245 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

I for one fully support Phil Hornshaw's right to voice his wrong opinions.

[AchesOfDoom]

I want to salute all the Mass Effect team for this great game and DLC. Haters gonna hate.
I admit I once was very upset about the ending...but the I realized...it's not bad at all..you need just to accept it, and let your high expectations to rest. There is plenty more time for Bioware to take a step in the light.

[HolyAvenger]

isnudo wrote...

Actually, I see what he's saying. And I definitely agree that whilst it may be good in it's own right (though in ways it isn't. Sorry, can't get behind the clone thing) it really doesn't work as a part of ME3. Actually, I should clarify and say I haven't actually played it, but I've Youtubed it, and it really doesn't seem to gel with the rest of the game.

I don't think a bit of fan pandering is a bad thing, but this DLC seems to be 90% fan pandering. It's kind of an easy way out, you know? The thing is, it doesn't fix many of the perceived issues with ME3. ME3's plot had problems and Citadel doesn't do anything to show that the writing could even have been better. Strip away the pandering and it's more of the stuff that was wrong with ME3's writing. So I'd hope the lesson learned isn't that you can write whatever foolishness you want if you don't take it seriously.

 

Those issues are NEVER going to be fixed. They are far too ingrained into the game. Expecting that to change is unrealistic. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Phil's an idiot. Citadel is a love letter from the developers to the players. It was great on nearly every level. All games and DLCs should be made with that much love. Its a great sign for the future.

I agree - Citadel didn't change the nature of the overall story, nor did it change the ultimate outcome.

Sorry, but spoiler here - Shepard still dies at the end (or gets his/her mystery breath). My opinion is that the devs wanted to give us something fun and light-hearted, partly because they appreciate us (well, most of us anyway), partly to have fun themselves, and partly to lighten up an otherwise dark story.

I think there's been a history of humor, cheesy and otherwise, in past BioWare games that Phil must have missed or forgotten about. Exhibit A: Minsc in Baldur's Gate - delightful character indeed, with lines that are great because they're so over-the-top and cheesy/silly imo. Baldur's Gate was relatively dark (considering characters like Jon Irenicus and your psycho half-brother Sarevok, plus the godhood thing, etc.) - yet the BG games still had plenty of humor.

Aside from Minsc, you might want to remember goofy characters like Noober in BG. Or, for example, Sir Roderick Ponce von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard (and the soooo OP Mirabelle) in Jade Empire. I don't think having the occasional cheesy bit of humor or fun DLC indicates that BioWare is going to cave in and make every ending or story DLC filled with sunshine and fraking rainbows.

[AllThatJazz]

I disagree strongly with much of what he says. Nothing wrong with a bit of light-hearted fan service to see the trilogy out. And so what if it placates some of the still-angry fans? Isn't it better to have fewer people ticked off, especially if those people are an important part of your fanbase?

But I think he has a point - this shouldn't be reduced to a 'fans just want a happy ending' scenario by Bioware (even though I admit it's what I wanted ), it is about having a consistent and meaningful ending, rather than simply a happy one. And Bioware do need to tell the story they want to tell without worrying about such things - they shouldn't be scared to kill off the protagonist or kill off other beloved characters, or even end their own universe for the sake of providing a happy ending and avoiding fan-rage.

To be fair though, I do think Bio understand this - precisely because they didn't change the ending to be a definitively happy one. They quite deliberately placed their 'fanservice dlc' in the middle of the game, where it arguably makes less sense, in order to not compromise the ending that they wanted for the game. Okay, it isn't a great ending, it does lack consistency, but it's still the ending that they wanted and that they wrote, with only minor adjustments (EC). In fact, given that the EC did change the endings (or at least make the open-endedness a little less bleak) in order to attempt to please the angry fans, shouldn't that be the focus of this guy's ire rather than Citadel, which is just a bit of a fun and silly swansong to a trilogy that is now over?

[HolyAvenger]

Furthermore, if you aren't gonna party before the world's gonna end...when the heck else are you gonna party?

To me, it really strikes a note as one last hope spot before we head into the bleakness that is the true ending.

[hiraeth]

I don't know why so many people (not everyone, granted) are so black-and-white when it comes to Citadel DLC. I sometimes feel like you have to love it or people call you bitter and unappreciative. I appreciated the jokes, and it was fun, and I'll probably replay it many times, but that doesn't mean it was flawless. Citadel in the larger context of the war is ridiculous to me--I'm all for some R&R, but this felt like a happy dream moreso than something that would realistically happen in the MEU. Personally, it really broke the momentum of the story when I restarted a character and saw the Shore Leave message in my inbox. Furthermore, it felt like a HUGE serving of pandering to fans--from Blasto to Miranda and Jack's sexual tension, it wreaked of there being a checklist somewhere where writers would just check off a box on the list of fan requests and put in a one-liner to placate those fans.

I actually agree with a decent amount in this article. And I also really enjoyed the DLC and am very grateful that BW released a more character-focused DLC as their final content. It's possible to see both sides and not insult people who disagree.

Modifié par MassEffectFShep, 13 mars 2013 - 09:06 .

[Spartas Husky]

I ...agree with one thing. This Citadel DLC is feel good story telling, your squadmates are defeinitely not in character for it... funny but too many jokes.. Whether that is in fact good story telling nor not is to each to decide.

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 13 mars 2013 - 09:14 .

[Legbiter]

I disagree with him. The love bleeds out of every pixel in that DLC.

[TSA_383]

Phil's completely right.

When I played the Citadel DLC I went Thessia>Citadel>Cronos

It was like the whole crew (Liara in particular) had some kind of messed up multiple personality disorder.

Citadel is like high-budget fanfiction. It's fun, but when it's forced into the middle of the established plot it doesn't really work.

[Someone With Mass]

TSA_383 wrote...

Phil's completely right.

When I played the Citadel DLC I went Thessia>Citadel>Cronos

It was like the whole crew (Liara in particular) had some kind of messed up multiple personality disorder.

Citadel is like high-budget fanfiction. It's fun, but when it's forced into the middle of the established plot it doesn't really work.

Not that the established plot works either.

[Applepie_Svk]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...


I agree - Citadel didn't change the nature of the overall story, nor did it change the ultimate outcome.

and see for that image inside his review... that´s your answer.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 13 mars 2013 - 09:26 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

Couldn't agree more Phil

Modifié par Dr. Megaverse, 13 mars 2013 - 09:36 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

[...] So while I get it — it’s “fun” to have “closure” with “our” characters — this isn’t a great way to get it. Citadel feels like a piece of fanfiction meant to serve fans’ goofy desires to get exactly what they want out of characters, whether those things are true to those characters or not. Tali sings and Wrex dances, for crap’s sake. [...]

I actually kind of agree with this sentiment, especially the underlined. Some of the stuff in the DLC was great, but some of it I felt disrespected the characters by having them do anything for a laugh.

I also agree that the DLC for all its fun feels manipulative. I don't see it as a genuine "gift" to their fans and a celebration of the series, I see it as PR. They need very badly to end on a good note, and what's the safest way to keep everyone happy? Meaningless fluff.

I bought the DLC because I heard good things about it from my peers and I wanted to say goodbye to the characters. In the end though, it doesn't make me trust BioWare any more than I did before. I'm still going to be wary of purchases from them from now on. And the problem with games like DA3 is that they won't have a cast full of characters I feel invested in to lean on.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 13 mars 2013 - 09:39 .

[dreamgazer]

Why so serious, Phil?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

We got a crap ending to the game, an obstinate management that won't budge on giving one of the endings any closure more than a 1/4 second gasp, and a group of writers who think we, the loyal fans of the series deserved more.

IMO the DLC is perfect played after the high EMS destroy ending. The caveat.... Several months later..... Ignore the remarks that there is a war with the reapers going on (LA LA LA LA) ..... do everything in the DLC, save the party for the absolute last thing you do and when you finish the party, talk to all the characters in the aftermath of the party, then take the disk out of the tray and put it away. Do not return to the Normandy. It is the perfect ending.

[Bizantura]

No lip service, now too much lipservice!! Poor Bioware.....

After pondering I dont agree at all with him.  So a lot of consumers won't all take bad writing of ME3's ending.  Who introduces a new villain in the last 10 minutes of the story for goodnes sake!!  A lot of other consumers pointed out the inconsistencies in the narrative better then I ever could.

Of course this dlc is to please the fans, its rather blatant.  So no I don't think Bioware from now on will only write fanservice stories.  However they maybe will think twice in delivering rubbish endings/narratives even when time is running out and deadlines need to be met.  

A overall quality from start to finish wanting by consumers is a good thing and not a unwarrented requirement as is often sold to us.

Modifié par Bizantura, 14 mars 2013 - 03:31 .

[adam32867]

i actualy thought the citadel dlc was the best part in mass effect 3. a little corny at times but had that been the worst thing people could say about the rest of me3 well..

[Budgier]

Bioware did a lot of crappy things, from lying to us pre-release about ME3, to ruining the trilogy with nonsensical poorly executed endings, devaluing our choices into war assets to cut development corners, continue to lie post-release and the insulting PR they did in general... the list is likely endless. They had plenty of chances throughout the year to make it up to us and failed at every opportunity. Sometimes making us even more bitter (lol omega). Them coming around at the very end of ME3's production cycle and being all "HERES MIRANDA IN A HOT DRESS, FUNNY SQUAD BANTER AND WREX DANCING. TIME TO FORGIVE US OK?" isn't changing any of my feelings towards them. It's been too long and it's far too little. I did enjoy the Citadel DLC for what it was, but unlike a lot of people around here I'm not forgiving and forgetting.

[xarthas2]

What and entitled whinner! He doesn't respect the artistic integrity of the creators!

[Bill Casey]

Sturgeon's Law denotes 90% of everything is crap...
Mass Effect has always been really good crap...

[Marta Rio II]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

I don't know why so many people (not everyone, granted) are so black-and-white when it comes to Citadel DLC. I sometimes feel like you have to love it or people call you bitter and unappreciative. I appreciated the jokes, and it was fun, and I'll probably replay it many times, but that doesn't mean it was flawless. Citadel in the larger context of the war is ridiculous to me--I'm all for some R&R, but this felt like a happy dream moreso than something that would realistically happen in the MEU. Personally, it really broke the momentum of the story when I restarted a character and saw the Shore Leave message in my inbox. Furthermore, it felt like a HUGE serving of pandering to fans--from Blasto to Miranda and Jack's sexual tension, it wreaked of there being a checklist somewhere where writers would just check off a box on the list of fan requests and put in a one-liner to placate those fans.

I actually agree with a decent amount in this article. And I also really enjoyed the DLC and am very grateful that BW released a more character-focused DLC as their final content. It's possible to see both sides and not insult people who disagree.

This is my opinion as well.  I liked the Citadel DLC and am glad I purchased it.  But I can acknowledge that it's chock full of ridiculous fan-service, has some cringe-worthy elements, and doesn't make logical sense in the middle of the Reaper war.  

One thing I don't agree with Mr. Hornshaw on is that somehow this was supposed to pull the wool over the eyes of ending haters, and get them back on the EA money train.  I don't think this was the intent of the Mass Effect devs - I think that they, like us, just wanted to go out on a high note.

[Only-Twin]

....Okay. Is this moron is expecting a DLC to have the same story as the full game?

[Bill Casey]

In fact, other than the contrived story missions, most of Mass Effect 1 consisted of doing comparatively inconsequential things while the fate of the galaxy was at stake...

But it didn't matter because it was really really good crap, like the Citadel DLC...

Liara: "MOTHER!!!"

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 mars 2013 - 10:54 .