163 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

No, that's not what I meant. The broodmother's situation is horrible and repugnant, and it was meant to be, but there's nothing you can do about it. It happened way before you entered the picture and all you can do is end her misery.

What I was getting at was that Shianni's rape could have been realistically averted, but it's not to make for a more dramatic story (most Origins are guilty of this in some way. Eg. A dwarven noble can't call talk to Trian about Bhelen before the expedition). And not only that, like I said, her rape is tacitly blamed on you later on the game.

But I don't hate the rape story in the CE Origin, and this is one of the reasons why:

I like Shianni not due to her being your adorable drunken cousin, but because later in the game she proves that being raped hasn't destroyed her. She's trying to stop the Tevinter slavers because she thinks they're up to no good. Hell, she organises her people to pick up weapons and defend the alienage when the darkspawn arrive. She can become the hahren and the advocate for the Denerim elves. And she's a normal non-'hero' young girl who's had terrible things done to her. Shianni's freakin' awesome! The vast majority of writers would have just shelved her as a broken woman in need of being 'fixed' after her ordeal.

[TEWR]

Her name is Laryn, I think. It is briefly mentioned.

No one is looking for her back in Orzammar. You never meet her or her family or her friends.

That's because she was part of Branka's house. Branka took her entire house -- save for Oghren -- on an expedition to recover the Anvil of the Void. Laryn and her family were a part of the group that ascended with Branka, probably stemming from Oghren's side of the family.

When they got to the Anvil of the Void, Branka wanted them all to try and disable Caridin's traps. When they saw that they would more then likely die, the rest of her House fled into the Deep Roads, Laryn included. And then they came back to Branka tainted, wherein there wasn't much she could do.

I mean, she could've killed them, but she thought having a Darkspawn factory would allow her to use them to overwhelm Caridin's defenses. Only flaw in that plan -- and I'm unsure if she would've even had a way to deal with it -- is that there's no guarantee that the Darkspawn wouldn't overwhelm the Anvil itself.

[dragonflight288]

NyxFTW wrote....

If Cailan wasn't so starry-eyed over them, they would have still been turned away at the border.

Not entirely true. It was Maric who brought the Wardens back into Ferelden.

[JorieSilver]

Shadow of Light Dragon, I didn't get to the part where someone pins the blame for Shianni's rape on you--that's terrible. I really never thought about the "I could have saved her" factor. That is pretty powerful. I also really didn't mean to diminish Shianni's arc or strength of character: I'm with you. Shianni is great. I still didn't like the origin on the whole, but I really do like Shianni.

Ethereal Writer Redux--
I get why, from a narrative perspective, we didn't see Laryn's family in Orzammar. I'm just saying that we as the player would have gotten some extra reminder that she was a *person* before she was a broodmother. It didn't happen. But the fact remains that it was a pretty terrible fate for a *person*--a fate that was specifically reserved for people with vaginas. In-game, Bioware gives you that super-creepy lead-up, and then a super fun boss fight. It was fun and gross, but not presented in a way that left you with a lasting impression of the *person* who has "become the beast."

[Dio Demon]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

Ethereal Writer Redux--
I get why, from a narrative perspective, we didn't see Laryn's family in Orzammar. I'm just saying that we as the player would have gotten some extra reminder that she was a *person* before she was a broodmother. It didn't happen. But the fact remains that it was a pretty terrible fate for a *person*--a fate that was specifically reserved for people with vaginas. In-game, Bioware gives you that super-creepy lead-up, and then a super fun boss fight. It was fun and gross, but not presented in a way that left you with a lasting impression of the *person* who has "become the beast."

Well that's you're opinion, in my opinion. When I think about the deep roads or even do another playthrough it gives me the heeby jeebies. I can still remember the first thing I said when I saw the Broodmother for the first time it was 'Holy C***, WHAT. IS. THAT!?

But the fact that you don't see Laryn or Laryn's family in Orzammar conveys the message that it can happen to anyone it is not just reserved for 'special' people, by not giving a face to Laryn you effectively allow people to picture anyone in Laryn's shoes which empower the first encounter with one.

[metatheurgist]

I don't think honorable is the same thing as moral. Many villains are described as being honorable but are definitely not moral.

It would have been moral for Duncan to step in but not necessarily honorable (unless he had given an undertaking to protect the virtue of all maidens in his presence).

A subject that is close to the discussion is "honor" killings. I certainly don't consider those to be moral but to the cultures that practice it, it is the right and proper conduct.

[emeraldtrader]

in my DAO universe,the reason Duncan did not take up arms during my CE story is that his actions (or that of anyone's) would do more harm then good. it would end in a slaughter. And later in that story it does (so to speak) as the Alienage is purged.
He (Duncan) did lend aid in the manor of giving weapons to those who had none only because Nelaros "looses it" on those who wanted to hope for the best.

[Sifr]

metatheurgist wrote...

I don't think honorable is the same thing as moral. Many villains are described as being honorable but are definitely not moral.

It would have been moral for Duncan to step in but not necessarily honorable (unless he had given an undertaking to protect the virtue of all maidens in his presence).

A subject that is close to the discussion is "honor" killings. I certainly don't consider those to be moral but to the cultures that practice it, it is the right and proper conduct.

Exactly, everyone says Duncan is "honourable". At no point did anyone say he was good!

Duncan's a pragmatic man. Saving Shianni and the other women had nothing to do with him, his mission to find recruits or stopping the Blight. Why risk turning more people against the Wardens by taking up arms against an Arl's son? He is honour bound to do nothing!

But, at the same time, he can lend a sword and a crossbow to those who have already expressed the desire to fight, because they would have done so even without his aid! He knows that they have very little chance in succeeding in their mission, so he's doing the honourable thing by giving them a small fighting chance.

He's a shrewd man.

He suspects that the Male City Elf could infiltrate the estate and the Female City Elf could break free from her captors, both of which are true. This is essentially a trial-by-fire. If they succeed, he knows he's got two highly skilled and capable individials he can use against the darkspawn, hence why he recruits them.

After all, a Grey Warden is meant to be fearless and face down an entire horde. By leaving a river of blood running through the entire palace, they've proven they've got the nerve that's required. This is the reason he killed Ser Jory, as cowardice has no place in the Order.

Don't get me wrong, Duncan's an ass in this Origin story, but he's very much in-character.

[Wulfram]

Duncan's a shem, what do you expect? That he actually care about a bunch of knife ears from the alienage?

[K_Tabris]

As a Grey Warden, Duncan is supposed to stay neutral. He couldn't have walked up to drunk Lord Vaughn and co. to tell them to behave any more than he could prevent the Dwarf commoner's arrest, or intercede in Cousland-Howe politics.

Duncan's not a jerk, he is just 100% loyal to the Grey Warden cause.

[JorieSilver]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

As a Grey Warden, Duncan is supposed to stay neutral. He couldn't have walked up to drunk Lord Vaughn and co. to tell them to behave any more than he could prevent the Dwarf commoner's arrest, or intercede in Cousland-Howe politics.

Duncan's not a jerk, he is just 100% loyal to the Grey Warden cause.

But Duncan *did* tell off the dwarves for arresting the Dwarf Commoner. He does that whole "except as your champion" bit. He doesn't do anything like that during the city elf origin. 

[Albistein]

True...

He recruits an elf who has murdered the arl's son, 2 nobles and about 30 soldiers (half of them probably totally innocent [except for badmouthing the elf servants a little]) but seem's to shy away off frightening the coward Vaughan a little.

[Bhryaen]

UndergoingMitosis (hilarious name, even without talk of broodmothers) has made so many good points and so well. Just sayin'.

I swear it's like being in Redcliffe hearing Sten and Morrigan lecture me that saving the village is a waste of time because we're just supposed to fight darkspawn. No, in fact, we do tons of side-quests, Sten- sword ring a bell?- and Duncan could've gotten 50XP for just confronting Vaughan in the Say At Least Something To Stop Your Promising Recruit and Others from Being Raped Quest. One needn't be a white knight to want 50XP. You'd have to actually want the rapes to happen to resist.

Needless to say I had the same reaction regarding Duncan after first playing the city elf origin- even as a male elf, though I just finished my female city elf game a few days ago. If I remember correctly you go talk to Duncan, then walk directly to the wedding ceremony on the nearby stage, so Duncan was right there. He doesn't have to intervene as a Gray Warden either. Why not... because he's a bystander who can't abide it? Ah, but what a good test for the potential recruit. If she survives, he can conscript her! I'll send her a sword and crossbow- hope they make it. If not... *shrug* Always the Dalish... Grr. But my city elf would've made a great recruit even if Duncan had deprived her of the "opportunity" of being raped, maybe killed, or killing the entire arl estate's soldiery and nobles. He could've just asked. She didn't want to be married and was looking for a way out.

But I know- the story wouldn't have happened. There would've been no compulsory reason for recruitment. The best stories don't require making excuses for poor writing, however. The events move compellingly and convincingly from one event to the next. Probably if they'd have had Duncan attempt to intervene and Vaughan's two accomplices draw swords and take swings, forcing Duncan to acquiesce, at least then we might have a Duncan who deserves Alistair's weeping and Valendrian's praises- and, yes, a hero's death.

And, no, making it a semantics game about "honor" doesn't address the point. There is even "honor rape" in some Islamic nations. Whatever you call it, you demonstrate it when you at least make a sincere effort to stop atrocity in your midst. Did Duncan have to? Why does he need to have to? Mitosis' points about Duncan portrayed as a hero are entirely valid. But the various origin writers do seem to have written him differently. The city elf writer didn't require him to make a peep in protest.

For all the talk of the Warden's walking on eggshells and getting no respect, Duncan recruits away numerous serious offenders in the origins right out of the hands of the authorities. No dwarf guardsman retorts, "Screw your useless 'Warden Rights of Conscription!' This Duster just offed soldier caste members in the Provings, and there's a chopping block waiting for her head!" Pops berates your hunan Warden if you speak ill of the GWs. Gregoir just lets a blood mage accomplice walk free after being driven unconscious by a trainee? Even remote Dalish clans recognize Warden authority to abduct their clansfolk. And my city elfs slaughter everyone in the estate of the Arl of Denerim himself. "Oh, well, this ponytail earring guy says he's one of those Warden folks, so I guess it doesn't matter that this was the arl's very son. Wardens above family- that's what the arl always says." Not to mention the treaties that somehow command respect from everyone. Not a single, "Nice treaties. They'd be most useful in the lavatory." That's power. But Duncan isn't written to say anything to Vaughan. Not even a "Um... That's not nice... Is it?"

The only counterpoint worth making is that rape is, after all, "only" one of numerous crimes going on in Thedas. Bloody altars make Haven anything but, and murder does result in death- a bit harsher a crime- though the preponderance of woman-victim/ man-perpetrator rape is notable, if a regular bias in crime reporting in the real world as well. Male rape victims don't count. (News of Chantry priests molesting young boys barely makes the front page, what with everyone lauding the Chantry for the new Urn of Sacred Ashes visits.) Howe murders... well, everyone you've ever known but bro, and exception is taken for Vaughan? Why didn't Duncan kill some Howe soldiers, try to ensure his human promising recruit survived- or, like, anyone? Did he just stand there during that slaughter too? Never did that origin much, so I don't recall so well, but I think he may have jeopardized the fragile status of law-stopping Gray Wardens there by interfering to help Pops get to the pantry.

That said, I can't stand Shianni. Well, the character I like, but the voice actress doesn't sound the part at all- way more frail and shallow than the lines convey, grates on my ears. (Leliana is the opposite- lovely voice actress, but annoying character.) Otherwise, yeah, why can't we save her? Why insist on writing the rape happening no matter what we do- whether we behead Vaughan or take his bribe? Ah, well. I do like that she bounces back and becomes the outspoken hero of the alienage. So, naturally, she gets killed by a racist in the end slides no matter what we do...

*sigh* I still enjoy slaughtering the arl's racist estate, so I still find the city elf origin 2nd best (just below Dusters). Duncan'll save me from the gallows even if i cleave that malevolent clown-suit's head clean off, so...

[GeminiParadox]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

I felt like I had to say something about this--I feel strongly that rape is treated too lightly in a lot of modern "dark fantasy." (I think we can probably at least partially blame George RR Martin for this.) Rape is also highly gendered--most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men. The city-elf origin was written by a man (Daniel Erickson, at least according to the wiki). Most gamers are men. Hell, most consumers of non-vampire-romance-related fantasy in general are men.

What's that internet word for something that makes you feel icky? Squick. (I think. Someone correct me if my usage is wrong.) It squicks me out that this is true, that so many men write stories for men in which men rape women left and right--all in the name of some much sought-after "gritty realism".

Personally, I liked playing through the City Elf origin because it was emotionally powerful and showed how terrible the circumstances of elves in Ferelden are.

But I agree with OP that rape is overused in modern dark fantasy. It's one thing to portray the harsh realities of life, which I think Bioware does pretty well overall. It's quite another thing when you notice a pattern of rape and sexual abuse of women that pops up in a lot of fiction. I don't think it's always glorified. Shianni's rape seemed intended to provoke sympathy, not enjoyment, on the part of the player. The writers no doubt wanted to portray the inequality that the city elves lived with, but for whatever reason, male writers seem to resort to rape of women as a plot device.

[BlazingSpeed]

Analander wrote...

OK, let me start saying that I disagree with much that have been said here. I rather like Duncan, even in the light of everything that happen in all origins. I don't think of him as an honorable man, but as a pratical man. He is the ideal Grey Warden because he is the sort of person that gets the job done. That's what the Wardens need. During the magi origin, if you talk to him, he says something like "I believe we must defeat the darkspawn, one way or another. My opinion ends there." This sums up pretty well what kind of person Duncan is.

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

I wouldn't have expected him to break into the palace after the fact--that is not, in fact, his job.

Which I would have been fine with if he was not physically present at the time of the abduction. It's not unreasonable to expect that a person with power and influence might make his presence known in that sort of situation--a crime like Vaughan's is only possible when their are no witnesses that hold weight in the world in which he operates. Duncan is such a person, yet he decides to remain silent--and thus becomes complicit in the crime.

I think a lot of people make a huge mistake when analyzing the morals involved in NPC's actions/decisions. This mistake is using our set of morals and values when analyzing NPC's actions. Ferelden (and, even broader, Thedas) is based on a medievel setting. Those times were much harder: no one cared about human or women rights.

You talk about Vaughan's crime. What he did would certainly be considered a crime, and also a despicable and inexcusable act, nowadays. In medieval times, not so much. Remember Braveheart? Remember an institution called prima nocte ("first night" in latin, if I didn't spell it wrong), which allowed a lord to have sexual rights over his subjects' wives during their first night of marriage? That's how things were back then.

Now, as far as I know, Ferelden doesn't even have written law. The king's will IS the law, and probably every lord has a lot of freedom to do whatever they want to his subjects, as long as they keep loyal to whoever comes above them in the scale, be it an Arl, a Teyrn or even the King.

Naturally, the peasants, human and elves both, will only take so much abuse before they rebel. But other than a successful rebellion by elves, I can't see any punishment that the nobility would impose over Vaughan. 

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
Without Duncan's inaction, the entire question of rescue becomes moot--because nobody ever gets abducted, nobody gets raped, and nobody gets murdered. The Arl is probably even +1 in the offspring count in the end, because bad-ass pre-Warden city elf doesn't have much of a reason to gut him like a fish.

 

Any action by Duncan would be a disaster. First, the Grey Wardens are not a respect organization in Ferelden. They had been exiled from the country for a very long time, and only recently they were allowed to come back. Also, they are few in number and their past deeds and glory are mostly forgotten. They do have King Cailan's favor, but even that might not be enough to chill out the nobility's pressure if Duncan moved against one of them.

And let's not forget that Vaughan had a whole unit of men escorting him. Alone, Duncan would most likely get thrown in prison for just hinting to harm Vaughan, who is not only the Arl's son but also the ruling lord in his father's absence, if not getting himself killed.

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
I can think of two reasons Duncan would refuse to step forward in that situation: first, he cares more about Vaughan's arguably insignificant opinion of him (nobody seems to be too worried about him rotting in a dungeon for months) than he does the lives and well-being of *several* innocent women. Second, he knows the Tabris kid is a potential Grey Warden recruit, and thinks it would be a nice test to watch him/her either stage a rescue or attempt an escape. Both of these motivations place Duncan in the "pretty terrible person" category in my book.

I agree about Tabris, but Vaughan's opinion is far from insignificant. He is the Arl of Denerim's soon, he has a lot of power and influence. Nobody cares about him being imprisioned because, well, nobody knows. When Howe returns from Ostagar, he spreads the lie that Vaughan was killed during the elven riot, and uses this to become the new Arl.

Almost nobody cares about the elves except the elves themselves. In a medieval setting, the life of a peasant would never be considered equal or as important as the life of lord. Obviously, I don't agree with that kind of thinking, I'm just stating that this is how things were. Unfortunately. 

I couldn't have said it better life was definately different back then same with Duncan he is not a nice person but a pratical one and as a Grey Warden very difficult choices must be made.

It's already a hell of a burden being a Grey Warden in times of war and times of peace as Sophia Dryden found out.

Add the fact that the Wardens were just recently allowed back into the country even if Duncan were at the wedding it's not his place to interfere. As a male city elf I tried to ask Duncan to tell the city guards and was shot down because as my CE had discovered while walking around and talking to people life as a city elf sucks and no one cares.

Not even the Chantry seems to care since the sister at the wedding didn't run over to that Templar Commander by the Redcliff estate and tell him what Vaughan did either and the Chantry has serious power in Thedas the Chantry Mother stopped Loghian's attempt at a coup at the landsmeet in it's tracks with a few words.

Nope, the Chantry sister from the wedding just shook her head and went home to pray to the maker or something but I don't see anyone here calling her out for not even saying anything.

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 13 avril 2013 - 01:49 .

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm a guy, and my first playthrough has been as a female city elf. And I have to say, I agree with the OP. I don't feel particularly "indebted" to Duncan. Watching him kill Ser Jory later on didn't endear me to him either. I imagine this attitude will color any future playthroughs - and provided he makes an appearance, I intend to kill Vaughan every single time, regardless of the origin I play or the context in which he appears.

I agree it's territory they probably didn't need to go into, but it gave a taste early on of the limits they were willing to press. Hell, I just ran across an impoverished dwarf woman in Orzammar where there was an option to convince her to abandon her illegitimate baby in the deep roads.

Jesus Christ.

Long story short, I killed Vaughan, but it sounds like they purged the Alienage anyway. I actually felt a little numb after learning that (the Alienage is locked down, I assume until later in the game). I hope there's a happy ending for Shianni somewhere in here.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 mai 2013 - 01:23 .

[thats1evildude]

Besides the aforementioned Grey Warden neutrality and Lord Vaughan's rule-screwing connections, there are two other reasons why Duncan does not ntervene:

1) Duncan is by himself, while Vaughan is accompanied by two friends and what seems to be a small squad of guardsman. Remember, even if they were all willing to fight (which they are not), the elves have no weapons except sticks and fists. Their assistance against armed guards would end in a massacre. Duncan may be so skilled that he can cut down ten men or so on his own, but I wonder.

2) The wedding was deliberately pushed ahead by Valendrian to prevent Duncan from recruiting the CE Warden. Should he prevent Vaughan from carrying off the bridal party, the wedding will continue and Valendrian can later try to talk Duncan into leaving the Alienage without a recruit, as he did with Adaia. And given that there's a Blight on the horizon …

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Long story short, I killed Vaughan, but it sounds like they purged the Alienage anyway. I actually felt a little numb after learning that (the Alienage is locked down, I assume until later in the game).

Yes, I do recall feeling somewhat numb afterwards as well. Unfortunately, the game doesn't give you much of an opportunity to express that sadness.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 mai 2013 - 07:53 .

[coldsteelblue]

gds76 wrote...

He is respected because he is the head of the Grey Wardens, not because he is Duncan. Duncan is just a thief that murdered a Grey Warden and was conscripted to replace him.
Also he shows his darker side in other Origins, too. He drags a Dalish to Ostagar even if they refuse to go. He doesn't care if the dwarf noble was tricked or tried to pull a coup and failed. He also forces the Cousland into becoming a Warden. Duncan is a ******, from his origins as a criminal to his post as the head of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden. He has his own agenda. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt people, but he also doesn't go out of his way to help people (outside of Warden-business of course). He came to the alienage for a recruit, not to help random elves. He apperently saw a chance to test his prospects skills and he took it.

Duncan is a great guy...if you do exactly what he says. You hit the nail on the head there when you said about he drags the Dalish Warden off to Ostegar, I played mine holding a bitter resentment for not even asking, if it's been a while since you saw that origin, take another look, Duncan simply says that he's taking you, even delivering the line "I will drag you kicking & screaming to Ostegar if I have to."
As for the CE origin, despite the fact I'm not a Duncan fan, I'm going to have to side with him on this one, acting through direct channles would have taken too long & more than just the CE's cousin would've been raped, they may all even have been killed & if the head of the Grey Wardens is caught sneaking through a nobleman's house then that would cause serious problems for the order, could he have done something else? Not really as he could have only invoked some sort of Grey Warden protection for the potential recruit (female) & thus left the others at Vaughn's mercy, all in all, the CE's origin is possibly the darkest.

Just my thoughts.

[Bhryaen]

The OP's point was never that Duncan should step in and kill Vaughan, his depraved cohorts, and their accompanying troupe of soldiers- and he likely could have done so single-handedly with very little trouble, as Vaughan would've suspected. The OP's point was that Duncan did nothing about it at all. Would it have been so Thedas-rattling for him to step over to the stage to at least say something in protest, try to persuade Vaughan to relent, tell him he's making a big mistake, etc.? Duncan's presence and witness likely wouldn't have changed Vaughan's mind, but the thing is, he made zero effort at all, just steps entirely out of the way so as not to impede the abduction. It's not his worst failing as a character in DAO, but it's a failing. And presumably he did want your CE to live since he came all that way during a Blight to recruit you, no? It wasn't "practical" at all to make no effort whatsoever to prevent the rape and likely death of his promising recruit (and everyone else). Practical didn't even weigh into it. Vaughan was complicating or nixing Duncan's recruitment plans, so Duncan should've stepped up at least in some way- even made a threat (intimidate check) which could've failed but still would've been backed by actually being a threat to Vaughan and company. Hell, Vaughan could've then offered Duncan a bribe, being the slime he is. But instead Duncan was a pushover from the start, a disinterested onlooker, giving Vaughan and the soldiers the sense that even the Gray Wardens condone that behavior and kowtow to the nobility, however egregious the behavior... at least when it's Alienage elves. And thus we get to see that Duncan isn't the most glorious character in the game...

Mind you, Riordan and Wynne speak of a fairly benevolence-based Gray Warden identity watching over the world as protectors. We learn from Avernus and perhaps our own Warden that this isn't necessarily true, but Duncan speaks like Riordan in the dwarf commoner origin, first telling off the Provings master right in front of countless dwarven onlookers to attempt to win forgiveness for the DC, and then telling off the dwarven guards in the DC's defense. It didn't persuade anyone and was thus "impractical" as such, but he did so- a tribute to his character. And he did this as a Gray Warden, intervening that way. It didn't stop the darkspawn to do so, but he did it anyway. And Duncan stops the DC from being executed- even the nobility-slaughtering CE from being executed- by merely invoking the hallowed Right of Conscription- something Orzammar and Denerim seem to respect above the traditions and interests of the laws of their land. He simply doesn't make the same effort when it comes to city elves and human "nobles" to prevent the rape and murder of the former. Adaia's legacy was obviously not as important to him as the unknown Duster who beats the Provings. He'll toss a sword and crossbow in afterward but can't be bothered to make a single coercion check for Adaia's promising daughter.

The "it was different back then" line was already addressed very well earlier by the OP, but I'll just add that, no, DAO's setting is not "Earth back then." It is the fictional Thedas which demonstrates tremendously more advanced social sensibilities when compared with Earth's "back then." Yes, the technology is backward (as are parts of present-day Earth, though there's no magic on Earth), and, yes, there is, say, slavery (which still exists today in some places on Earth in the "modern" world) and brutal racism (which also exists today), etc., but the social outlook of the characters in DAO is often thoroughly contemporary Earth, not "back then." Women are schooled in magic right alongside men, join soldiery and get promoted even to Ser Cauthrien's rank, There is no racism based on skin color, and we even find an elven slaver boss (very "practical") and guard. DAO would be very boring to appeal to the far less developed sensibilities of "back then" humanity (it's not exactly marketed to Dark Ages gamers) rather than the more egalitarian, anti-racist, anti-rape sensibilities of today for which the events in the CE's origin can emotionally charge up and create imperative for the present-day Earth player- "practical" or no. This is unlike appealing to the calloused humanity of old which would indeed tend to turn a blind eye to crime, and particularly when the "nobility" was involved, and would find this game far too "controversial" to play (or release... or conceive of...)

Modifié par Bhryaen, 02 mai 2013 - 02:57 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think the reason Duncan doesn't directly intervene was to see what would happen if he didn't. Essentially I think his rationale was "If I have to do any more than slip him/her a blade, (s)he's not what I'm looking for." The reason he attempts to intervene after the DC's proving is because he doesn't need any further tests afterwards; (s)he just won a Proving despite having probably no formal training. (I think the reason he does not outright conscript the PC is because he doesn't yet realize that (s)he is worth the anger this presumably draws. Then you escape from prison more-or-less on your own, and he realizes just what he has the oppurtunity to get his hands on.)

(Please note that at no point am I denying that Duncan is a complete jerk to allow all of this injustice with as little resistance as he showed. But then it might not have made a difference had he intervened, so it doesn't matter much in the end, I guess.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 mai 2013 - 12:46 .

[cJohnOne]

About killing Vaughan. Isn't it a little wrong to meta-game your chracter? I admit to doing that myself at times.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You don't need to meta-game to doubt he intends to keep his word to people he views as less than human. Especially since this puts them at least two steps below him, in his eyes.

[Bhryaen]

 

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...I think the reason Duncan doesn't directly intervene was to see what would happen if he didn't. Essentially I think his rationale was "If I have to do any more than slip him/her a blade, (s)he's not what I'm looking for."

Duncan doesn't seem to need to extend the same cruel "test" to Daveth who merely pickpocketed Duncan to "win" the infamous Warden Conscription "offer". Was it easier for Duncan to see the "worth" in a nameless cutpurse he'd never known than in the daughter/ son of his lost friend? Jory's "test" was just winning a pleasant Redcliffe tournament among peers, not exactly a life-or-death-or-rape-or-rape-and-death situation.

And what a test- failure meaning good folks get raped/ murdered. If one were to count as failure and death every attempt by CE players that requires a reload, Duncan would've consigned most of Adaia's kids to that fate for such a brutal "proving" reeking in double-standards. At least my DC "proved" herself without Duncan having been able to intercede. (He wasn't exactly going to be able to intimidate the entirety of Orzammar's caste-holding population.) I'm sure my CE would've made a fine recruit despite not having the opportunity to demonstrate her abilities against the otherwise overrhelming odds of the arl's estate's well-equipped 30-odd soldiers with mabari, and Wardens are better off with a living recruit after all. What about just taking her to the side to try some maneuvers on her, test her that way... after halting Vaughan's scumbaggery. Silently watching her be thrown to the dogs wasn't exactly the more effective alternative.

But, yeah, if Duncan were actually intentionally condoning the events so as to subject my CE to his own brand of mettle-assessment, the OP's point isn't exactly lost...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...I think the reason Duncan doesn't directly intervene was to see what would happen if he didn't. Essentially I think his rationale was "If I have to do any more than slip him/her a blade, (s)he's not what I'm looking for."

Duncan doesn't seem to need to extend the same cruel "test" to Daveth who merely pickpocketed Duncan to "win" the infamous Warden Conscription "offer". Was it easier for Duncan to see the "worth" in a nameless cutpurse he'd never known than in the daughter/ son of his lost friend? Jory's "test" was just winning a pleasant Redcliffe tournament among peers, not exactly a life-or-death-or-rape-or-rape-and-death situation.

Well, Jory hadn't severely ticked off anybody of real importance; Daveth probably hadn't either, what with being a mere pickpocket. I think Duncan wasn't expecting anybody to be pleased when he conscripted the DC or CE, and only did so because they had done things that screamed "Warden material." At that, he might still have left them to die if he didn't know damn well an Archdemon had awakened. It's stated in the loading screens in Origins that the Wardens can't always conscript someone without facing political consequences. For that matter Duncan only pushes the HN thing when he can make Cousland an offer he can't refuse.

And what a test- failure meaning good folks get raped/ murdered. If one were to count as failure and death every attempt by CE players that requires a reload, Duncan would've consigned most of Adaia's kids to that fate for such a brutal "proving" reeking in double-standards. At least my DC "proved" herself without Duncan having been able to intercede. (He wasn't exactly going to be able to intimidate the entirety of Orzammar's caste-holding population.) I'm sure my CE would've made a fine recruit despite not having the opportunity to demonstrate her abilities against the otherwise overrhelming odds of the arl's estate's well-equipped 30-odd soldiers with mabari, and Wardens are better off with a living recruit after all. What about just taking her to the side to try some maneuvers on her, test her that way... after halting Vaughan's scumbaggery. Silently watching her be thrown to the dogs wasn't exactly the more effective alternative.

Well, once she has the weapon, it's a somewhat fairer fight. It's still not even remotely fair, but it's a somewhat more realistic representation of fighting darkspawn than sparring with a Warden would be. After all, your CE is outnumbered, facing rapists, and really has no realistic hope of survival. One could say it's the perfect simulation of a Blight.

But, yeah, if Duncan were actually intentionally condoning the events so as to subject my CE to his own brand of mettle-assessment, the OP's point isn't exactly lost...

Hey, what I'm doing is trying to get into Duncan's head. I'm not saying I like what I see.

[Bhryaen]

The point I was making though was that Duncan thought of Daveth and Jory as Warden material without them really demonstrating any darkspawn-killing potential- not by simply winning a tournament or failing a pickpocket attempt. He even tells them that he wouldn't have considered recruiting them if he didn't think they stood a good chance of surviving the Joining (though given the success rate, his deductive methods may be wanting). But while he could apparently discern the potential of Daveth and Jory from a pickpocketing and a tournament- complete strangers otherwise- he requires his good friend Adaia's kid CE to endure, well, all (s)he does- if (s)he does- to merit his endorsement for worthy inductee? Surely doing some serious sparring in the alley- during which he'd have her totally outmatched but would observe her ingenuity at overcoming the gap- might reveal the CE's potential better than merely failing a pickpocket. And, mind you, all my CE's have been pickpockets who have failed on him, though the guard wasn't called on them like they were on Daveth.

So is it some prejudice vs elves on his part that he has such a miserable double-standard, requiring elves to do much more to impress him before he gives a damn? Not clear, though he does praise the last Archdemon-slayer who was an elf, so not likely. In any case the double-standard looms there conspicuously, making it unclear what rationale Duncan would use to stand aside for a drunk noble's rape party. Hell, his intervening might have impressed my CE's to want to join the Wardens even without his asking.

The most likely answer is that the writer dropped the ball on this aspect of the CE origin, but that doesn't lend Duncan any greater credibility.