26 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

This is something that I feel I should understand better, though I don't. Hear me out and please explain it all to me =)

The way I see it, a demon outside the Fade can be found in two different manners. They''ve either possessed something, or they haven't. But in the games we seem to see so many more variants of this. We see,

1) "Sophia Dryden" and "her" likes, the ones who inhabit bodies that still look the part of the mortal who once wore them. These are obviously possessions.

2) Shades, explained in the codex to be demons who have not possessed anything, they're strong enough to physically manifest on the other side of the Veil on their own in the form of a Shade. Most hunger demons look like Shades, I think? (model reuse?) These would be demons who have not performed possession.

3) Rage/Desire/Pride demons outside of the Fade using their original form. What are these? Have they possessed a body and changed it or are they shades that somehow retain their own self?

4) Allure and her likes, the ones who seem bound to a specific creature yet still retain their form. Are they the same as the ones in category 3? Might not be as bound or special as I think.

5) "Possession of X" as seen in All That Remains. The names imply possession, yet the demons do not look like the human women themselves, instead having the looks of Desire demons. The names of these demons allude to humans both dead and alive at the time of the fight, so it seems unlikely these demons actually inhabit the bodies of the ones they have seemingly possessed.

It's all so very confusing and I'd love to make sense of it in my head. Right now my head can't find any patterns, so it all feels kind of random.

[Reznore57]

I think if the veil is very thin , demon can come through no?
Anyway I find demons confusing too , and it's really hard to know what happen for gameplay reason /lore reason.

Like mages turning into an abomination when back into a corner , felt like demons are just waiting in line in the fade.

You also have Denarius sending rage demons/shades after you ...I never heard of demonology in DA (though i guess it would make sense in Tevinter).

I can't answer sadly , demons and spirits just confuse me.

[Wulfram]

I'd guess that:

Shades are more less low level demons, Hunger and Sloth
Rage/Desire/Pride demons can either come through directly thanks to weak veil or some mage letting them through. Or they can choose to assume their own form if they're possessing someone - it probably depends on whether they think their own form would be a step up in combat effectiveness (or more meta-ly, whether the developers think the fight would be more cool that way).

I'd guess the "Possession of X" are the spirits that have been bound to give Quentin's project it's semblance of life. Why they're able to manifest seperately I don't know, but Quentin was clearly pursuing some rather innovative forms of magic.

[Warden661]

The way I understand it is that it's very hard for a spirit to live outside the fade without possessing something or someone.

-When mages get possessed, they become Abominations.
-When the body of dead mages gets possessed, they become Arcane Horrors
-Most spirts just possess the bodies of the non-mage dead, becoming Devouring Corpses
-A Revenant is a a corpse that was possessed by a demon of Pride IIRC.

Its been awhile since I've looked any of this up so please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[ScarMK]

3) I think it's a combination of both. In Origins we see the desire demon manifest through connor and keep it's form and pride/desire demons are considered the most powerful of all. So it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't need a host to keep their current form.

4) Never played that DLC so I know nothing about her.

5) I assume them looking like desire demons was just a model reuse since so much of DA2 was rushed.

[brushyourteeth]

The only one I think I can offer any new information on is 3. I'm almost positive that those demons can retain their physical form on this side of the veil if they're summoned by a powerful mage.

You're right -- there's a lot that doesn't seem concrete about spirits and possession. I wonder if it's fuzzy to us because it's also fuzzy to the scholars of Thedas themselves, or if it's just fuzzy because it hasn't been explained in detail yet?

[Kidd]

Reznore57 wrote...

Like mages turning into an abomination when back into a corner , felt like demons are just waiting in line in the fade

Which also begs the question, can only mages become abominations? If a non-mage is possessed, do they turn into something else? If the visually distinct demons can look that way when they've possessed somebody, does this mean it's technically better for us if it's a mage being possessed compared to a non-magic user (assuming an abomination isn't as dangerous to the populace as a rage demon is, which is my view from gameplay mechanics).

Wulfram wrote...

I'd guess the "Possession of X" are the spirits that have been bound to give Quentin's project it's semblance of life. Why they're able to manifest seperately I don't know, but Quentin was clearly pursuing some rather innovative forms of magic.

Odd how Leandra keeps her mind even while possessed though. Argh, demon science~~

brushyourteeth wrote...

The only one I think I can offer any new information on is 3. I'm almost positive that those demons can retain their physical form on this side of the veil if they're summoned by a powerful mage.

You're right -- there's a lot that doesn't seem concrete about spirits and possession. I wonder if it's fuzzy to us because it's also fuzzy to the scholars of Thedas themselves, or if it's just fuzzy because it hasn't been explained in detail yet?

I'm just hoping, if we can't straighten this out now, it's one of the two you put and not that the encounter designers paint it all with very broad and inconsistent strokes.

As for the variety 3 demon, that sounds probable. Though it must be able to pass the veil manually as well, cause I highly doubt anybody in the Denerim alienage summoned rage demons. May be misremembering something there though.

[leighzard]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Which also begs the question, can only mages become abominations?

I'd love to know the answer to that one.  How and when does one become an abomination?  Because from Honnleath, it seemed that demon that was in the cat intended to keep the little girl looking like a little girl.  Same for the Desire demon that had her hooks in Connor.  Cause he was a mage. Was he an abomination?  Just possesed?  Something else?  It hurts my head.

As for the variety 3 demon, that sounds probable. Though it must be able to pass the veil manually as well, cause I highly doubt anybody in the Denerim alienage summoned rage demons. May be misremembering something there though.

I think that the veil was very thin there because of what happened in the orphanage so they could just come through.

Modifié par leborum, 13 mars 2013 - 07:42 .

[hazarkazra]

It's impossible for a demon to just show up in the moral world, at least for a prolonged time. I think the point can be made that in some cases the veil is thin enough to pass through momentarily, I hardly think a demon would survive long outside of the Fade without possession. I think the most lore friendly explanation is that at the first tier demons (Pride, Desire) you encounter are all possessing someone. I think they can keep their 'human' shape but this takes effort and when they are confronting someone they can trow their full force against them.

I think most Shades and Rage demons are demons pulled from the Fade through a summoning ritual, which is the only way besides possession they can manifest themselves into this world. Seeing that summoning demons seems only possible through blood magic they probably can manifest through the use of lifeforce gained through the spell?

Cornered mages turning into abominations can only truly happen when the demon can communicate with the mage and I think this only happens at places where the Veil is thin. Seeing that the Band of Tree uncovered that Kirkwall has a pretty thin veil I would say that this is only reason possession could happen so easily in DA II. Ironically pretty much ever Circle tower has a thin veil. Still, in normal circumstances finding a demon is slightly harder and requires you to make contact in the Fade itself, I would say.

[Fredward]

Didn't that templar recruit bro in DA2 turn into an abomination? If I'm remembering correctly. That would mean non-mages can also turn into abominations but ONLY if a mage "helps" the demon into the person's body.

[Kidd]

leborum wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Which also begs the question, can only mages become abominations?

I'd love to know the answer to that one.  How and when does one become an abomination?  Because from Honnleath, it seemed that demon that was in the cat intended to keep the little girl looking like a little girl.  Same for the Desire demon that had her hooks in Connor.  Cause he was a mage. Was he an abomination?  Just possesed?  Something else?  It hurts my head.

Oww, that's indeed very head hurt-worthy. Why was Connor not becoming an abomination? He's a mage, and possessed mages become abominations. Or are abominations we see a separate kind of demon from the usual ones or something, while Connor attracted a genuine Desire demon?

I suppose Kitty wanted to make the girl into another Sophia Dryden, so that one makes sense I think. She's no mage, thus the abomination issue doesn't exist.

[TEWR]

leborum wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Which also begs the question, can only mages become abominations?

I'd love to know the answer to that one.  How and when does one become an abomination?  Because from Honnleath, it seemed that demon that was in the cat intended to keep the little girl looking like a little girl.  Same for the Desire demon that had her hooks in Connor.  Cause he was a mage. Was he an abomination?  Just possesed?  Something else?  It hurts my head.

An Abomination is defined as any Mage -- which the Honnleath girl is implied to be just like her father/grandfather -- whose body has a denizen of the Fade inside of it. The exact nature of possession differs depending on if it's a Spirit or a Demon inhabiting the body or consciousness and the nature of the possession itself, but in the end if you share a body with a spirit (all Fade denizens are spirits) you'll be considered an Abomination.

Connor's able to retain some self-awareness because he freely made the deal with the Demon, as opposed to the Demon forcibly possessing him. Even though it's controlling him from the Fade, he still counts as an Abomination. You don't need to physically share a body with a denizen of the Fade to be classified as an Abomination. Sharing a consciousness also counts.

 If a non-mage is possessed, do they turn into something else?

Non-Mages can indeed become possessed, but they are not Abominations. Their powers are limited to the strength of the non-Mage and the power/danger of the Demon that did the possessing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mars 2013 - 08:13 .

[ScarMK]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

leborum wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Which also begs the question, can only mages become abominations?

I'd love to know the answer to that one.  How and when does one become an abomination?  Because from Honnleath, it seemed that demon that was in the cat intended to keep the little girl looking like a little girl.  Same for the Desire demon that had her hooks in Connor.  Cause he was a mage. Was he an abomination?  Just possesed?  Something else?  It hurts my head.

Oww, that's indeed very head hurt-worthy. Why was Connor not becoming an abomination? He's a mage, and possessed mages become abominations. Or are abominations we see a separate kind of demon from the usual ones or something, while Connor attracted a genuine Desire demon?

I suppose Kitty wanted to make the girl into another Sophia Dryden, so that one makes sense I think. She's no mage, thus the abomination issue doesn't exist.

Connor was not "physically" an abomination since Morrigan/Wynne point out he is being controlled from the fade, and given how he occasionally breaks through from emotional trauma, (Isolde saying that fighting/violence terrifies him), it seems to be a sort of mind control.  I think to for the mage to have their physical self disfigured, a demon/spirit has to physically and forcibly possess them.  

[Dutchess]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Didn't that templar recruit bro in DA2 turn into an abomination? If I'm remembering correctly. That would mean non-mages can also turn into abominations but ONLY if a mage "helps" the demon into the person's body.

Even better. He turned into a Shade and let several abominations rise from the ground out of nowhere. Neither should be possible as far as I understand the lore.

[hazarkazra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Connor's able to retain some self-awareness because he freely made the deal with the Demon, as opposed to the Demon forcibly possessing him.

I think it's not unlikely that some sort of 'crossroad demon' thing takes place and the demon can only take full control after fullfilling the 'contract'. 

Couldn't it also be a preference? It has been said that Fade spirits dont experience life like we do and thus they are jealous of us. Wouldn't it be considered 'fun', atleast for a while, by a demon to make sure the possessed retains some of his personality (and thus spark of life) so they can enjoy life like only a moral could? I'm mainly refering to Allure's behavior in the Exiled Prince DLC or that Desire demon with her templar in the Mage Tower.

Modifié par hazarkazra, 13 mars 2013 - 08:16 .

[leighzard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

An Abomination is defined as any Mage -- which the Honnleath girl is implied to be just like her father/grandfather -- whose body has a denizen of the Fade inside of it. The exact nature of possession differs depending on if it's a Spirit or a Demon inhabiting the body, but in the end if you share a body with a spirit (all Fade denizens are spirits) you'll be considered an Abomination.

Connor's able to retain some self-awareness because he freely made the deal with the Demon, as opposed to the Demon forcibly possessing him.

So Wynne and Anders are both abominations? Their relationships with their spirit buddies doesn't strike me as..umm..abominable. Towards the end of DA2 I was starting to wonder about Anders, though. On the other hand, I do like concise, clear-cut answers, so thanks for that!

[ScarMK]

hazarkazra wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Connor's able to retain some self-awareness because he freely made the deal with the Demon, as opposed to the Demon forcibly possessing him.

I think it's not unlikely that some sort of 'crossroad demon' thing takes place and the demon can only take full control after fullfilling the 'contract'. 

Couldn't it also be a preference? It has been said that Fade spirits dont experience life like we do and thus they are jealous of us. Wouldn't it be considered 'fun', atleast for a while, by a demon to make sure the possessed retains some of his personality (and thus spark of life) so they can enjoy life like only a moral could? 

According to Justice, only demons envy/desire a hold in the real world.  While spirits, (valor, justice, whatever) pity mortals.  Given how a few demons say something along the lines of "It would be nice to see the mortal world through your eyes", it seems to point to that they cannot experience the world as we do and require a mortal body. 

[TEWR]

leborum wrote...

So Wynne and Anders are both abominations? Their relationships with their spirit buddies doesn't strike me as..umm..abominable. Towards the end of DA2 I was starting to wonder about Anders, though. On the other hand, I do like concise, clear-cut answers, so thanks for that!

Technically, yes they are. While I think there should be different classifications of possession depending on the nature of it -- as Wynne and Anders (at first for the latter) are different -- they do technically, as it stands, fall under the classification of Abominationhood. 

[Reznore57]

I'm not sure Wynne and Anders are different cases.
Wynne is just a more stable person , she's at the end of her life and pretty much in peace with everything.

We saw what happen to Anders ,how he changes Justice into , well , what the chantry would call a demon.
I don't think something as righteous as Justice will go with "yeah let's put a hidden bomb that could probably hit innocent people..."
That's a very twisted idea of what Justice stands for , IMHO.

Now I wonder if it can go the other way around , a demon that grows soft because of the influence of humans.

[hazarkazra]

Reznore57 wrote...

I'm not sure Wynne and Anders are different cases.
Wynne is just a more stable person , she's at the end of her life and pretty much in peace with everything.

We saw what happen to Anders ,how he changes Justice into , well , what the chantry would call a demon.
I don't think something as righteous as Justice will go with "yeah let's put a hidden bomb that could probably hit innocent people..."
That's a very twisted idea of what Justice stands for , IMHO.

Now I wonder if it can go the other way around , a demon that grows soft because of the influence of humans.

I think it's also the matter of the kind of spirit, it has been heavily suggested that Wynne had a connection with a spirt of Compassion which a lot harder to pervert then Justice.I  think a spirit cannot experience more then what he is.

Thats why I also think that demons can't grow soft, I think they will always be drawn towards the base emotions that perverted them and like an addict will always crave more.

After all, if demons could grow soft, wouldn't Anders be able to turn Justice aswell?

[Ex-Paladin]

hazarkazra wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

I'm not sure Wynne and Anders are different cases.
Wynne is just a more stable person , she's at the end of her life and pretty much in peace with everything.

We saw what happen to Anders ,how he changes Justice into , well , what the chantry would call a demon.
I don't think something as righteous as Justice will go with "yeah let's put a hidden bomb that could probably hit innocent people..."
That's a very twisted idea of what Justice stands for , IMHO.

Now I wonder if it can go the other way around , a demon that grows soft because of the influence of humans.

I think it's also the matter of the kind of spirit, it has been heavily suggested that Wynne had a connection with a spirt of Compassion which a lot harder to pervert then Justice.I  think a spirit cannot experience more then what he is.

Thats why I also think that demons can't grow soft, I think they will always be drawn towards the base emotions that perverted them and like an addict will always crave more.

After all, if demons could grow soft, wouldn't Anders be able to turn Justice aswell?

Technically, Anders' anger and hate towards the chantry, templars, and the circle did turn Justice. Justice turned into Vengeance, which is more demon I'd say. But Justice still believes himself to BE justice, which is normal for someone seeking vengeance upon someone, believing their vengeance is justice against that person.

[hazarkazra]

Ex-Paladin wrote...
Technically, Anders' anger and hate towards the chantry, templars, and the circle did turn Justice. Justice turned into Vengeance, which is more demon I'd say. But Justice still believes himself to BE justice, which is normal for someone seeking vengeance upon someone, believing their vengeance is justice against that person.

Yes, but especially the rivalry path of Anders reveals that the odds of getting Vengeance back to Justice are pretty low. It was more ment of an example that while it is easy to pervert something, once perverted it seems pretty impossible to turn it back to something 'good' again.

[Ex-Paladin]

hazarkazra wrote...

Ex-Paladin wrote...
Technically, Anders' anger and hate towards the chantry, templars, and the circle did turn Justice. Justice turned into Vengeance, which is more demon I'd say. But Justice still believes himself to BE justice, which is normal for someone seeking vengeance upon someone, believing their vengeance is justice against that person.

Yes, but especially the rivalry path of Anders reveals that the odds of getting Vengeance back to Justice are pretty low. It was more ment of an example that while it is easy to pervert something, once perverted it seems pretty impossible to turn it back to something 'good' again.

Oh, yes, definitely. I don't think you can turn a perverted spirit back to its "good" self again. Which is sad cause I miss the old Justice

[Chiramu]

BoBear wrote...


-When mages get possessed, they become Abominations.

Don't have to be a mage to be an abomination as they've shown us in Origins and DA2.

Just have to be a vessel for possession.

[dragonflight288]

leborum wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

An Abomination is defined as any Mage -- which the Honnleath girl is implied to be just like her father/grandfather -- whose body has a denizen of the Fade inside of it. The exact nature of possession differs depending on if it's a Spirit or a Demon inhabiting the body, but in the end if you share a body with a spirit (all Fade denizens are spirits) you'll be considered an Abomination.

Connor's able to retain some self-awareness because he freely made the deal with the Demon, as opposed to the Demon forcibly possessing him.

So Wynne and Anders are both abominations? Their relationships with their spirit buddies doesn't strike me as..umm..abominable. Towards the end of DA2 I was starting to wonder about Anders, though. On the other hand, I do like concise, clear-cut answers, so thanks for that!

To this, I feel a quote from Morrigan works. The warden asks about Flemeth and whether she is an abomination or not. And then asks if abominations are usually insane horrors. Morrigan's response is quite poignant.

Morrigan: How often is this usually? Is it always? If it's not always, then when is it not so?

In the case of Anders and Wynne, we know they aren't insane horrors...although Anders may be considered that when he loses control and Justice/Vengeance is running amok, but following the chantry's definition of what an abomination is, a mage possessed by a Fade spirit, then those two are abominations.

And demons are Fade Spirits, no different than Justice of Faith. All spirits of the Fade seek to represent a virtue, and live up to that virtue. Demons are classified as such, usually by representing vices, but mostly because they are interested in the mortal world, wheras the spirits who are considered more benevolent or benign, actually simply couldn't care less about the mortal world, and if they do think of mortals, it's in pity.