163 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhryaen]

@Faerunner
Well, you answer your "but a tournament is a good test" in your next paragraph- Ser Jory still isn't GW material despite winning it... So it isn't much of a test- even though it sufficed for Duncan. And again the point I was making was- if Ser Jory (a married guy with kids who might just have other priorities) only had to win a tournament and half-heartedly offer his services in order to "pass muster" for Duncan, then why would Duncan acquiesce entirely to Vaughan as his test of the CE? Duncan's tests are demonstrably not requiring of any major effort.

And, as you say, he may have recruited Daveth simply because the pickpocket was better off trying for Wardenhood than hung for petty theft (though Daveth is a lot more promising as a recruit- would've been great having him the entire game)- in which case there is no real character or talent test at all, just desperation and the ability to fight. And why not just go to every prison and gallows for new recruit material if that's all that's needed? (Why not indeed?) But the CE has no such luxury as a "test" because Duncan requires the Vaughan test instead.

And if Duncan is going on Daveth's street cred and defiance-tendency as sufficient, the CE has just the same given that she's Adaia's protege with a penchant for standing up for kin. So why accede to subjecting her to be such a cruel battery of "tests" at that point? She's already a shoo-in.

I'm just saying I can't see the "mettle-testing" argument as explaining why Duncan doesn't speak up at all as Adaia's kid is hauled off for an orderly raping and murdering.

And that's really all the OP's point is: Duncan doesn't do anything to intervene. There's no reason to make a violent stand if he can change the outcome merely by speaking up- and if the violent option is out for political reasons (and it does appear so), the option of diplomacy still remains, whatever the likelihood of success. A drunk spoiled "noble" intent on dirty deeds isn't the most likely to show backbone against an intimidation or persuasion check by the formidable Gray Warden Leader Duncan, so the chances of coersion aren't nil. And if a violent threat is all Duncan gets in response, fine, he acquiesces and later sneaks in a sword and crossbow, hoping that's enough... But until such time other alternatives exist. He had nothing to lose by at least trying to dissuade Vaughan before slinking off to spectator status- even if Adaia's kid wasn't in the abducted group or even if he'd decided already that she wasn't GW material... but especially if she was.

[Bhryaen]

Well, that's true. The initial wedding crash is only a matter of seconds and the actual abduction doesn't take place until after the CE is unconscious- that backhand being when the actual crime (which would otherwise be most compelling to a concerned Duncan) started occurring, so it's not fair to assert that Duncan did nothing. He only certainly did nothing up to the point that the CE gets the slapdown. I'll grant that- so not much more to say on it... The OP (and I) overlooked that possibility... You and I already agree that Duncan was in no position to, well, do what we usually do: rampage through the governor's estate as saviors- as we do again later to "save" Anora, delicate GW standing in Ferelden or no.

On joining a tournament- oh, I've always shied from the tournaments even though I know it would be a good way to adjust my skills to (more or less) real situations. It's the same thing with weight lifting- a difference between the strength needed for barbell lifts and the strength needed to actually lift heavy objects. But I wasn't saying that tournaments are easy- either to win or simply to face. I was saying that winning a tournament is a cake walk compared to being abducted by far more than merely "a few soldiers"- and the very Arl of Denerim's soldiers at that, including lieutenants- intent on actually raping or killing you (or making sure one and/ or the other happens to you). I'll gladly join a tournament instead where my competitors aren't trying to rape and kill me, where if I get injured the match is stopped and medics can aid me, where I have all the equipment I need and time to prepare, where the odds aren't stacked overwhelmingly against me, etc. If the two "tests" are equivalent for Duncan, well, that just shows something of his character. And again there's Daveth who underwent no such test at all, just had his street rep and humor- and OK, the (perhaps) brilliant chase (though I won't mention that Daveth doesn't come with pickpocket skills in vanilla). But, yes, as I said, the tournament or chase themselves weren't the ticket- whatever that ticket even is.

(Another point might be that Daveth faced the worst challenge since those soldiers may have been likely to kill him. He was destined for the gallows anyway. So Duncan had to intervene or Daveth would be dead for sure. The CE female mostly faces a rape- which one does survive- with "only" the possibility of being murdered. But Vaughan did have a reputation for more than mere promiscuity regarding elves, so...)

So I had understood your point- which is why I responded that Jory's impressing Duncan during the Redliffe tournament wasn't a demonstration of actual GW potential (something you'd already asserted), something Duncan was mistaken about regarding more dead GW wannabe's than Jory and Daveth. It's a gamble anyway apparently. You can't actually know if it's a fit until the delicious chalice-full o' nummies is presented. But Duncan is wrong more often than right, tallying our GW and Alistair's account.

I also didn't put these words in your mouth:

Faerunner wrote...
Plus his life was pretty much over then anyway, as he was about to be hanged, so maybe Duncan decided give him a chance at surviving the Joining versus certain death by the noose, on top of what he saw already.

I recognize that you'd made a number of different arguments why Duncan might've recruited Daveth, not just this one (it was a "plus" and "on top of" after all), but this was one of them, and thus, no, you weren't saying that Daveth's facing the gallows was sufficient reason for Duncan all alone, but it was potentially the decisive one. Regardless of anything else, Daveth was facing certain death anyway, so... why not snatch him up? True, Duncan's not likely to intervene to recruit someone he doesn't think can handle the tasks at all- why bother?- and Daveth was apparently promising enough from the all-too-brief encounter Duncan had had with him, but it wasn't an offer made at a tavern where Daveth had safely hidden out after escaping the guards. It wasn't an offer made without duress. The choice is made to give Daveth a different option for his neck.

And really why not? Riordan makes it clear in defense of Loghain that the GW's recruit all sorts of social rejects in pursuit of the defeat of darkspawn. The gallows holding cells might be a great place to look for recruits, particularly as a blight rears its head...

As to Duncan's word holding no weight... I balk every time I hear that about the GW's having no power in Ferelden. The lore may tout that out, but... really? GW's are given the royal ear of Cailan; GW's are given welcome and esteem in no lower manor than the Cousland castle itself; GW's stop the whole of casted Orzammar from coming down on my DC's head with a simple "whoa, horsey!"; the Dalish lose all their caution when one merely states to them that one is a GW whereupon they escort you directly to their leader; GW's stop the very leader of the Circle Tower Templars from arresting the demonstrated accomplice of a blood mage who had just shamed him, no blood magic charm required; GW's stop the guards of Denerim from arresting my knife-ears murderer of the very son of the Arl of Denerim himself plus about 25 soldiers and the estate dogs (not to mention the looting of the place) with yet another magic GW Command; despite their apparently already-weak standing, GW's are accused of regicide by the Queen and the original Hero of Ferelden but still walk openly in the streets of Denerim with the guards turning a blind eye (unless you fail a pickpocket, of course) and no harassment other than Ser Landry (who you can persuade otherwise) and the slavers who, well, are slavers. Even the Lothering Templar leader offers a nice helm, the Lothering "mother" just shoos you off out of fear of repercussions, and the Lothering thugs just want the ransom cash not revenge. Not a single Crow would take the contract on a GW except for the suicidal Zevran. And that respect can come potentially after you poison the Sacred Ashes, kill the Dalish elves, turn your back on Redcliffe, make a deal with Connor's and Honnleath's and Avernus' demons, etc. Not until you've killed Howe do Loghain's soldiers show up to nab the supposedly infamous Wardens, and not to arrest the already-disgraced GW's for the outstanding accusation of regicide, no: for killing Howe. Then after my GW (entirely lacking Duncan's reputation, mind you) slaughters all the occupants of Fort Drakon itself, the Landsmeet goes over in a landslide "for the Warden!" It'd be interesting to know what DAO would look like if GW's actually had no influence or authority in Ferelden, no Right of Conscription, the Warden Treaties treated like toilet paper, their word ignored and defied, mistrust everywhere. I mean, Daveth's guards (in yet another Ferelden town that respects GW's) didn't even know for sure Duncan would make Daveth a GW when they released him to Duncan's "custody" (though Duncan isn't an official officer of any Ferelden order owing loyalties to the crown), just trusted outright in his GW Command to suffice.

Arl of Denerim: "Did you catch that evil knife-ears criminal who managed to slaughter my son and all the guards in my estate? Not to mention Fido, my favorite hound! She's gonna be hung by her throat until-"
Arresting Guard: "Uh, no, ser. A Gray Warden came along, said he'd take the elf off our hands, so I said, 'Sure.'"
Arl of Denerim: "Oh... good enough then." *shrugs* "Carry on..."

So, yes, Duncan's word would've held weight as a GW- though regardless of intervening as a GW, he's a powerful fighter or rogue who could clearly take Vaughan and the little group Vaughan came with, so that too would've weighed into the exchange. Duncan could've intervened to at least try, and, no, as I also agree, the chances wouldn't have been good given how devoted to lowlifehood Vaughan was, but there was nothing stopping him from giving persuasion/ intimidation of the drunken malevolent ****** a shot... And for all we know he did.

[Get Magna Carter]

Duncan's primary purpose is to recruit grey wardens and stop the blight. He seems to dismiss other matters as unimportant.
Interfering in politics in Ferelden got the Grey Wardens kicked out earlier. Interfering in the actions of nobles and their families could be considered to be more of the same compromising the Grey Wardens position within Ferelden.
What's more important -saving a few elves or saving a country?

Admittedly, when I played it I came up with a theory that Duncan had staged the whole thing as a test and regarded him with suspicion afterwards (so I wasn't too bothered when he bought it)- but that's probably not intended and just a reflection of how deviously my mind can work..

[Get Magna Carter]

I will add that the grey wardens are still controversial in HUMAN society (Dwarves and Dalish elves don't care about the wardens meddling in human politics) and there are limitations to what Duncan can do when dealing with humans in authority without invoking the "right of conscription".
He's not going to use that right on everyone in trouble - just the ones he think can help the Wardens deal with the blight.

[thats1evildude]

Yes, Duncan can conscript criminals. That doesn't equate to holding influence with the guard. Duncan can't stop the captain from arresting Soris or purging the Alienage, which he threatens to do if Vaughan's killer does not surrender.

As for other members of the guard, Sergeant Kylon makes it clear that even if he believed the official reports from the teryn, he would not try to arrest you because his men are useless and he's not feeling suicidal.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 07 mai 2013 - 05:01 .

[LadyRaena13]

Ok having just played through this game for like the 16th or 17th time. My 3rd as a city elf, let me explain it too you. He is a Grey Warden, Vaughn is a LORDLING meaning if Duncan got involved directly he would be actively damaging his "grey-ness" his neutrality. But by giving your cousin and fiance weapons to save you, not only is he helping indirectly anyone who comes back is skilled in something obviously so he has his recruit.

[Ryzaki]

Ferretinabun wrote...

I know where OP is coming from, and just because I want to like Duncan, I headcannoned that he wasn't actually at the wedding. He does appear before the ceremony, but he is specially respectful about not wanting to intrude. And you don't actually see him during the wedding, so I assumed he'd just retired off to one side to let the elves have their private rituals in peace. Rather than actually standing right there watching the entire kidnap drama take place and doing naff all to stop it. That WOULD make him an ass.

I don't have too much of an issue with Duncan in the mage, or Dwarven origins. Sure, he will conscript you even against your wishes, but in practically all cases he is still saving you from obvious death. The Dalish origin doesn't sit quite so easily, because it feels a bit more like Duncan is conscripting you JUST to save you, rather than because he thinks you'd genuinely make a good warden, but that's not so much of an issue,

He DOES, however, come across as an ass in the Human Noble origin. One of the main reasons that is my least played origin.

Honestly only origins I found him not to be a douchecanoe in were DC, DN and DE. Probably because in those origins there's no way to avoid death without being conscripted.

HN especially made me gladly take that "he got what he deserved" dialogue choice. Don't even care if it loses me 20 approval.

[Bhryaen]

@Faerunner
1. Failed pickpocketing and tournaments are in the same category: not in the category of Easy Things To Perform, but in the category of Things That Don't Necessarily Make One Cut Out To Be A Warden. Quite true- and demonstrated in the game. They also fall into the category of Things That Impressed Duncan That Nevertheless Didn't Demonstrate Them As Sufficent For Gray Wardenhood.
2. Tournaments happen in relatively perfect safety. Forced abduction to the wealthy estate of armed men intent on rape and/or murdering you... not happening in any safety whatsoever. Only one option has a high chance of you ending up dead, and only one option has a high chance of being a festive event full of friends and family out enjoying themselves. Just saying.
3. "Well, I like to test people out first, see how they do in a challenge, so I think I'll just step aside silently to let this 1st level character get raped, maybe murdered, see how she fares..." isn't the thought process of someone who's earnestly interested in getting a living recruit to the Gray Wardens.
4. I've not "latched on" to the idea of recruiting from the gallows/ prisons as the only method of recruitment or only population from which to recruit. But it's a valid idea, and in a time of a blight, maybe a prudent one.
5. The Right of Conscription is power. It puts the Gray Wardens above the law- able to tell the Denerim police "Unhand that City Elf maiden!" despite that that maiden just murdered the mayor's son and all the mayor's mansion- pull people out of their everyday lives- and on the flimsiest of pretexts, having no proof whatsoever that you're even going to actually subject them to the Joining. And what proof is there that you're even a GW? They just accept it. And how? What force has Duncan got to back up this "right"? What stops people from just saying, "Yeah, Mr. 'Warden', we know about your kind. That old 'Warden' command stuff might impress lasses at the pub, but around here we got laws to enforce. Now outta the way before we gotta hurt ya." Instead they say, "Oh, well, OK. Whatever you say. We'll ignore our own laws and popular sentiment because you who claim to be a Gray Warden say so. Anything for you's guys, you know that." But he can't simply try to persuade Vaughan to back down and look out for people the way Riordan describes the duties of a Gray Warden? Nug-droppings. Doing the right thing by standing up to Vaughan in such a way could easily help the Gray Wardens cause and likely win them a great deal of respect from the Alienage elves watching, potentially inspiring interest. Not doing so just makes them look like an order that cowtows to nobility and does nothing of particular worth to anyone else.

@Others
How many times do I...? The OP's point was never that Duncan had to slaughter Vaughan and all his soldiers there on the spot, just that during the scene when Vaughan returns and breaks up the wedding, Duncan was conspicuously absent when instead he could've at least said something in protest- even if it were written so that Vaughan told Duncan off and forced him to accede. It would've shown Duncan as a good guy- or at least worthy of the hero title he tends to be afforded throughout the rest of the game. But it's also been made apparent that our CE is unconscious for a good portion of that scene, so it's also possible that Duncan did say at least something- i.e., it's not fair to assume he didn't, whether we wish he had or we think it was his pragmatic Warden duty to be a cowardly lackey.

[Lavaeolus]

Vaughan is a noble's son. Were he just some random ruffian, maybe he would've helped -- but imagine the backlash. I think that noble is actually fighting in Ostagar as they speak, do you really want to make an enemy of him? Vaughan's a prat, even a simple telling off could anger him. The Wardens need all the allies they need, all the soldiers they need. Duncan's not exactly condoning elf rape, but the darkspawn come first.

Fact is, giving that sword was already way more than he should've done. But it was subtle, and didn't really attach him to the scene of the crime. He could get away with it, and, at the same time, find a possible new recruit in time when recruits are desperately needed.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 09 mai 2013 - 12:43 .

[ejoslin]

Regarding Jory's fitness, we never meet any other wardens aside from Alistair, and in Alistair's opinion, Jory IS warden material, but he doesn't get why Daveth was recruited. That may say more about Alistair than anything else...

As far as Duncan? Face it, Shianni gets raped no matter what -- the CE gets there too late. Vaughn makes no pretense -- these women are going to be raped, violently (they may be a little worse for the wear I think is how he put it). That Duncan doesn't say one word is pretty telling.

Even the Chantry mother who's officiating the ceremony speaks up to Vaughn.

But even if Duncan had spoken up then, and even if Vaughn had capitulated, it's not like he wouldn't come back later either. The one he was most angry with was Shianni, and he would have hurt her no matter what.

I still think he should have said something. The GWs have enough clout that he may have been listened to. But then, of course, the CE would have gotten married, bad things still would be happening, and he most likely wouldn't have his recruit.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mai 2013 - 12:00 .

[luna1124]

Often, while playing a CE, I think of Duncan and why he could not "get involved". Yet through most of the game, the Warden is getting involved with everything. So, is the Warden doing wrong by "getting involved" with every quest they do?

[Lavaeolus]

@above: The Warden is breaking so many Warden-codes it's unbelievable. If it hadn't worked out so perfectly -- a Blight, which by all reason should've destroyed Ferelden entirely after the fiasco at Ostagar and maybe even if they had won, being defeated in a single year spectacularly -- the Warden would've been told off very much.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, and that gamble paid off. But, usually, such sort of risky actions being taken all the time would lead to the Wardens getting no recruits and being exiled from the whole of Thedas.

Alistair mentions how the Grey Wardens are kind of unhappy about the whole thing if he's a Warden in DAII.

ejoslin wrote...

I still think he should have said something. The GWs have enough clout that he may have been listened to.

"Warden, stick your nose out of this. Do you know who I am?"

Scenario 1: *Duncan backs down, Vaughan goes ahead with it unchanged*

Scenario 2: "I'm telling my father about this." *tells father, father withdraws support, darkspawn almost certainly win battle of Ostagar, darkspawn destroy Ferelden, possibly make a bunch of elves brood mothers."

The Grey Wardens draw great respect  from certain people -- hell, a lot of people outright hate them (Duncan is just fortunate concerning Denerim's elven elder) -- and Vaughan is most certainly not one of those people. He would not have been swayed to stop.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 10 mai 2013 - 03:02 .

[ejoslin]

I'm not sure father would have done that seeing as he was at Ostagar I would imagine -- it would have taken some time for the Arl to get word that the GW had dared backtalk his son, which of course would make him go against his king. Actually, not.

But I think you snipped out quite a few of the relevant points -- like when I said I doubt that Vaughn would have changed his course, and even if he did, he just would have come back later.

Would it have made Duncan look bad? No worse than when the Provings Master still incarcerated the casteless dwarf after Duncan tried to intervene there. It's not the impression that he would have made on Vaughn -- in fact, that's aside the point. Vaughn is obviously a sociopath. But saying nothing at all, when the only other human in the place at least told him to stop? The Chantry Mother certainly didn't look bad for saying something.

At least trying to diffuse a situation that was going to end up in horrible violence is something, successful or not.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mai 2013 - 03:20 .

[luna1124]

Yes, and the Grey-Wardens do what ever is necessary. I wondered why he did not want to recruit Soris. LOL He wasn't totally useless!

[ejoslin]

I think recruiting Soris would have been pushing things. The guard was already pretty ticked off that one of them was getting away (or as far as they knew, the only one -- but only if the CE is the warden and decides to take all the blame). Either Soris is off the hook, or the second suspect -- either way, recruiting him could be problematic.

ETA: Actually, without Duncan there, Soris goes on his own to rescue his bride, doesn't he.  Does the CE join him?  Without the stolen sword, things don't turn out too well :/

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mai 2013 - 03:29 .

[Lavaeolus]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm not sure father would have done that seeing as he was at Ostagar I would imagine -- it would have taken some time for the Arl to get word that the GW had dared backtalk his son, which of course would make him go against his king. Actually, not.

I'll admit the chances of the Arl immediately hearing word and running out is unlikely, but I'm not sure Ostagar would've been the last battle fought. Remember: there's an unsighted archdemon about and loads of darkspawn still in the Deep Roads. It might've taken a bit of time had they won the battle, but another fight would come up quickly. And they were already probably going to lose this one, troops or no.

We don't really see much of Vaughan's father's character, so it's hard to make a judgement. Or his mother, for that matter. But people like Vaughan don't pop out of thin-air, so his father is probably doing something to stroke that ego. I'd rather not take the risk, personally. Let the nobles be nobles, if you cannot influence them. Help from behind-the-scenes.

But I think you snipped out quite a few of the relevant points

Fair enough.

like when I said I doubt that Vaughn would have changed his course, and even if he did, he just would have come back later.

Would it have made Duncan look bad? No worse than when the Provings Master still incarcerated the casteless dwarf after Duncan tried to intervene there. It's not the impression that he would have made on Vaughn -- in fact, that's aside the point. Vaughn is obviously a sociopath. But saying nothing at all, when the only other human in the place at least told him to stop? The Chantry Mother certainly didn't look bad for saying something.

Oh, sure, he'd seem nicer if he interveened. But it would've accomplished nothing, so not raising a pointless objection hardly makes him a bad man.

Actions speak louder than words, and he later goes on to pass along a sword that saves both possibly the Warden and possibly everyone but Shianni.

At least trying to diffuse a situation that was going to end up in horrible violence is something, successful or not.

Considering what he was planning to do, being as detatched from the crime scene as can be was better. Raise a pointless objection now and raise suspicion, or actually work to save them?

And gain a possible recruit in the process. Warden and darkspawn come first, of course.

[ejoslin]

And I think the Arl committing treason and rebelling against his king over a trivial incident involving his son being psychotic wouldn't happen either. Especially if Vaughn isn't harmed. If Duncan slit his throat or something, I can see the Arl wanting the King to intervene, but I don't see Duncan being that stupid.

And yes, it would have made him seem a bit more decent. If Vaughn had instead just killed a few elves with Duncan standing right there, do you still think the silence would be appropriate, or maybe a "my lord, do you think..." may be in order.  Keep in mind, as soon as the women were incarcerated, one was murdered by a guard -- he slit her throat for no reason whatsoever.

And again, a woman did end up raped and another murdered. Duncan gave a couple of elves, whom he had no idea if they were trained or not, a sword, and wished them luck. If you're playing a female, he doesn't even give the sword to the recruit and it's stupid lucky that Soris was able to get the sword to her (to the point of unbelievable, actually, but would give you a lot of respect for Soris using the element of surprise).

And your last line I agree with and even said to begin with, though you snipped the part you agreed with

"I still think he should have said something. The GWs have enough clout that he may have been listened to. But then, of course, the CE would have gotten married, bad things still would be happening, and he most likely wouldn't have his recruit."

ETA: It has been a couple of years since I played this origin, so I'm looking up a few things to make sure I have them right

Edit: Okay, I was wrong about the Mother being the one to say something.  It was a female elf, and she got slapped down for it.  And it wasn't about the intended rape -- it was that he was doing it at a wedding.

Another edit: I've never played that as a male elf, and looking this over, it is completely emasculating.  I think it hits all the wrong nerves for males.  Hmmm.  Yeh, I don't see how the city elf could have done anything but try, same with Soris.  I knew the female city elf was powerful, but this may even be moreso.  AND leads more into the argument that rape is being used as a plot device.

Last edit: See, I think the problem I have wtih Duncan comes in is as a woman.  This man comes and lets everyone know he is planning on raping the women he takes, and kidnaps a few, and the person doesn't make one sound that this could possibly be a wrong thing to do.  

And it's not only Duncan. The ONLY one who speaks up is a female and the City Elf.  I mean, there's not much anyone can do, and that's the most chilling part about it.  It's not unexpected, apparently, because there is NO outrage expressed, which is pretty horrible to think about.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mai 2013 - 03:57 .

[Lavaeolus]

ETA: It has been a couple of years since I played this origin, so I'm looking up a few things to make sure I have them right

Yeah, I'll admit I'm not too familiar with the origin, especially the male version. I go dwarves or mages, generally.

God of destruction or midgetty bloke -- either way's fine.

Edit: Okay, I was wrong about the Mother being the one to say something. It was a female elf, and she got slapped down for it.

I thought 'twas the Mother as well. Well, shame on her, then.

Duncan gave a couple of elves, whom he had no idea if they were trained or not, a sword, and wished them luck.

I think Duncan mentions something about the elf's mother at one point, who trained the City Elf in the warrior/rogue ways. Don't quote me on that, though.

And I think the Arl committing treason and rebelling against his king over a trivial incident involving his son being psychotic wouldn't happen either. Especially if Vaughn isn't harmed.

Well, yeah, but if Vaughan isn't harmed, it accomplishes nothing. I think Duncan is a cold man, sometimes.

I mean, there's not much anyone can do, and that's the most chilling part about it. It's not unexpected, apparently, because there is NO outrage expressed, which is pretty horrible to think about.

Ah, the City Elf origin. This makes me remember why I made my City Elf such a hateful person.

though you snipped the part you agreed with

I'm a snippy person; I snip a lot. Snip, snip, snip and so on.

[ejoslin]

*grin* Yeh, in the female city elf origin, Duncan gives the sword to Soris and Nelaros. Soris manages to find the room the women are being held in, after all the women but the CE are taken away, appears behind the two guards who are left, and slides the sword on over while the guards are still all, "Who are you?"

The worst part about it, on my over-reflection on it today, is that the kidnappings probably were not that unusual an occurrence.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 mai 2013 - 05:12 .