Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 mai 2013 - 02:30 .
Duncan in City Elf Origin WTF
Débuté par
JorieSilver
, mars 13 2013 10:54
#101
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 02:12
DeinonSlayer
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[Edit: image removed - NOT cut game content]
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#102
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 03:52
TEWR
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I have to wonder why Bioware didn't include that in the first place. It kinda drives the point home more then it was given (which isn't to say you can't see what happened at all).
#104
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 05:10
DeinonSlayer
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It's not a mod, technically. It was in the game. They cut it, but left the texture in the game files - it seems the scene was controversial enough without showing her battered and bloody.caradoc2000 wrote...
Mods do not count.
I already want to carve Vaughan up by the time I catch him. Seeing this would... well, let's just say I'd be left wishing we could get more creative.
#105
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 06:17
thats1evildude
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It pains me to see Shianni in such a state. Would that Vaughan's death could have been slower.
#106
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 11:22
JorieSilver
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Ugh. Okay. I'm jumping in again.
Good on Bioware for at least deciding that a specific "my name is Shianni and I just got raped" texture was a bad plan. Jesus.
The whole sequence was distasteful enough without that, thanks very much. This whole "wow, it drives the point home more" thing is...ugh. Just...no.
Back when I started the thread, I said this:
I think this applies when we're sitting here, "having to wonder" why Bioware didn't include it in the game. Because it's effed up, that's why.
Good on Bioware for at least deciding that a specific "my name is Shianni and I just got raped" texture was a bad plan. Jesus.
The whole sequence was distasteful enough without that, thanks very much. This whole "wow, it drives the point home more" thing is...ugh. Just...no.
Back when I started the thread, I said this:
I felt like I had to say something about this--I feel strongly that rape is treated too lightly in a lot of modern "dark fantasy." (I think we can probably at least partially blame George RR Martin for this.) Rape is also highly gendered--most rape victims are women, and most rapists are men. The city-elf origin was written by a man (Daniel Erickson, at least according to the wiki). Most gamers are men. Hell, most consumers of non-vampire-romance-related fantasy in general are men.
...
It squicks me out that this is true, that so many men write stories for men in which men rape women left and right--all in the name of some much sought-after "gritty realism".
I think this applies when we're sitting here, "having to wonder" why Bioware didn't include it in the game. Because it's effed up, that's why.
#107
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 12:33
DeinonSlayer
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I'd say what they did with the broodmother is far worse, but yeah, for the record, I'm glad they cut it too. It's horrific.
#108
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 06:38
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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DeinonSlayer wrote...
So on the Nexus, I found what they say we were supposed to see towards the end of the City Elf origin. Re-included as a texture in Dragon Age Redesigned.
Soulless doesn't begin to describe the warden who could leave Shianni behind for a pocketful of gold.
I'm pretty sure 40 gold is more than most people see in their lives in this setting. As for leaving her behind, he does mention that the Alienage will be purged if he dies. (Which it absolutely was in my CE's game.) Whether or not Vaughn can be trusted not to do so if he lives, a Warden who isn't entirely soulless could still leave her behind for that reason. As has already been mentioned.
#109
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 07:01
thats1evildude
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Soulless might not be the right word. "Hopelessly naive" seems more apt.
#110
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 07:05
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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If indeed the Warden did it on Vaughn's word that he wouldn't purge the Alienage. If they did it just for the money, that Warden is soulless. (And hopelessly naive in that he/she thought they'd actually get to use it.)
#111
Posté 14 mai 2013 - 08:58
DeinonSlayer
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Even if he were willing to let Shianni and the others go, one would have to be hopelessly foolish to believe Vaughan wouldn't go back on his word. He already has the pretext to do it. The second you leave the room, there's no blade to his throat; no imminent threat of reprisal stating his hand.
I've never tested it (and I never will), but my understanding is that Howe purges the Alienage whether you spare Vaughan or not.
I've never tested it (and I never will), but my understanding is that Howe purges the Alienage whether you spare Vaughan or not.
Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 14 mai 2013 - 10:08 .
#112
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 12:38
ShadowLordXII
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Duncan's hands were honestly tied, Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral in all matters that aren't directly related to the darkspawn.
In fact, the indirect aid that he gives you and Soris would have gotten him into trouble if anyone knew about that. Especially since the City Elf goes on to murder an arl's son, an entire estate of guards and knights and two other banns.
In fact, the indirect aid that he gives you and Soris would have gotten him into trouble if anyone knew about that. Especially since the City Elf goes on to murder an arl's son, an entire estate of guards and knights and two other banns.
#113
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:14
theskymoves
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That beaten Shianni texture is not included in the game files. (I just looked. It's not there. Not. There.) 
I think a better interpretation of the wording in the description is that the modder originally intended to add it to the game, but decided against it. (Note that the wording is "I decided..." not "Bioware decided...".)
I think a better interpretation of the wording in the description is that the modder originally intended to add it to the game, but decided against it. (Note that the wording is "I decided..." not "Bioware decided...".)
#114
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 02:24
DeinonSlayer
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theskymoves wrote...
That beaten Shianni texture is not included in the game files. (I just looked. It's not there. Not. There.)
I think a better interpretation of the wording in the description is that the modder originally intended to add it to the game, but decided against it. (Note that the wording is "I decided..." not "Bioware decided...".)
OK, then I'm sorry I posted it. My understanding from the description in the image was that it was cut content. Given the territory they demonstrated a willingness to go into, narratively, it wouldn't have surprised me at all if the texture had been real.
Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 15 mai 2013 - 02:32 .
#115
Posté 15 mai 2013 - 01:09
Regan Cousland
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This is an interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading many of the comments.
I'm not sure if anybody's already brought this up, but, UndergoingMitosis, have you considered the possibility that Duncan isn't even *at* the wedding when the nobles arrive?
The last thing he says to the soon-to-be Warden is, "We'll speak again after the wedding."
And he doesn't appear in any cut-scene or in the background of any cut-scene after that point.
The impression I got the very first time I played that origin story was that Duncan -- being tactful enough to realize that his presence wouldn't be appreciated -- wandered off to explore other areas of the alienage while the service was being conducted.
If he was there he would have intervened, but he didn't learn what had happened until he returned after the incident and his elven friend, the white-haired elder, gave him the details.
I'm not sure if anybody's already brought this up, but, UndergoingMitosis, have you considered the possibility that Duncan isn't even *at* the wedding when the nobles arrive?
The last thing he says to the soon-to-be Warden is, "We'll speak again after the wedding."
And he doesn't appear in any cut-scene or in the background of any cut-scene after that point.
The impression I got the very first time I played that origin story was that Duncan -- being tactful enough to realize that his presence wouldn't be appreciated -- wandered off to explore other areas of the alienage while the service was being conducted.
If he was there he would have intervened, but he didn't learn what had happened until he returned after the incident and his elven friend, the white-haired elder, gave him the details.
#116
Posté 16 mai 2013 - 01:04
JorieSilver
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Regan Cousland wrote...
This is an interesting thread and I've enjoyed reading many of the comments.
I'm not sure if anybody's already brought this up, but, UndergoingMitosis, have you considered the possibility that Duncan isn't even *at* the wedding when the nobles arrive?
The last thing he says to the soon-to-be Warden is, "We'll speak again after the wedding."
And he doesn't appear in any cut-scene or in the background of any cut-scene after that point.
The impression I got the very first time I played that origin story was that Duncan -- being tactful enough to realize that his presence wouldn't be appreciated -- wandered off to explore other areas of the alienage while the service was being conducted.
If he was there he would have intervened, but he didn't learn what had happened until he returned after the incident and his elven friend, the white-haired elder, gave him the details.
I think someone mentioned this early in the thread. Honestly, if that was the writer's intention, they didn't do a very good job of showing that, but I suppose it's possible. When I played it, I got the impression that he was in the crowd, and I think that's the impression that most other people got too.
#117
Posté 16 mai 2013 - 02:19
Bhryaen
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Yes, IIRC you basically walk directly from Duncan- who remains standing there after you speak with him as until you walk to where the cutscene plays- to the wedding ceremony full in view from where he's standing not more than 20 steps away. And he's also standing in the same path that Vaughan takes to the stage. Could he have left at that point? Maybe, though he'd have had to run in order to not notice Vaughan's approach.
The only way it might make sense to assume Duncan isn't present is if we're supposed to assume time has passed before the cutscene starts- like how we're instantly whisked to the Orzammar Palace if we crown Bhelen, at which point we're told he's already met with his generals (and found some room in the Palace for the male DN's "whorl" and "brat")- something that would've taken more time than the stroll from the Assembly to the Palace would've taken- not to mention the time for nobles to start lining up in the throne room, etc. So we assume we were busy before that cutscene transpires and carry forward from after having wandered about Orzammar taking holiday snaps or whatever.
It's not so clear in the CE's wedding scene how long it's been since talking w Duncan, but, after all, the ceremony had been waiting on the CE, it starts the moment the CE steps to their spot on the stage, and NPCs hurry her/him along through the entire first part of the origin, chiding about being late to their own wedding... Dunno. But it does look like it's supposed to be instantaneous... which would place Duncan in the immediate area.
The only way it might make sense to assume Duncan isn't present is if we're supposed to assume time has passed before the cutscene starts- like how we're instantly whisked to the Orzammar Palace if we crown Bhelen, at which point we're told he's already met with his generals (and found some room in the Palace for the male DN's "whorl" and "brat")- something that would've taken more time than the stroll from the Assembly to the Palace would've taken- not to mention the time for nobles to start lining up in the throne room, etc. So we assume we were busy before that cutscene transpires and carry forward from after having wandered about Orzammar taking holiday snaps or whatever.
It's not so clear in the CE's wedding scene how long it's been since talking w Duncan, but, after all, the ceremony had been waiting on the CE, it starts the moment the CE steps to their spot on the stage, and NPCs hurry her/him along through the entire first part of the origin, chiding about being late to their own wedding... Dunno. But it does look like it's supposed to be instantaneous... which would place Duncan in the immediate area.
#118
Posté 16 mai 2013 - 11:19
Regan Cousland
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I replayed the Origin last night and and I discovered that Duncan *does* in fact appear in the background of cut-scenes during the wedding ceremony. Twice, briefly.
He's standing in the exact same position he was in during his conversation with the Warden, and he's staring off into space, not looking at the ceremony.
So basically it's poor scripting on BioWare's part. It seems like they simply disregarded Duncan as a character during that entire scene. I'd rather go on assuming that he isn't present when Vaughn turns up.
Bhryaen, I see what you're saying, but not much time would have to elapse for Duncan to walk down an alley and miss Vaughn and his men. The alienage is supposed to be a bustling, noisy place, full of shacks and shanty-towns, even if graphically the game isn't up to portraying that.
He's standing in the exact same position he was in during his conversation with the Warden, and he's staring off into space, not looking at the ceremony.
So basically it's poor scripting on BioWare's part. It seems like they simply disregarded Duncan as a character during that entire scene. I'd rather go on assuming that he isn't present when Vaughn turns up.
Bhryaen, I see what you're saying, but not much time would have to elapse for Duncan to walk down an alley and miss Vaughn and his men. The alienage is supposed to be a bustling, noisy place, full of shacks and shanty-towns, even if graphically the game isn't up to portraying that.
Modifié par Regan Cousland, 16 mai 2013 - 11:26 .
#119
Posté 17 mai 2013 - 03:29
Jestina
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At least the character had clothes on, which I doubt she would have. Duncan's job is not to play nice person...he's there looking for recruits to stop the Blight. As for elves...they are not treated as equal citizens and have few "rights", if any, which was made clear through most of the game.
#120
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 17 mai 2013 - 05:32
Guest_Faerunner_*
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Jestina wrote...
As for elves...they are not treated as equal citizens and have few "rights", if any, which was made clear through most of the game.
True, though Duncan doesn't seem to share those prejudices. He is equally polite, courteous, and respectful to all people regardless of their race or social class... and he's equally unhelpful to all protagonists regardless of their background. (Cousland being a fine example and the CE's butt opposite on the social ladder.)
Again though, he's only considering the PC when they meet, disaster strikes when he's not looking and/or when he's not in a position to stop it without jeopardizing the Warden's stay in Ferelden and/or ability to stop the Blight, and he still lends unnoficial help in the best way he can. (Bringing the Dalish PC to the Keeper for healing, lending the CE rescue party weapons so they stand a chance, etc.)
Modifié par Faerunner, 17 mai 2013 - 05:34 .
#121
Posté 18 mai 2013 - 10:19
Bhryaen
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@Regan Cousland
Well, if you see Duncan right in the cutscene background (you must have sharper eyes than I- not difficult with my eyesight), everything anyone has speculated on his whereabouts at the time of the abduction is moot: he's right there in the midst of it... turning a blind eye... He does insist just prior that he's not going anywhere when the CE engages him to make him leave, and he says nothing of leaving during the conversation. Anyway, he's there. However, I'm less of the impression that the writer intended to show a lame Duncan who accedes silently to wanton rape as if part of his Gray Warden duties... and more of the impression that, as you suggested, the writer merely dropped the ball on Duncan's participation in the CE origin at that key moment. It's like he just overlooked that story detail.
More perplexing (because I have no ready answer) is UndergoingMitosis' point about what's appropriate to put in a game or what's an appropriate way to depict it. DAO is a game designed so that someone can get a large treasure for letting rape happen to people- and to people close to their character, mind you- and to good people too. Is this sociopathy in itself, providing a game that enables such a fantasy? I don't know and have long mulled over why folks enjoy playing evil characters at all- and evil not in the sense of being snarky or cold-heartedly pragmatic or greedy or making hard decisions, but evil in the Batman Joker sense of just doing it to "be evil." But games do provide that "outlet" for it- scripting and writing and designing and voice-acting for it- regardless of whether players ever choose it- DAO being one of such games, and the CE bribe-taking is arguably one example. And DAO does not provide an outlet for anyone who wants to save Shianni from being raped: that's written to happen regardless before your character can arrive. So is DAO condemnable for it? The whole "it's just a game" somehow doesn't address it sufficiently.
UM takes the matter further regarding the general treatment of women in DAO and gaming at large- a much larger subject, and, hell, my favorite game, Baldur's Gate, is based on a deity raping mortal women... but I'm still stuck just determining whether the CE rape scenario alone is a benign theme for an entertainment medium- even for adults. Then again a game featuring ethnic cleansing might affect a Croatian player differently- or one featuring metal hangers might affect a child abuse victim differently. What makes rape so "special"? For sure there are worse scenarios in DAO than the CE's dilemma: what darkspawn do to dwarf women easily surpasses Vaughan's calumny, as mentioned earlier, and there's plenty of murder, theft, and mayhem available in the DAO experience- some of the worst of it perpetrated by the Warden themself- so that the CE origin antagonist hardly stands out glaringly in juxtaposition.
Regardless the CE origin remains up at my 2nd favorite... I suppose because I like being able to save everyone from what appears to be an insurmountable crisis and odds- albeit only after Shianni suffers- and I get to bring in the justice on every last one of the scuzbags, and I can do all of it despite how powerful is the family I'm up against- and all ultimately without any other consequence than temporary exile before I'm lauded a world hero. Maybe it's cathartic that way, dunno, but it's not thrills for "gritty realism". And I recognize that such a fantasy does require a game that reifies a scenario in which rape is being threatened- inventing such an enemy in the first place to be destroyed. Of course, such a fantasy also wouldn't require Shianni to be raped- an unnecessary story development. Plenty of good movies and shows with a threatened rape that never occurs because it's thwarted somehow. What good does Shianni suffering a rape do for the story? (Actually I didn't quite recognize it had happened the first time I played through given that she's still dressed and doesn't have the face bruises, and no one states it outright.)
Putting a fantasy of a foilable rape threat into a game also wouldn't require an option to scuzbag out on everyone with a ridiculous bribe- so that could've been written differently as well. But then again DAO wouldn't be a roleplaying game if it didn't include different choices with different outcomes. So it does mean something to have a character who chooses to stay poor (40 sovs less rich) and nevertheless be brave and save everyone- not the same as when the game story forces the rescue. It just also means the game enables some people to play that out the scuzbag way, indulging that sort of thing. It's just pathetic that the scuzbag option is so profitable, so metagamed (you have to know ahead of time it'll work or it will make no sense for the CE or Vaughan to trust each other (so much for realism)), and so lacking in consequences. OK, some consequences: Shianni's mad when you return. Ouch. Then she forgives you. *rolls eyes* Then she's killed by a racist in the end slides...
Well, if you see Duncan right in the cutscene background (you must have sharper eyes than I- not difficult with my eyesight), everything anyone has speculated on his whereabouts at the time of the abduction is moot: he's right there in the midst of it... turning a blind eye... He does insist just prior that he's not going anywhere when the CE engages him to make him leave, and he says nothing of leaving during the conversation. Anyway, he's there. However, I'm less of the impression that the writer intended to show a lame Duncan who accedes silently to wanton rape as if part of his Gray Warden duties... and more of the impression that, as you suggested, the writer merely dropped the ball on Duncan's participation in the CE origin at that key moment. It's like he just overlooked that story detail.
More perplexing (because I have no ready answer) is UndergoingMitosis' point about what's appropriate to put in a game or what's an appropriate way to depict it. DAO is a game designed so that someone can get a large treasure for letting rape happen to people- and to people close to their character, mind you- and to good people too. Is this sociopathy in itself, providing a game that enables such a fantasy? I don't know and have long mulled over why folks enjoy playing evil characters at all- and evil not in the sense of being snarky or cold-heartedly pragmatic or greedy or making hard decisions, but evil in the Batman Joker sense of just doing it to "be evil." But games do provide that "outlet" for it- scripting and writing and designing and voice-acting for it- regardless of whether players ever choose it- DAO being one of such games, and the CE bribe-taking is arguably one example. And DAO does not provide an outlet for anyone who wants to save Shianni from being raped: that's written to happen regardless before your character can arrive. So is DAO condemnable for it? The whole "it's just a game" somehow doesn't address it sufficiently.
UM takes the matter further regarding the general treatment of women in DAO and gaming at large- a much larger subject, and, hell, my favorite game, Baldur's Gate, is based on a deity raping mortal women... but I'm still stuck just determining whether the CE rape scenario alone is a benign theme for an entertainment medium- even for adults. Then again a game featuring ethnic cleansing might affect a Croatian player differently- or one featuring metal hangers might affect a child abuse victim differently. What makes rape so "special"? For sure there are worse scenarios in DAO than the CE's dilemma: what darkspawn do to dwarf women easily surpasses Vaughan's calumny, as mentioned earlier, and there's plenty of murder, theft, and mayhem available in the DAO experience- some of the worst of it perpetrated by the Warden themself- so that the CE origin antagonist hardly stands out glaringly in juxtaposition.
Regardless the CE origin remains up at my 2nd favorite... I suppose because I like being able to save everyone from what appears to be an insurmountable crisis and odds- albeit only after Shianni suffers- and I get to bring in the justice on every last one of the scuzbags, and I can do all of it despite how powerful is the family I'm up against- and all ultimately without any other consequence than temporary exile before I'm lauded a world hero. Maybe it's cathartic that way, dunno, but it's not thrills for "gritty realism". And I recognize that such a fantasy does require a game that reifies a scenario in which rape is being threatened- inventing such an enemy in the first place to be destroyed. Of course, such a fantasy also wouldn't require Shianni to be raped- an unnecessary story development. Plenty of good movies and shows with a threatened rape that never occurs because it's thwarted somehow. What good does Shianni suffering a rape do for the story? (Actually I didn't quite recognize it had happened the first time I played through given that she's still dressed and doesn't have the face bruises, and no one states it outright.)
Putting a fantasy of a foilable rape threat into a game also wouldn't require an option to scuzbag out on everyone with a ridiculous bribe- so that could've been written differently as well. But then again DAO wouldn't be a roleplaying game if it didn't include different choices with different outcomes. So it does mean something to have a character who chooses to stay poor (40 sovs less rich) and nevertheless be brave and save everyone- not the same as when the game story forces the rescue. It just also means the game enables some people to play that out the scuzbag way, indulging that sort of thing. It's just pathetic that the scuzbag option is so profitable, so metagamed (you have to know ahead of time it'll work or it will make no sense for the CE or Vaughan to trust each other (so much for realism)), and so lacking in consequences. OK, some consequences: Shianni's mad when you return. Ouch. Then she forgives you. *rolls eyes* Then she's killed by a racist in the end slides...
#122
Posté 19 mai 2013 - 12:53
Lavaeolus
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I think she forgives you only if you don't sacrifice the elves. Then again, if you sacrifice them, I'm pretty sure she's probably going to be pissed with you anyway, so moot point.OK, some consequences: Shianni's mad when you return. Ouch. Then she forgives you. *rolls eyes* Then she's killed by a racist in the end slides...
#123
Posté 19 mai 2013 - 05:14
JorieSilver
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Bhryaen wrote...
More perplexing (because I have no ready answer) is UndergoingMitosis' point about what's appropriate to put in a game or what's an appropriate way to depict it. DAO is a game designed so that someone can get a large treasure for letting rape happen to people- and to people close to their character, mind you- and to good people too. Is this sociopathy in itself, providing a game that enables such a fantasy? I don't know and have long mulled over why folks enjoy playing evil characters at all- and evil not in the sense of being snarky or cold-heartedly pragmatic or greedy or making hard decisions, but evil in the Batman Joker sense of just doing it to "be evil." But games do provide that "outlet" for it- scripting and writing and designing and voice-acting for it- regardless of whether players ever choose it- DAO being one of such games, and the CE bribe-taking is arguably one example. And DAO does not provide an outlet for anyone who wants to save Shianni from being raped: that's written to happen regardless before your character can arrive. So is DAO condemnable for it? The whole "it's just a game" somehow doesn't address it sufficiently.
UM takes the matter further regarding the general treatment of women in DAO and gaming at large- a much larger subject, and, hell, my favorite game, Baldur's Gate, is based on a deity raping mortal women... but I'm still stuck just determining whether the CE rape scenario alone is a benign theme for an entertainment medium- even for adults. Then again a game featuring ethnic cleansing might affect a Croatian player differently- or one featuring metal hangers might affect a child abuse victim differently. What makes rape so "special"? For sure there are worse scenarios in DAO than the CE's dilemma: what darkspawn do to dwarf women easily surpasses Vaughan's calumny, as mentioned earlier, and there's plenty of murder, theft, and mayhem available in the DAO experience- some of the worst of it perpetrated by the Warden themself- so that the CE origin antagonist hardly stands out glaringly in juxtaposition.
I think what makes the scenario "special" to me is that it offends *me*. I don't know how many Croatian players Dragon Age has--and I think a game made in Croatia would be less willing to throw around something like ethnic cleansing in such a haphazard manner.
What the cavalier mistreatement of women in a video game tells me is "this game isn't *for* you. It's for the people who want to fantasize about rescuing you." That's maybe not quite right either, though it's part of it. There is also my anger at the way Duncan stands idly by. There is also the fact that, in this instance, the story isn't the same for a male and female Warden: The male Warden is a rescuer come too late. The female Warden is a victim fighting for survival. Those are very different things.
I think there is room for the latter story: Dragon Age more-or-less does this later in the game, even. You're captured, stripped naked, and thrown into a cell. This doesn't always happen for every Warden, but the deciding factor isn't your gender, it's your choices. In the City Elf origin, whether or not you become the victim or the hero has nothing to do with your choices and everything to do with your gender. The female City Elf is robbed of her agency where the male City Elf is not.
And that, to me, is a problem. Because I do love Dragon Age. I do love playing RPG's. I like combat and roleplaying and looting and crafting and exploration...what I don't like is feeling like an outsider in my own gaming experience. And in real life, rape is a thing that happens to both men and women. It is gendered in that it happens more often to women than men, but in Dragon Age (correct me if I'm wrong) a man is *never* raped. Which strikes me as particularly egregious given Ferelden's relative gender equality.
So I think really my anger lies in asserting that I am a gamer. And a woman. And my womanhood doesn't get checked at the door when I boot up a game. If a game presents itself as providing a gender equal gaming experience (which Dragon Age generally does), then what I want is a gender equal gaming experience. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Bioware did any of this on purpose. I think it's indeed *more* telling that it all happened by accident. We live in a culture where this kind of sexism is so ingrained that people display it accidentally all the time. None of the writers at Bioware thought "huh, I wonder if women would still get raped all the time if we handed them swords and taught them how to use them." Because *of course* women get raped and assualted left and right--they're *women* after all, and this is a pseudo-medieval setting. *Of course* that's how it works.
So really, I guess it boils down to this: I'm a woman, and I play games. If you're going to give agency to the male PC, I damn well want it for my female PC, too.
Okay. Rant done. For the record, I'm not ranting at you, Bhryaen. You're questions were legitimate and thought provoking, and I appreciate that you asked them
Also for the record: these are all my personal thoughts and feelings. I don't claim to speak for all female gamers--I just feel like my objections to this particular aspect of Dragon Age are born from my gender, which I why I used the language I did. Other women, of course, are going to have their own thoughts and feelings on the matter.
#124
Posté 19 mai 2013 - 10:07
Bhryaen
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I think I may be getting your point (or points, rather) now... maybe not.
Are you saying that it would make more sense if, for the m!CE, they'd, say, made Vaughan a Vaughanessa or made Vaughan gay and then had the m!CE abducted in the same way as the f!CE does but this time with all the groom's men? (Or that Vaughan and his boys are bi and just abducts everyone?) Or that the f!CE doesn't get abducted either but has to take the same route as the m!CE in order to save her hubby-to-be from rape? Despite rejecting the claims that "Well, this is medieval, so therefore it has to be backward" when Thedas simply isn't really either, I'd still have to say that that kind of scenario would be... radically different. ;-) Good luck with that! No, really, it would be interesting, and, well, I'm not dyed-in-the-wool enough with societal norms to feel any difficulty with it- would roll with it probably without raising an eyebrow, just out for Vaughan's head in a different way. But still- it would be new.
I'm not sure if I feel it's a failure that Bioware didn't do it, but it's certainly not particularly pioneering the way they conceived it. The way it's setup is pretty much the same schtick you'd see in, say, a 1920s movie:
F-victim: "I can't pay the rent!"
M-villain: "You must pay the rent!"
M-rescuer: "I'll pay the rent!"
Yet actually I find that I liked the difference between the two CE stories, mostly because I like the way the game lets you have a different experience within the same origin, able to either fight your way in or fight your way out to save everyone- but then again I haven't really been seeing the difference as a gender-orchestrated or gender-normative storyline, just a storyline. I've enjoyed having an Option A and Option B that played out differently. It's an extra step for me to see it as necessarily constructed by gender-specific stereotype roles- whether deliberately or sociopathologically... though it is true that only the CE origin changes key (pivotal) components of the playthrough based on your character's sex.
I mean, the different race origins also render fundamentally different experiences, and those of a different "race" than the perceived dominant one in real life society might be offended by the portrayal of elves in DAO, saying there shouldn't be racial inequality in DAO either. I'm part Amerindian and normally take to elves, but the sterile, generally 2-dimensionally-portrayed Dalish just don't do it for me. Not to mention the propagation of the myth of the noble savage who's always primitive and hot-headed and incapable of building their own civilization. So I could shake a fist at Bioware for having maintained the same stereotypes we always get tossed our way. But given the medium is a game rather than a history book- with a world setting based only very loosely on real world entities- I suppose I don't find myself alienated by it. I can put aside real world social dynamics and adjust to the ones in the game. (OK, I know the game exists as a subset within the larger culture, but still...)
But, yeah, there's a pattern that unfolds. You're absolutely right about the inaccuracy of the "men rape, women get raped" theme- or at least the statistics in real society are less overwhelmingly one-sided as they tend to be represented in art and the media. I could launch into a hyper/hypoagency discussion, but, well... it's just a DAO thread. Suffice it to say that violence by women vs men is underreported and violence by men vs women overreported... and that's in the real world, so there's no reason DAO's relatively egalitarian storylines should be even more lopsided, what with women more than welcome to arm themselves and fight, as you mention.
You may also be right about the "haphazard" manner in which the CE story plays out, particularly given Duncan's (lame) "role" in it. Not that rape in Canada (where DAO is "from") is quite the same sociological disorder to deal with as ethnic cleansing in Croatia, but for sure there are better and worse ways of depicting rapist villainy in fiction. But I'm not sure I could agree that the f!CE story is entirely agency-free. It irks me further that a single backslap from a court jester boy knocks out my tough CE regardless of sex, but once the m!CE gets through the front door, it's essentially the same fight: they both take the sword Duncan passed them and put it to good use beside buddy Soris. The m!CE does decide for himself whether to go to the estate (well, if he doesn't, the game ends heh) while the f!CE is simply there already and initially just fights to survive after someone else breaks in to throw her the sword- assistance rather than a rescue. But either way the CE is compelled to start with little armor or weaponry and then battle the arl's estate and save everyone, and the f!CE manages it with a lot less to begin with and under a lot more duress. So for agency the f!CE demonstrates it more dramatically than the m!CE... unless I misunderstand the term.
Aedlyn Tabris... not exactly lacking in agency...
"How's THAT for a knockout smackdown?!"
"Now... what was it you were saying about gutting my ignorant carcass?"
As a side note (since this hasn't been any primary concern mentioned thus far) I also noticed (due to my XP/treasure-greed) that the f!CE gets notably less XP and loot because she doesn't get to kill all those dogs and soldiers outside the estate like the male CE does. Oh- and the f!CE has her hubby-to-be slain early on while the m!CE gets to rescue his not-quite-wife (and her dialog) only to fawn all over his cousin instead if he prefers. Those sorts of story differences do irk me (a bit) from the start since they flatten out portions of the f!CE's story that remain full in the m!CE's story without any attempt to add content for balance.
Ultimately I ended up only wanting to play the flatter f!version anyway, so then I didn't notice any longer... Equality by omission!
Oh, and no worries on ranting. You express yourself very well- clearly, poignantly, and focused- so if that's ranting, bring it! ;-) I always appreciate an eye-opening...
Are you saying that it would make more sense if, for the m!CE, they'd, say, made Vaughan a Vaughanessa or made Vaughan gay and then had the m!CE abducted in the same way as the f!CE does but this time with all the groom's men? (Or that Vaughan and his boys are bi and just abducts everyone?) Or that the f!CE doesn't get abducted either but has to take the same route as the m!CE in order to save her hubby-to-be from rape? Despite rejecting the claims that "Well, this is medieval, so therefore it has to be backward" when Thedas simply isn't really either, I'd still have to say that that kind of scenario would be... radically different. ;-) Good luck with that! No, really, it would be interesting, and, well, I'm not dyed-in-the-wool enough with societal norms to feel any difficulty with it- would roll with it probably without raising an eyebrow, just out for Vaughan's head in a different way. But still- it would be new.
I'm not sure if I feel it's a failure that Bioware didn't do it, but it's certainly not particularly pioneering the way they conceived it. The way it's setup is pretty much the same schtick you'd see in, say, a 1920s movie:
F-victim: "I can't pay the rent!"
M-villain: "You must pay the rent!"
M-rescuer: "I'll pay the rent!"
Yet actually I find that I liked the difference between the two CE stories, mostly because I like the way the game lets you have a different experience within the same origin, able to either fight your way in or fight your way out to save everyone- but then again I haven't really been seeing the difference as a gender-orchestrated or gender-normative storyline, just a storyline. I've enjoyed having an Option A and Option B that played out differently. It's an extra step for me to see it as necessarily constructed by gender-specific stereotype roles- whether deliberately or sociopathologically... though it is true that only the CE origin changes key (pivotal) components of the playthrough based on your character's sex.
I mean, the different race origins also render fundamentally different experiences, and those of a different "race" than the perceived dominant one in real life society might be offended by the portrayal of elves in DAO, saying there shouldn't be racial inequality in DAO either. I'm part Amerindian and normally take to elves, but the sterile, generally 2-dimensionally-portrayed Dalish just don't do it for me. Not to mention the propagation of the myth of the noble savage who's always primitive and hot-headed and incapable of building their own civilization. So I could shake a fist at Bioware for having maintained the same stereotypes we always get tossed our way. But given the medium is a game rather than a history book- with a world setting based only very loosely on real world entities- I suppose I don't find myself alienated by it. I can put aside real world social dynamics and adjust to the ones in the game. (OK, I know the game exists as a subset within the larger culture, but still...)
But, yeah, there's a pattern that unfolds. You're absolutely right about the inaccuracy of the "men rape, women get raped" theme- or at least the statistics in real society are less overwhelmingly one-sided as they tend to be represented in art and the media. I could launch into a hyper/hypoagency discussion, but, well... it's just a DAO thread. Suffice it to say that violence by women vs men is underreported and violence by men vs women overreported... and that's in the real world, so there's no reason DAO's relatively egalitarian storylines should be even more lopsided, what with women more than welcome to arm themselves and fight, as you mention.
You may also be right about the "haphazard" manner in which the CE story plays out, particularly given Duncan's (lame) "role" in it. Not that rape in Canada (where DAO is "from") is quite the same sociological disorder to deal with as ethnic cleansing in Croatia, but for sure there are better and worse ways of depicting rapist villainy in fiction. But I'm not sure I could agree that the f!CE story is entirely agency-free. It irks me further that a single backslap from a court jester boy knocks out my tough CE regardless of sex, but once the m!CE gets through the front door, it's essentially the same fight: they both take the sword Duncan passed them and put it to good use beside buddy Soris. The m!CE does decide for himself whether to go to the estate (well, if he doesn't, the game ends heh) while the f!CE is simply there already and initially just fights to survive after someone else breaks in to throw her the sword- assistance rather than a rescue. But either way the CE is compelled to start with little armor or weaponry and then battle the arl's estate and save everyone, and the f!CE manages it with a lot less to begin with and under a lot more duress. So for agency the f!CE demonstrates it more dramatically than the m!CE... unless I misunderstand the term.
Aedlyn Tabris... not exactly lacking in agency...
"How's THAT for a knockout smackdown?!"
"Now... what was it you were saying about gutting my ignorant carcass?"
As a side note (since this hasn't been any primary concern mentioned thus far) I also noticed (due to my XP/treasure-greed) that the f!CE gets notably less XP and loot because she doesn't get to kill all those dogs and soldiers outside the estate like the male CE does. Oh- and the f!CE has her hubby-to-be slain early on while the m!CE gets to rescue his not-quite-wife (and her dialog) only to fawn all over his cousin instead if he prefers. Those sorts of story differences do irk me (a bit) from the start since they flatten out portions of the f!CE's story that remain full in the m!CE's story without any attempt to add content for balance.
Ultimately I ended up only wanting to play the flatter f!version anyway, so then I didn't notice any longer... Equality by omission!
Oh, and no worries on ranting. You express yourself very well- clearly, poignantly, and focused- so if that's ranting, bring it! ;-) I always appreciate an eye-opening...
Modifié par Bhryaen, 05 juin 2013 - 04:00 .
#125
Posté 19 mai 2013 - 02:16
Jestina
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- Members
- 2 379 messages
This game isn't set in the 1960s+, which seems to be what you are getting at. Women in this game are treated as equals mostly...which is better than what most games treat them as(sex objects). In our real world history women had very little or no equality...and still don't in some parts of the world.
