk having them kicked out again for a bunch of elves? Being a Grey Warden constitutes neutrality, you only have a say when the darkspawn are involved.

It is definitely more satisfying from a gaming persepctive. I'm sure that's why it happened that way. That doesn't mean that the character of Duncan, as writen, loses all culpability for his actions--despite the widespread opinion that he is an honorable man.

And I am NOT ignoring the posts telling me that "Duncan is a Grey Warden! He can't do anything because he's a Grey Warden! Grey Wardens *have* to be terrible people BECAUSE THE BLIGHT."

I'm not ignoring these people: I'm just saying they're wrong. Nobody was going to kick the Grey Wardens out of Ferelden with Darkspawn massing in the south just because Duncan told a spoiled ****** not to rape a few elves.

Turns out, getting the Grey Wardens out of Ferelden required a massive conspiracy, a crippled army, and a dead king. If it was as easy as getting one lord pissed off at the Wardens, Logain wouldn't have had to sacrifice half of Ferelden's soldiers to do it.

[Analander]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Defending Duncan because of the world he lived in is a fallacy. The world is crafted by writers--writers who, in this instance, *chose* to give freedom to women, but did not choose to give them any protection from rape. And somehow that's okay, because "it's a medieval setting, and that's things were back then!"

Newsflash: Women in Thedas are not treated the same way they were "back then." Thedas, despite its armor and longswords and thatch-roof houses, is not "back then." And I maintain that Duncan could have displayed minimal effort to attempt to diffuse the situation without incurring any penalties for the Grey Wardens, even in the framework of the inexplicably rape-saturated wold of Thedas.

It is not a fallacy. Whether we like it or not, the world we live in shape us, at least to some extent. I have to agree that Thedas offers much more gender equality than your average european medieval country, but it is still a world with rampant crime, not just raping, but with a lot of murder and thievery as well. And a tough world makes for tough people. As Stalin once said (not a fan of his, not in the slightest, but I have to hand it to him in this one): "one death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic".

So, let me get this right. Vaughan went to the alianage escorted by an entire unit of men, probably part of the city militia. They are the law enforcement officers, but they did nothing. The alienage houses thousands of elves, but when Vaughan abducted THEIR women on broad day light, no one lifted a finger. All the humans in Denerim know that the elves in the city are treated like garbage, but no one cares.

So, you want me to believe that all of the above is okay, but if Duncan does nothing than he is "OMG DAH EVIL"? Sorry, but I don't buy it. Who was in the best position to avoid what happened? It certainly wasn't Duncan.

Also diagree that, in order to be a good Grey Warden, you have to be a terrible person. Grey Wardens learn very fast the meaning of sacrifice. They often have to recruit criminals against their will because, well, almost nobody else wants to do what they have to do. Duncan carries a huge burden, the duty of defeating the Blight, and has very little resources to do that. Yet, he doesn't complain. Now, in addition to that, you expect him to solve every single injustice that shows up in his way, or otherwise he's a terrible person? No, just no. 

[ejoslin]

Analander wrote...


I think a lot of people make a huge mistake when analyzing the morals involved in NPC's actions/decisions. This mistake is using our set of morals and values when analyzing NPC's actions. Ferelden (and, even broader, Thedas) is based on a medievel setting. Those times were much harder: no one cared about human or women rights.

You talk about Vaughan's crime. What he did would certainly be considered a crime, and also a despicable and inexcusable act, nowadays. In medieval times, not so much. Remember Braveheart? Remember an institution called prima nocte ("first night" in latin, if I didn't spell it wrong), which allowed a lord to have sexual rights over his subjects' wives during their first night of marriage? That's how things were back then.

Now, as far as I know, Ferelden doesn't even have written law. The king's will IS the law, and probably every lord has a lot of freedom to do whatever they want to his subjects, as long as they keep loyal to whoever comes above them in the scale, be it an Arl, a Teyrn or even the King.

Naturally, the peasants, human and elves both, will only take so much abuse before they rebel. But other than a successful rebellion by elves, I can't see any punishment that the nobility would impose over Vaughan. 

Just as a note -- the movie Braveheart is not a good source to quote regarding history. The movie is fiction in just about every aspect. William Wallace did exist at the same time Robert the Bruce did and England was making war on Scotland. I'm not sure if anything else in that movie is accurate. And that includes the concept of Jus Primae Noctis.  Not saying rape of brides never happened, but certainly not as official policy.  There is no trustworthy source that has ever cited that, and something like that WOULD have been because it is heinous to all the commoners.

Anyway, yeh, the CE origin is rape-y. And yeh, Duncan should have at least said something. But his saying something also could have had the effect of starting a riot and making things worse so who know.

Edit: And with a church run by women and with a woman divine, I'm fairly sure women would not be looked upon the same as in our history.

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 mars 2013 - 12:35 .

[NyxFTW]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

It is definitely more satisfying from a gaming persepctive. I'm sure that's why it happened that way. That doesn't mean that the character of Duncan, as writen, loses all culpability for his actions--despite the widespread opinion that he is an honorable man.

And I am NOT ignoring the posts telling me that "Duncan is a Grey Warden! He can't do anything because he's a Grey Warden! Grey Wardens *have* to be terrible people BECAUSE THE BLIGHT."

I'm not ignoring these people: I'm just saying they're wrong. Nobody was going to kick the Grey Wardens out of Ferelden with Darkspawn massing in the south just because Duncan told a spoiled ****** not to rape a few elves.

Turns out, getting the Grey Wardens out of Ferelden required a massive conspiracy, a crippled army, and a dead king. If it was as easy as getting one lord pissed off at the Wardens, Logain wouldn't have had to sacrifice half of Ferelden's soldiers to do it.

Who said he was an honorable man? Alistair? That's an in-game bias perspective. Duncan has been known to give harsh ultimatums for almost every origin. Cousland? You're forced to leave your parents in a seige to become a Grey Warden. If you're a mage you get conscripted whether you wanted to face the consequences or not. As a Dalish Elf, you're forced to leave your clan whether you wanted to or not. Duncan is determined as a Grey Warden and it's his polite demeanor that throws you off. It's absolutely ingenious the way he goes about it.

And they're not wrong. Duncan is a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens do whatever it takes to destroy the darkspawn. That is why they're both feared and respected with every species. He didn't have to save your City Elf, in fact, if he wasn't interested in you he'd probably be on his way. Ferelden isn't an idyllic land of opportunity. A few things have been tweaked, sure, but crime and evil still happens there. Duncan wasn't branded to be a white knight or some sort of Batman trying to right wrongs wherever he goes. That's not his job and it -shouldn't- be his job.

I think you should be reading the extra material that fleshes out Thedas. Because even in the game it's been hinted many times that no one in Ferelden wanted the Grey Wardens around. If Cailan wasn't so starry-eyed over them, they would have still been turned away at the border. Duncan, heading the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, isn't going to cause a political incident over a few elves. You need to understand this. I wouldn't either if I was in his shoes. Not with the darkspawn accumulating in the south. You're going to have to deal with the implications that Grey Wardens aren't these super goodie heroes doing wonderful things. They're an order of mostly renegades on borrowed time in order to get an edge over the Blight.

[JorieSilver]

NyxFTW wrote...

Who said he was an honorable man? Alistair? That's an in-game bias perspective. Duncan has been known to give harsh ultimatums for almost every origin. Cousland? You're forced to leave your parents in a seige to become a Grey Warden. If you're a mage you get conscripted whether you wanted to face the consequences or not. As a Dalish Elf, you're forced to leave your clan whether you wanted to or not. Duncan is determined as a Grey Warden and it's his polite demeanor that throws you off. It's absolutely ingenious the way he goes about it.

And they're not wrong. Duncan is a Grey Warden. Grey Wardens do whatever it takes to destroy the darkspawn. That is why they're both feared and respected with every species. He didn't have to save your City Elf, in fact, if he wasn't interested in you he'd probably be on his way. Ferelden isn't an idyllic land of opportunity. A few things have been tweaked, sure, but crime and evil still happens there. Duncan wasn't branded to be a white knight or some sort of Batman trying to right wrongs wherever he goes. That's not his job and it -shouldn't- be his job.

I think you should be reading the extra material that fleshes out Thedas. Because even in the game it's been hinted many times that no one in Ferelden wanted the Grey Wardens around. If Cailan wasn't so starry-eyed over them, they would have still been turned away at the border. Duncan, heading the Grey Wardens in Ferelden, isn't going to cause a political incident over a few elves. You need to understand this. I wouldn't either if I was in his shoes. Not with the darkspawn accumulating in the south. You're going to have to deal with the implications that Grey Wardens aren't these super goodie heroes doing wonderful things. They're an order of mostly renegades on borrowed time in order to get an edge over the Blight.

Lots of people said he was an honorable man: Valendrian. Irving. Marethari. Papa Cous-Cous. Lots. (I think I said this earlier in the thread.) *

Obviously, you and I have different opinions about what can and cannot be casually thrown around in video games. This is fine. 

I felt like I had to say something about this--I feel strongly that rape is treated too lightly in a lot of modern "dark fantasy." (I think we can probably at least partially blame George RR Martin for this.) Rape is also highly gendered--most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men. The city-elf origin was written by a man (Daniel Erickson, at least according to the wiki). Most gamers are men. Hell, most consumers of non-vampire-romance-related fantasy in general are men.

What's that internet word for something that makes you feel icky? Squick. (I think. Someone correct me if my usage is wrong.) It squicks me out that this is true, that so many men write stories for men in which men rape women left and right--all in the name of some much sought-after "gritty realism".

I think *you* should play through the city-elf origin as a female PC. It'll take you less time and cost you less money than it would for me to go pick up a book I have little interest in and read it. It's emotional to play Knight-In-Shining-Armor and rescue yo' women from the big bad human dude. It's different to play the sexually-harrassed and foricbly-kidnapped avenging victim.

It's not just in the city elf origin, either. Everyone remember the brood mother? Sure, dudes get tortured and eaten, but the women get literally robbed of their humanity (or elf-ness or dwarf-itude or whatever). They are repeatedly violated, made to *eat* their male comrades, and turned into a giant mass of boob so they can live out their days as a mindless dark-spawner. Why? Because they have a vagina. 

Then what happens? A whole bunch of (mostly male) gamers go "eeewwwwww, look how gross it is!"

It's excessive. 

Again, I really just felt like I had to say something. The whole business made me feel icky and angry, and I have not seen a lot of other people say so. I'm done now. I will get off my high-horse so I can finish watching some late-night LotR (and maybe stop procrastinating).

*EDIT: Not to mention the way he dies. If the game didn't want you to feel sad, they wouldn't have done all the eye-ball zooming and sad-music playing as he was beheaded by the big bad darkspawn. Deny it all you want: Bioware wants you to like Duncan. After playing the city elf origin, I didn't.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 21 mars 2013 - 07:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Saying a man is honourable doesn't mean he's altruistic. Duncan doesn't exactly stick out his neck for any of the Origin PCs without an ulterior motive, though IMO that's done deliberately to push the game forward and not have a 'GAME OVER' screen when the PC refuses to join.

Also, he straight up knifes Jory when the guy changes his mind about the Joining. Or is first degree murder more palatable than what happens in the alienage?

Anyway, Dragon Age has it faults in the realms of male/female victim equity, but I don't think overusing rape or violence against women as a theme is one of them yet. As icky and angering as the broodmothers are, I get more upset about Shianni.

No matter what you do, you can't save her.

And then the Guardian in the Gauntlet has the colossal gall to imply it was the CE's fault Shianni got raped.

But that said, the CE Origin remains one of my favourites.

[JorieSilver]

Yeah, what he does to Jory sucks too. I am guilty of giving him a pass for murder based on traditions of his order. Perhaps it is inconsistent of me to do so.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

As icky and angering as the broodmothers are, I get more upset about Shianni.

But part of that is Bioware *wanting* you to be more upset about Shianni. Shianni is your adorably drunk cousin. The Broodmother is...the broodmother.

Her name is Laryn, I think. It is briefly mentioned.

No one is looking for her back in Orzammar. You never meet her or her family or her friends. She is not a character. Shianni is. You meet her, you talk to her, you *feel* for her. Laryn is a name, not a character. It doesn't elicit the same emotional response.

No, Bioware wants you to be briefly horrified by the idea of the broodmother, then grossed out by her appearance, and then triumphant at her defeat. If somehow Rica ended up in the Deep Roads and became a broodmother that you had to kill, we'd be having a very different conversation.