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[Bardox9]

Of all the people in all of DA, no one needs to die more than Vaughan. Ever since I first played through as a city elf I have killed him. I still prefer to play as a blood mage, but no matter the class Vaughan must die!

[JorieSilver]

Bhryaen wrote...

I think I may be getting your point (or points, rather) now... maybe not.

Are you saying that it would make more sense if, for the m!CE, they'd, say, made Vaughan a Vaughanessa or made Vaughan gay and then had the m!CE abducted in the same way as the f!CE does but this time with all the groom's men? (Or that Vaughan and his boys are bi and just abducts everyone?) Or that the f!CE doesn't get abducted either but has to take the same route as the m!CE in order to save her hubby-to-be from rape? Despite rejecting the claims that "Well, this is medieval, so therefore it has to be backward" when Thedas simply isn't really either, I'd still have to say that that kind of scenario would be... radically different. ;-) Good luck with that! No, really, it would be interesting, and, well, I'm not dyed-in-the-wool enough with societal norms to feel any difficulty with it- would roll with it probably without raising an eyebrow, just out for Vaughan's head in a different way. But still- it would be new.

I'm not sure if I feel it's a failure that Bioware didn't do it, but it's certainly not particularly pioneering the way they conceived it. The way it's setup is pretty much the same schtick you'd see in, say, a 1920s movie:

F-victim: "I can't pay the rent!"
M-villain: "You must pay the rent!"
M-rescuer: "I'll pay the rent!"

Yet actually I find that I liked the difference between the two CE stories, mostly because I like the way the game lets you have a different experience within the same origin, able to either fight your way in or fight your way out to save everyone- but then again I haven't really been seeing the difference as a gender-orchestrated or gender-normative storyline, just a storyline. I've enjoyed having an Option A and Option B that played out differently. It's an extra step for me to see it as necessarily constructed by gender-specific stereotype roles- whether deliberately or sociopathologically... though it is true that only the CE origin changes key (pivotal) components of the playthrough based on your character's sex.

I mean, the different race origins also render fundamentally different experiences, and those of a different "race" than the perceived dominant one in real life society might be offended by the portrayal of elves in DAO, saying there shouldn't be racial inequality in DAO either. I'm part Amerindian and normally take to elves, but the sterile, generally 2-dimensionally-portrayed Dalish just don't do it for me. Not to mention the propagation of the myth of the noble savage who's always primitive and hot-headed and incapable of building their own civilization. So I could shake a fist at Bioware for having maintained the same stereotypes we always get tossed our way. But given the medium is a game rather than a history book- with a world setting based only very loosely on real world entities- I suppose I don't find myself alienated by it. I can put aside real world social dynamics and adjust to the ones in the game. (OK, I know the game exists as a subset within the larger culture, but still...)

But, yeah, there's a pattern that unfolds. You're absolutely right about the inaccuracy of the "men rape, women get raped" theme- or at least the statistics in real society are less overwhelmingly one-sided as they tend to be represented in art and the media. I could launch into a hyper/hypoagency discussion, but, well... it's just a DAO thread. Suffice it to say that violence by women vs men is underreported and violence by men vs women overreported... and that's in the real world, so there's no reason DAO's relatively egalitarian storylines should be even more lopsided, what with women more than welcome to arm themselves and fight, as you mention.

You may also be right about the "haphazard" manner in which the CE story plays out, particularly given Duncan's (lame) "role" in it. Not that rape in Canada (where DAO is "from") is quite the same sociological disorder to deal with as ethnic cleansing in Croatia, but for sure there are better and worse ways of depicting rapist villainy in fiction. But I'm not sure I could agree that the f!CE story is entirely agency-free. It irks me further that a single backslap from a court jester boy knocks out my tough CE regardless of sex, but once the m!CE gets through the front door, it's essentially the same fight: they both take the sword Duncan passed them and put it to good use beside buddy Soris. The m!CE does decide for himself whether to go to the estate (well, if he doesn't, the game ends heh) while the f!CE is simply there already and initially just fights to survive after someone else breaks in to throw her the sword- assistance rather than a rescue. But either way the CE is compelled to start with little armor or weaponry and then battle the arl's estate and save everyone, and the f!CE manages it with a lot less to begin with and under a lot more duress. So for agency the f!CE demonstrates it more dramatically than the m!CE... unless I misunderstand the term.

Aedlyn Tabris... not exactly lacking in agency...

...

I wasn't talking about the character as a whole, but in that moment, no matter what the f!CE is feeling or thinking or doing or saying, she is taken by Vaughan and his goonies. In that moment, she is robbed of her decision making where the m!CE is not. He is allowed to take action, while she is forced into a position of reaction. If you wanted to eliminate the difference, I think there are a bunch of ways this could have gone--f!CE rushing in to save her intended from rape is one, or we could just take rape off the table altogether. Say Vaughan comes into the alienage. Instead of threatening rape, he's just come to have a laugh at the locals. Shianni whacks him over the head as before. Then he comes back for the elves that wronged him, m!CE included. Suddenly, everyone's on an even playing field.

I just think it's in poor taste to include so much rape when you haven't thought it through. For one, I still think Duncan could have easily prevented the whole thing from happening. This could have eaisly been fixed with a line about Duncan walking away from the ceremony, as others have suggested. I still would have taken issue, just not with Duncan's character. This origin highlights this internal war that Dragon Age seems to have within itself: is Ferelden a sexist nation where women are inferior to men, or is it gender equal? I don't think there is a clear answer in-game, and what we see isn't a moderate position--it's two extremes. It's "women are capable warriors and politicians and mages and knights, etc.", and it's "women are regularly raped and treated like dirt."

Not that I don't think there is a time and a place for this kind of story. For example, I love Mad Men--the world in which it occurs is incredibly sexist, but the story it tells about gender is decidedly not. But in Dragon Age, I feel like there is a fundamental disconnect between the way women are often treated and the roles they play in society. We're told that a female PC becomes the only female Grey Warden in Ferelden (even for that brief period when all the other ones are still alive), but we regularly see women in other combat roles. Cauthrien is a notable example, but there are a whole slew of nameless female knights running around Ostagar as well. Despite this, npcs regularly express surprise that a woman is running around cutting down darkspawn. I just want to shout at them--look around you! There are women fighting everywhere! Why are you so surprised??? 

*Sten is an exception, because his culture *does* have clear cut gender roles. 

So this is what we're left with: women hold nearly all the same powers as men, except when it comes to their bodies. Then they are constantly under the threat of rape and occasionally being turned into broodmothers. That, to me, says more about the people writing the story than the story they intended to tell. It feels like they tried to present a gender equal world and then literally could not do it because their preconceptions about how women should be treated in a pseudo-medieval world got in the way. It's like they said "we need to put women in positions of power! Yay subverting expectations about gender roles in fantasy," and then five minutes later said "this is fantasy! People need to be surprised about women doing man things! When's the last time we implied that someone got raped?"

It's a failure of world building--a subtle one, but one that deserves attention because the gaming industry is so sexist, and because Bioware is at least trying--and, in my opinion, failing. They're one of the good ones, but I think they're not quite there. 

I'm afraid that my point(s) are a little scattered, because my OP was all sorts of rage about Duncan. Two months removed from playing it, I'm pretty well over my initial anger, but I still have a lot of feelings about the way the origin played out and its place in the larger narrative of the game. Now I'm sitting here talking about something else entirely. I just want to reiterate that my reaction to Duncan's inaction remains the same. It's what led me to this train of thought about sexism in the DA, and I still believe all of my previous points are valid. It's just that it's not simply a problem with the CE origin (though I think it was particularly offensive). It's a problem with the way Dragon Age treats women during the whole game, and you can't really fix it by smushing around the events of this single origin, thought that might have been a start.

Bhryaen wrote...
Oh, and no worries on ranting. You express yourself very well- clearly, poignantly, and focused- so if that's ranting, bring it! ;-) I always appreciate an eye-opening...

Well, shucks.  This has actually been the most civilized exchange I've ever had on these forums. It's been a real pleasure.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 20 mai 2013 - 06:13 .

[Bhryaen]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
I'm afraid that my point(s) are a little scattered, because my OP was all sorts of rage about Duncan.

Maintaining a thread discussion which continues to evolve in a life of its own? Never found that to be a sign of disarray.

Yes, the contradictions in social progress levels are rife in DAO. Another example would be Redcliffe- presumably a normal Ferelden town- where there are no women militia and pretty much all the women of the town wear dresses and hide in the Chantry. (Sten has an interesting comment in Redcliffe, however, where he scoffs at the militia, saying that qunari women would be helping fight... despite all his other "women don't fight" comments. lol "You are a woman, so, of course, you are genetically incapable of fighting, but, of course, you would fight to defend your home... Erm... It is the wisdom of the qun...") The castle too has only male soldiery. But then in your travels you see regular women bandits, Chasind, women gang members and leaders, and, as you say, soldiers in the army all the way up to Cauthrien. Is Redcliffe that much more backward than the rest of Ferelden?

The writers don't seem to have been in synch on how they were approaching it, though it would've been a lot more interesting if they'd have gone all the way with egalitarianism to show how it wouldn't entirely eliminate gender as an issue in society. They'd have had to be a lot more inventive as well, challenging themselves that way. It wouldn't have been so outlandish if Bevin had been Bevina or if they'd had some cowering Redcliffe men (besides just the young and old) who stayed in the Chantry while some of the women took up a sword or bow... or got drunk at Lloyd's. And speaking of Lloyd, he gropes Bella regularly and she's so desperate that she keeps working there, but then she's the one to immediately inherit his tavern if he dies or even ends up managing it if Lloyd is made to fight and survives. Plenty of "say, what?" examples...

And obviously I agree on Duncan's role. That idea about him getting a line at the end of the pre-ceremony discussion was good- like, "I will take my leave for now- though I am tempted to stay just to spite you for your earlier insistence I leave. *grin* I will return in a few hours. There are many things to discuss, but for now enjoy your ceremony." (What? OK, so I don't have a career writing for Bioware games...)

As to the CE's initial plot development, you're right, of course: it's entirely based on the CE's sex and it applies an abductee role (hypoagency) for the f!CE and a rescuer role (hyperagency) for the m!CE. But the difference ends as soon as the f!CE gets a sword. And at that point the f!CE is the one that really impresses (me anyway), even despite how much more quantitatively the m!CE ends up going through to rescue everyone. I think the f!CE's story- her wedding becoming an initiation into her life as a rogue or warrior- is what Bioware really intended for the CE origin in general, the m!CE path being the obligatory one. After all, this was the official CE game poster:



I suppose I feel like "defending" the f!CE's origin experience just because it's the one I prefer. I love games that start you with pretty much nothing but whatever you  selected during character creation- and also which make it feel realistic that you overcome those overwhelming odds in front of you. It may be irksome that it's only the f!CE that gets to have the experience (or is subjected to it, as you might word it) and that it echoes all sorts of other "women  are rape-prone" moments in DAO and elsewhere, but it's also fairly awesome that you can be in that vulnerable a situation and then turn it around so brilliantly through your actions. That's so much different than just, "Uh, I guess we should do something. Anyone got a sword? I'm so mad!" Either way, Adaia's training is at last put to good use, but so exceptionally in the f!CE's case.

But your main concern is that it's only the f!CEs who experience it the one way- almost as if it's exclusively an f!thing- not necessarily that there's an abduction of the CE in general, no?

You know, what might've been a better method of equalizing the CE options without removing the abductee/ rescuer paths would've been to add some non-sex-based story choices that could land your CE in either position- as you suggested earlier, actions changing events rather than sex alone. Like for the m!CE he could end up being abducted if he smarts off too many times at Vaughan. They'd take him with the women not because they wanted to rape him as well but because they wanted to torture him. Obviously the cellar has lots of prison cells and a nice torture chamber (unless that's just only Howe's doing). But if the m!CE stays quiet at the ceremony or is less insulting, just attempting to plead for mercy- or perhaps has run off to his home, refusing to be married and pleading with Cyrion to let him stay single- the rape abduction happens, but then he proceeds normally for the rest.

On the other hand, for the f!CE if she smarts off too much or gets physical they might consider her too "resistant" and leave her behind after knocking her out, not wanting further trouble. Or to make it more equal, if she smarts off they take her for the same torture reason- much like they took the "one who bottled me." And if the f!CE doesn't smart off, maybe Vaughan comes up to her appraisingly at one point saying, "Not my type... just a face I'd rather slap out of my sight"- and she goes unconscious. Or the same new option as the m!CE of refusing to be wed, leaving the wedding scene after talking with Duncan in order to plead with Cyrion or something, whereby the abduction happens while she's away, only for her to discover upon leaving her home that something has to be done. Then the f!CE proceeds like the m!CE to fight her way into the Arl's estate. Hell, in that case her hubby-to-be could be a temporary companion.

I'd definitely go for that change- and that doesn't sound like an oppressive or elaborate amount of extra scripting and voice acting to pull it off either- though it wouldn't exactly eliminate the "women get rape threats, men don't" theme, and of course rape then remains "on the table". But still... to have a f!CE who does the rescue bit instead... I'd play one of those as well...

As to "Madmen" I've never seen a single episode. Looks too flagrantly sexist for me to indulge, consistently thus or no.

UnderstandingMitosis...
This has actually been the most civilized exchange I've ever had on these forums. It's been a real pleasure.

Wow, can't say I don't enjoy that distinction. :innocent: Civilized exchange is so much more preferable after all... Now back to my daily ritual dismemberments...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 21 mai 2013 - 05:01 .

[JorieSilver]

As an aside: that's the thing about Mad Men--sure, there's Don Draper, incurable womanizer, but there's also a cast of complex female characters that I think really steal the show. Just from the outset, you've got Peggy trying to make it in a man's world (with variable success), Joan living as queen of her castle (with incredibly complex feelings about it), and Betty suffering through exactly the sort of life that women are supposed to want (in the most psychotic way possible).

It's a good show, and you should give it a chance. There is a definitely narrative about gender in that show--and it's not "women should stay in their place." It's about women carving out their places in a world that tries to funnel them into a particular (and subservient) role. This doesn't make any of these women happy, and *that's* an interesting story. And it's for me a prime example of not only an impeccably crafted world, but also one of a sexist world not being equal to sexist story-telling.

Also, I will give you that the f!CE's story is probably more interesting, but what I took offense to was that Bioware seemed to think it was inherently gendered.

Eh. It is what it is. I finally feel like I've successfully articulated my feelings, which is good.

*note: hyper and hypo-agency are new words for me. Thanks for enlightening me--I've got some reading to do now

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 21 mai 2013 - 06:17 .

[SerTabris]

I sometimes get a feeling from Redcliffe and Ostagar that the more sex-based things there are out of sync with the rest of the game, or perhaps were written earlier. In-universe, perhaps Redcliffe is somewhat more backward than Denerim. I think that outside the origin stories, it's also somewhat more noticeable if you're human; for some of the places that got sexist dialogue in my HN playthrough, I had racist dialogue as CE that took place instead.

[WhiteKnyght]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

 So, I picked up DA:O for the first time in a long time today...and decided to play a city elf, as I had never done that before.

I knew it was kinda rape-y, which as a lady gamer made me a little uncomfortable in the first place. I didn't really need my video games to go there, so I didn't go there. But I was looking for something new in an old game, so I went for it. It couldn't be *that* bad, right? Right????

I kinda wish I'd done it a long time ago, just so I could have realized what a total a-hole Duncan actually is.

He let trio of nobles and thier well-armed guards abduct me and my wedding party with the express intention of *raping all of us.* He did this without even a little "oh, hey guys. I'm someone who matters and is holding a really big sword. If I weren't such a douche I might decide to tell some even more important people, and that might be quite a lot of trouble for you. Maybe you should rethink you afternoon plans."

No. Instead he hands your cousin and your fiance a pretty pitiful sword and crossbow and tells *them* to go save you. Somehow, I'm supposed to be all grateful to him for conscripting me afterwards or something.

What.

And then I'm supposed to talk to this guy and take orders from this guy and talk to Alistair about this guy without ever saying "Oh, yeah. Duncan. He's the one who let some dudes rape my cousin and murder my bridesmaid when he totally could have stopped them with little effort on his part and probably no negative reprocussions."

Again I say: What?

You should notice that Duncan is like that in ALL of the origins. He lets the player get in over their heads and offers becoming a Grey Warden as a way out. The only ones he doesn't do it in are the Dwarf Commoner, Human Noble, and Circle Mage. He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

But with every last one of them, he's all "Join us, or I leave you to die."

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 22 mai 2013 - 08:29 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

It might be a good idea not to tell Alistair.

[BlueMagitek]

And, in the Mage Origin, if you play along with Irving, he actually just straight up conscripts you. ~_^

[NubzX]

Stop reading so much into games seek professional help

Modifié par NubzX, 22 mai 2013 - 10:58 .

[JorieSilver]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

UndergoingMitosis wrote...

 So, I picked up DA:O for the first time in a long time today...and decided to play a city elf, as I had never done that before.

I knew it was kinda rape-y, which as a lady gamer made me a little uncomfortable in the first place. I didn't really need my video games to go there, so I didn't go there. But I was looking for something new in an old game, so I went for it. It couldn't be *that* bad, right? Right????

I kinda wish I'd done it a long time ago, just so I could have realized what a total a-hole Duncan actually is.

He let trio of nobles and thier well-armed guards abduct me and my wedding party with the express intention of *raping all of us.* He did this without even a little "oh, hey guys. I'm someone who matters and is holding a really big sword. If I weren't such a douche I might decide to tell some even more important people, and that might be quite a lot of trouble for you. Maybe you should rethink you afternoon plans."

No. Instead he hands your cousin and your fiance a pretty pitiful sword and crossbow and tells *them* to go save you. Somehow, I'm supposed to be all grateful to him for conscripting me afterwards or something.

What.

And then I'm supposed to talk to this guy and take orders from this guy and talk to Alistair about this guy without ever saying "Oh, yeah. Duncan. He's the one who let some dudes rape my cousin and murder my bridesmaid when he totally could have stopped them with little effort on his part and probably no negative reprocussions."

Again I say: What?

You should notice that Duncan is like that in ALL of the origins. He lets the player get in over their heads and offers becoming a Grey Warden as a way out. The only ones he doesn't do it in are the Dwarf Commoner, Human Noble, and Circle Mage. He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

But with every last one of them, he's all "Join us, or I leave you to die."

Whoops, read this wrong the first time.

I'm confused. Dalish elf you go to the ruins before he arrives, and for the Dwarf Noble he completely unaware of the politics involved, as far as I know. 

I think this complaint is only applicable for the City Elf origin. 

ETA:

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

It might be a good idea not to tell Alistair.

Heehee. Just wanted to say I lol'd. Swooping is...bad.

Modifié par UndergoingMitosis, 24 mai 2013 - 03:36 .

[Ryzaki]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

It might be a good idea not to tell Alistair.

Heh love getting that -20 approval and possible automatic romance ender. No Alistair everyone doesn't share your Duncan love. Deal with it.

My Mage and DE did not want to be dragged away from their homes because Duncan needed more bodies against the blight.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 mai 2013 - 03:33 .

[KENNY4753]

Yeah Duncan is a real d-bag. Not just in the CE origin but in all of them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ryzaki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

It might be a good idea not to tell Alistair.

Heh love getting that -20 approval and possible automatic romance ender. No Alistair everyone doesn't share your Duncan love. Deal with it.

My Mage and DE did not want to be dragged away from their homes because Duncan needed more bodies against the blight.

I mean the swooping, actually.

As for the DE, that's a situation in which Duncan really is doing you a favor. He expects a high price for it, but preferring to stay where you are and die is just a little irrational. The Mage might have a more legitimate complaint, if he/she screwed Jowan over and thus isn't in massive trouble, but even then Duncan's still just being a dick for the greater good.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 mai 2013 - 06:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

He literally just swoops in for the save there, rather than doing nothing to prevent the player getting in trouble.

It might be a good idea not to tell Alistair.

Heh love getting that -20 approval and possible automatic romance ender. No Alistair everyone doesn't share your Duncan love. Deal with it.

My Mage and DE did not want to be dragged away from their homes because Duncan needed more bodies against the blight.

I mean the swooping, actually.

As for the DE, that's a situation in which Duncan really is doing you a favor. He expects a high price for it, but preferring to stay where you are and die is just a little irrational. The Mage might have a more legitimate complaint, if he/she screwed Jowan over and thus isn't in massive trouble, but even then Duncan's still just being a dick for the greater good.

Oh.

My DE would have rather died with her people. My mage was a douche and would've been fine so yeah Duncan can take that greater good and shove it. (Both took the DR and ran away laughing.) So yeah being a dick for the greater good is still being a dick.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ryzaki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Heh love getting that -20 approval and possible automatic romance ender. No Alistair everyone doesn't share your Duncan love. Deal with it.

My Mage and DE did not want to be dragged away from their homes because Duncan needed more bodies against the blight.

As for the DE, that's a situation in which Duncan really is doing you a favor. He expects a high price for it, but preferring to stay where you are and die is just a little irrational. The Mage might have a more legitimate complaint, if he/she screwed Jowan over and thus isn't in massive trouble, but even then Duncan's still just being a dick for the greater good.

My DE would have rather died with her people.

Again, that's just a little irrational.

My mage was a douche and would've been fine so yeah Duncan can take that greater good and shove it. (Both took the DR and ran away laughing.) So yeah being a dick for the greater good is still being a dick.

The mage has a more legitimate complaint than the DE, but Duncan's still thinking of the greater good. He's a dick, but things ultimately work out better for it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Double post. This computer really annoys me sometimes.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 mai 2013 - 08:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Again, that's just a little irrational.

When did I say my shem hating DE was rational? 

The mage has a more legitimate complaint than the DE, but Duncan's still thinking of the greater good. He's a dick, but things ultimately work out better for it.

And that doesn't stop him from warping my mage's life. So yeah my mage hates the guy. Loathes him. Greater good doesn't mean someone has to like ya.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mai 2013 - 01:22 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ryzaki wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Again, that's just a little irrational.

When did I say my shem hating DE was rational? 

Well, as long as we agree on that point...

The mage has a more legitimate complaint than the DE, but Duncan's still thinking of the greater good. He's a dick, but things ultimately work out better for it.

And that doesn't stop him from warping my mage's life. So yeah my mage hates the guy. Loathes him. Greater good doesn't mean someone has to like ya.

I already said the mage has some grounds to complain, didn't I?

[Ryzaki]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Well, as long as we agree on that point...

lol

I already said the mage has some grounds to complain, didn't I?

True I don't really accept the "greater good" as a means that this somehow makes Duncan less of a douche.

[Bhryaen]

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
As an aside: that's the thing about Mad Men--

Oh, I was being facetious about not watching it because it's "too sexist". I've never watched it so I wouldn't know. My real reason is that I (intentionally) have no TV and can't be bothered to hunt it down on the web (not while I'm busy enough hunting down DAO mods!). The only TV shows I do hunt down on the web are "Dr. Who", "Sherlock", and "Elementary". Maybe I'll check out "Mad Men" some time, but... meh.

UndergoingMitosis wrote...
*note: hyper and hypo-agency are new words for me. Thanks for enlightening me--I've got some reading to do now

Those are terms I picked up from a cursory investigation of evolutionary psychology, specifically an analysis of the evolutionary roots of gendered behavior- women being the protected hypo-agents due to vulnerabilities of childbearing and men being the self-sacrificing hyper-agents doing the protecting. With the evolution of a species usually taking place over millions of yrs our species is a bit radical in its ability to adapt its social behavior to a new form so rapidly. Today's most developed human societies are at best barely a century (barely decades) removed from those gendered roles being fairly static as a matter of general social composition (and most of the world is still fairly "backward"), so, yeah, contemporary artwork tends to get somewhat schizo on how it's going to portray equality... But as social progress itself improves and deepens, so will the art that trails after it...

I suppose this is why I'm more pleased than dismayed by DAO's gameworld (a bit of a trade-off), but, well, as you put it, "is what it is."

SerTabris wrote...
I sometimes get a feeling from Redcliffe and Ostagar that the more sex-based things there are out of sync with the rest of the game, or perhaps were written earlier. In-universe, perhaps Redcliffe is somewhat more backward than Denerim. I think that outside the origin stories, it's also somewhat more noticeable if you're human; for some of the places that got sexist dialogue in my HN playthrough, I had racist dialogue as CE that took place instead.

It's ridiculous in some ways. I've been noticing how pretty much the rest of Ferelden is more developed than Redcliffe- even evil Haven having women as regular cult soldiers and women villagers who fight and the otherwise primitive Dalish being pretty much 50/50- not to mention women regulars in Denerim thugs, elven mercs, Ostagar soldiers, Chasind warriors, roving adventurers, Crows, pirates, etc. But not backward Redcliffe. hehehe

There's also an odd sexism line for a male DN at the Provings where you're asked, "Is it a problem that your next opponent is a female?" (paraphrased) I mean, if it's a problem, why did she get in? And more women than Adal end up fighting in the Provings in the later game, so it's not exactly unheard-of. But I suppose I never see any female Orzammar soldiers (or fanatics), so maybe daughters can be expected just like sons to carry on the caste's career role (like Dagna expected to be a smith) in everything but the warrior caste. Anyway, lots of indecisive world-setting matters...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 26 mai 2013 - 05:05 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah I believe the thing with Orzammar is while female are fighters I don't think it's something that would be encouraged (not the least due to broodmothers *shivers*) thus why the female DN is a bit more of an oddity. Least that's the impression I got from the origin *shrugs* Similar to the DC origin really most females become noble hunters but the female DC becoming such would just be a waste of her fighting skills.

At least that's how I tried to justify it to myself. I hope that made sense XD

[Jordan]

Find the OP quite funny.

Dragon Age is not a Disney film, 'Darlin.

NOTHING is more important to Duncan than stopping the blight. Duncan can't go to war with a noble human family because they want to rape a few Elves. It's awful stuff, I'm not disputing that, but the sad truth is that it's probably also every day stuff. Imagine if Duncan had died fighting this noble family, how could he have justified his actions to himself? Okay, evil has prevailed and everyone is dead, but I did save a handful of Elves from being raped.

Let's not forget that in the Human Noble Origin Duncan demands that Bryce Cousland hand his son over to him (The Grey Wardens, die on the battlefield or die insane) in exchange for bringing Rendon Howe (a true gent who ordered the cleansing of the Cousland castle, innocents included) to justice.

Duncan is not a hero in the traditional sense. He is not Spiderman. His focus is solely on his cause, the bigger picture.

If you are too sensitive for the harsh realities of life in Dragon Age Origins, then I suggest you never leave your real-life bubble.

[JorieSilver]

ReluctantGangster wrote...

Find the OP quite funny.

Dragon Age is not a Disney film, 'Darlin.

NOTHING is more important to Duncan than stopping the blight. Duncan can't go to war with a noble human family because they want to rape a few Elves. It's awful stuff, I'm not disputing that, but the sad truth is that it's probably also every day stuff. Imagine if Duncan had died fighting this noble family, how could he have justified his actions to himself? Okay, evil has prevailed and everyone is dead, but I did save a handful of Elves from being raped.

Let's not forget that in the Human Noble Origin Duncan demands that Bryce Cousland hand his son over to him (The Grey Wardens, die on the battlefield or die insane) in exchange for bringing Rendon Howe (a true gent who ordered the cleansing of the Cousland castle, innocents included) to justice.

Duncan is not a hero in the traditional sense. He is not Spiderman. His focus is solely on his cause, the bigger picture.

If you are too sensitive for the harsh realities of life in Dragon Age Origins, then I suggest you never leave your real-life bubble.

Well, I find your post quite funny, so I guess we're even 

[Guns]

You obviously do not understand Duncan's character, or the Grey Wardens for that matter. You also lack the ability to handle darker themes and stories, like rape. Maybe you should go buy a Wii and play Mario?

Modifié par Guns, 17 juin 2013 - 09:30 .

[asmkm22]

I was always under the impression that Duncan was kind of an **** regardless of which origin you play. He basically shows up somewhere wanting to recruit a particular person to the Grey Wardens (you), and is willing to basically take advantage of your bad situation to leave you in a position where you had no other option.

Or how he emotionlessly kills that recruit who refused to drink the blood, as if he's done it a hundred times before? Well he probably has. The guy is a great study of how the psychological horror of war and evil can tear the best men down.

Basically, he seems like an "ends justifies the means" kind of guy, who has more crap to worry about than a little raping. I wouldn't be surprised if he knew exactly how it was going to play out, and let it, because he needed another Grey Warden recruit. A lot of people seem to think he's some wise old Obi-wan type character, who has a heart of gold underneath all of that gruff, which is wrong.