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Thanks A Lot, Phil Hornshaw


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#176
Torrible

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fainmaca wrote...

My concern and (I believe) this reviewer's concern, is that people in suits are going to see this response after such an overwhelmingly negative response to the previous offering, and are therefore going to make this kind of cheese-laden thing the be-all and end-all of gaming, which I strongly oppose. Video games could become increasingly sitcom-ified, and all hopes of video gaming befoming a legitimate artform like literature, theatre or even film making will die.

Video games have the potential to be a very powerful medium for storytelling, something I believe to be a crucial part of our culture. We've been telling stories since the first cave paintings were made. They're important to who we are. Now we have this immensely powerful tool at our disposal, machines that can generate a story for us which we control. Every day I can boot up my system and forge a new legend that could stay with me through my life. Stories are important.


Your worries and your slippery slope argument are unfounded. Apart from Borderlands 2, no other game I've played in recent years falls into the sitcom cheese category. Most Modern AAA games (Sleeping Dogs, Batman: Arkham City, Dead Space 3, Far Cry 3, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, DmC, Spec Ops: The Line to name a few) actually try to tell a serious story(of course some do it better than others) regardless of genre. Only BSN nitpicks a story to the extent I've seen. Most gaming communities do not have such ridiculous standards, and are grateful when a decent story is told. Thus, most game developers do not have to resort to fan service.

Modifié par Torrible, 14 mars 2013 - 01:39 .


#177
Iakus

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 The only point he makes that I think is valid is the lat one:  That Citadel was unblinking fan service.  It's designed to win back people soured by the ending, and make them more receptive to buying future products.

Me, I'll take a final lighthearted adventure, enjoy it, and still be susp0icious of future products.  I'm not so easilly lulled into another shearing.  But I can still enjoy this dlc.

#178
neon skink

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I think the guy's article makes a lot of sense, and I hope that the success of the Citadel in no way flavors the direction of future ME games.

#179
fainmaca

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Torrible wrote...
Your worries and your slippery slope argument are unfounded. Apart from Borderlands 2, no other game I've played in recent years falls into the sitcom cheese category. Most Modern AAA games (Sleeping Dogs, Batman: Arkham City, Dead Space 3, Far Cry 3, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, DmC, Spec Ops: The Line to name a few) actually try to tell a serious story(of course some do it better than others) regardless of genre. Only BSN nitpicks a story to the extent I've seen. Most gaming communities do not have such ridiculous standards, and are grateful when a decent story is told. Thus, most game developers do not have to resort to fan service.


Aside from the fact that none of those are choice-based, player determined narratives (the aspect I think has the most potential for advancing storytelling in video games) none of them had to contend with backlash over their content. In fact, they were all generally well received. Dead Space 3 maybe not so much, but not to the extent of ME3.

My concerns are that the people behind the scenes are going to see this kind of thing as what is needed to keep us quiet. If issues come up over a stories inconsistent nature or a Gainax ending, the devs will just slap together a fanservice sitcom DLC to plaster over the problems and move on. Especially worrying with a company like Bioware, who have long touted that their player-shaped narratives are a core part of their design process.

#180
George Costanza

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simfamSP wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Phil's an idiot. Citadel is a love letter from the developers to the players. It was great on nearly every level. All games and DLCs should be made with that much love. Its a great sign for the future.


Citadel was enjoyable. But great on every level? I wouldn't agree. It makes less than no sense in the context of the game, tonally it's completely different to the rest of the story and stands out like a sore thumb, and the main story mission is absolutely awful. I liked having a goodbye with my squad mates too, but people hailing this as the greatest thing ever in Mass Effect are delusional, and are only adding fuel to the "people were only pissed at the endings because they were sad" fire by praising an utterly nonsensical mission seemingly just because it provided some happy.


My smudboy senses are tingling.

How is this out of context and nonsensical?

Clone shep was plausible and had good motives. Shore leave and retro-fits made sense (indeed, I can't believe there weren't any in ME2) and the humour has always been in Mass Effect. Not as concentrated as in this DLC, but every character has always had a great sense of humour. Even EDI in ME2 did.


You don't think that the Citadel party in Shepards absurdly flash new aparment is oddly placed in the middle of the story about the biggest war the galaxy has ever known? Maybe you're right. When should we play it? Right after the scene where Joker comments on how oblivious the citizens of the Citadel are to the horrors of war, or just after seeing all the refugees cramped into the docking area because they have nowhere to live?

It's ridiculous. I looked the other way on it because I found the party funny and enjoyable, but that's from the perspective of having finished the game and this story acting as a farewell. Taking place at any point before you've defeated the Reapers, this DLC is utterly ludicrous. There's people dying everywhere, and hundreds if not thousands left homeless on the Citadel. Time for Shepard to put his feet up and watch the game with James and Cortez. Tonally, it doesn't fit the characters, and it's completely at odds with the story.

There's nothing inherently wrong with humour in a story, either, even quite a dark story like ME3. But the issue with Citadel is that it's all humour. You play through the main game and you get the odd amusing line in an otherwise depressing tale, and then suddenly after the failed Citadel coup, you get nothing but amusing lines for a couple of hours while the plight of the galaxy is forgotten about. It doesn't fit with the rest of the game in any fashion whatsoever. 

I'm not trying to bash Citadel for the sake of it, as I'm glad I played it, and I actually enjoyed it quite a bit (the party segment at least) but it's absolutely not without flaws. If you play Citadel during your first playthrough of Mass Effect 3, it would be like watching Schindler's List for the first time and finding out your idiot housemate had accidentally taped over five minutes in the middle with How I Met Your Mother.

#181
IRONSAM96

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I dug Citadel. It didn't hurt the ME3 story at all. It provided some pacing in the overall bleak story. I wish that I had a chance to experience it in my first play-through, in fact. It was refreshing.

The Die Hard series had a few bits of comedy. Didn't make it a bad action movie. Same goes for ME3 with Citadel.

Modifié par IRONSAM96, 14 mars 2013 - 01:57 .


#182
neon skink

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George Costanza wrote...

-snip- ........ it's absolutely not without flaws. If you play Citadel during your first playthrough of Mass Effect 3, it would be like watching Schindler's List for the first time and finding out your idiot housemate had accidentally taped over five minutes in the middle with How I Met Your Mother.



That's priceless! Best analogy I've seen!

#183
HolyAvenger

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The post-clone content in Citadel is IMO much better spread out through the second half of ME3 rather than played out all at once. It is jarring if you hang out with Vega and Cortez watching sports, then go and meet Miranda for drinks at the casino and then go to the arcade with Jacob all at once. But it feels much more realistic to do some story stuff, then hit up the Citadel to buy gear etc, do one or two of the interactions, go do more story stuff, come back and lighten up the tone, then go back out to the war etc.

#184
Everyone Is Someone

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I can understand how people like the reviewer might be worried Citadel is an over-correction to the original reception of Mass Effect 3, but it's not like Bioware is one person who has written every single game since Baldur's Gate. In other words, I appreciate that someone can find Citadel not to their tastes, but it's no reason to be worried for the future.

#185
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...

 The only point he makes that I think is valid is the lat one:  That Citadel was unblinking fan service.  It's designed to win back people soured by the ending, and make them more receptive to buying future products.


That's pretty cynical. Why isn't Citadel fan service in the sense that making Garrus and Tali LI in ME2 was fan service? Any argument that can be applied to Citadel DLC in this sense would have been even more true for ending DLC. You either design content based on what the fans want or you don't.

#186
Kel Riever

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I would have bought it and all the DLC anyway...if it had fixed the ending(s)

#187
Guest_simfamUP_*

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You don't think that the Citadel party in Shepards absurdly flash new aparment is oddly placed in the middle of the story about the biggest war the galaxy has ever known? Maybe you're right. When should we play it? Right after the scene where Joker comments on how oblivious the citizens of the Citadel are to the horrors of war, or just after seeing all the refugees cramped into the docking area because they have nowhere to live?


This is why there are references to the war. No one has forgotten it's on. I believe a few people in the military here have pointed out the absolute *need* for R&R. Have you seen some documentries on people who go absolute bat**** after too much combat?

It's ridiculous. I looked the other way on it because I found the party funny and enjoyable, but that's from the perspective of having finished the game and this story acting as a farewell. Taking place at any point before you've defeated the Reapers, this DLC is utterly ludicrous. There's people dying everywhere, and hundreds if not thousands left homeless on the Citadel. Time for Shepard to put his feet up and watch the game with James and Cortez. Tonally, it doesn't fit the characters, and it's completely at odds with the story.


When you head to the Citadel for business the characters are there anyway. There is nothing ludicrous about having some time to recover before going out into the fray again. It's been mentioned numerous times about how necessary that is. The whole "omg it's a big war" doesn't cut it. Yes, it's absolutely vital for Shepard to win this, but not much can be done when your war is against a tireless enemy, who needs no sleep, food or resources to keep on fighting. As long as the Crucible is still under construction, there is not much that can be done. Unless you want Shepard to go around leading evacuations. There is only so much the man can do.

There's nothing inherently wrong with humour in a story, either, even quite a dark story like ME3. But the issue with Citadel is that it's all humour. You play through the main game and you get the odd amusing line in an otherwise depressing tale, and then suddenly after the failed Citadel coup, you get nothing but amusing lines for a couple of hours while the plight of the galaxy is forgotten about. It doesn't fit with the rest of the game in any fashion whatsoever.


If it's all done through one go, then sure. But the DLC is not meant to be taken *that* seriously. Even then, there are more touching moments than there are comedic. The humour belongs to the dialogue, not the tone, and that's where it's always belonged. It's still very 'Mass Effect' when Garrus goes "wait, you're all getting paid for this?"

I'm not trying to bash Citadel for the sake of it, as I'm glad I played it, and I actually enjoyed it quite a bit (the party segment at least) but it's absolutely not without flaws. If you play Citadel during your first playthrough of Mass Effect 3, it would be like watching Schindler's List for the first time and finding out your idiot housemate had accidentally taped over five minutes in the middle with How I Met Your Mother.


Again, you're taking it too serious. As I said, the whole point is a symbolic goodbye to Shepard and company. For a 'last ever DLC' it's fitting to give the fans what they love most.

If you're looking for flow, then the DLC should be played bit by bit. It's all unlocked as you go through the main campaign. My next playthrough will consist of doing this DLC into three parts.

#188
Iakus

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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

 The only point he makes that I think is valid is the lat one:  That Citadel was unblinking fan service.  It's designed to win back people soured by the ending, and make them more receptive to buying future products.


That's pretty cynical. Why isn't Citadel fan service in the sense that making Garrus and Tali LI in ME2 was fan service? Any argument that can be applied to Citadel DLC in this sense would have been even more true for ending DLC. You either design content based on what the fans want or you don't.


Because not being able to romance Garrus or Tali didn't wreck ME1 for (most) people.

People complained about the grim nature of the endings.  FOr many it completely wrecked the game, if not the whole trilogy.  So what does Bioware give us as "one final adventure"?  A lighthearted romp that culminates with a party with the squads.  Surely you haven't missed the posts of players declaring "this is my ending now"?  How many people will now do the party after Sanctuary and never attack Cronos Base?  You think this wasn't at least partly intentional on Bioware's part?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to enjoy this DLC, but I still recognise it for what it is. 

#189
BD Manchild

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simfamSP wrote...

Again, you're taking it too serious. As I said, the whole point is a symbolic goodbye to Shepard and company. For a 'last ever DLC' it's fitting to give the fans what they love most.



But surely there's an argument that blatant fanservice has no place in the middle of a cohesive story, and that it smacks of an exercise in pure self-indulgence?

I'm not judging Citadel either way until I actually play it, but that's the thought that occurs to me.

#190
CronoDragoon

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BD Manchild wrote...

But surely there's an argument that blatant fanservice has no place in the middle of a cohesive story, and that it smacks of an exercise in pure self-indulgence?

I'm not judging Citadel either way until I actually play it, but that's the thought that occurs to me.


Then don't play it in the middle of the story. Personally I will always play it after the endings, not to pretend it's post-Destroy but because tonally that's where it fits. It's the perfect capper to any series-spanning playthrough.

#191
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...
Because not being able to romance Garrus or Tali didn't wreck ME1 for (most) people.

People complained about the grim nature of the endings.  FOr many it completely wrecked the game, if not the whole trilogy.  So what does Bioware give us as "one final adventure"?  A lighthearted romp that culminates with a party with the squads.  Surely you haven't missed the posts of players declaring "this is my ending now"?  How many people will now do the party after Sanctuary and never attack Cronos Base?  You think this wasn't at least partly intentional on Bioware's part?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to enjoy this DLC, but I still recognise it for what it is. 


So in your mind there's a categorical difference between fan service designed to please fans, and fan service designed to win back fans? Because I don't see one. Either you are producing content for the fans or you aren't.

#192
visionazzery

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http://social.biowar.../index/16268802

#193
goose2989

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Torrible wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

My concern and (I believe) this reviewer's concern, is that people in suits are going to see this response after such an overwhelmingly negative response to the previous offering, and are therefore going to make this kind of cheese-laden thing the be-all and end-all of gaming, which I strongly oppose. Video games could become increasingly sitcom-ified, and all hopes of video gaming befoming a legitimate artform like literature, theatre or even film making will die.

Video games have the potential to be a very powerful medium for storytelling, something I believe to be a crucial part of our culture. We've been telling stories since the first cave paintings were made. They're important to who we are. Now we have this immensely powerful tool at our disposal, machines that can generate a story for us which we control. Every day I can boot up my system and forge a new legend that could stay with me through my life. Stories are important.


Your worries and your slippery slope argument are unfounded. Apart from Borderlands 2, no other game I've played in recent years falls into the sitcom cheese category. Most Modern AAA games (Sleeping Dogs, Batman: Arkham City, Dead Space 3, Far Cry 3, Dishonored, Tomb Raider, DmC, Spec Ops: The Line to name a few) actually try to tell a serious story(of course some do it better than others) regardless of genre. Only BSN nitpicks a story to the extent I've seen. Most gaming communities do not have such ridiculous standards, and are grateful when a decent story is told. Thus, most game developers do not have to resort to fan service.


So you're saying it's execissive the way many BioWare fans look at a game under a magnifying glass? I see that as a compliment that many of us are more involved in storytelling than the typical Call of Duty-type gamer. 

I also don't think it's "nitpicking" to point out legitimate issues with a story; nitpicking is based heavily on a person's opinion, while many of the complaints associated with Mass Effect 3 are grounded in fact. 

#194
CronoDragoon

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goose2989 wrote...
So you're saying it's execissive the way many BioWare fans look at a game under a magnifying glass? I see that as a compliment that many of us are more involved in storytelling than the typical Call of Duty-type gamer.


It can be hard to see it as a compliment when framed as a put-down. So far, though, I've seen a lot of "Citadel DLC was great but I have a few issues" posts which really goes a long way, instead of "this DLC is stupid because of X."

I also don't think it's "nitpicking" to point out legitimate issues with a story; nitpicking is based heavily on a person's opinion, while many of the complaints associated with Mass Effect 3 are grounded in fact.


I'd be careful with that. I'd say it's closer to call them well-reasoned and supported opinions.

#195
HiddenInWar

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I respect his views, but "you might frustrate me" if you like it is a little too far.

#196
Cutlass Jack

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George Costanza wrote...

You don't think that the Citadel party in Shepards absurdly flash new aparment is oddly placed in the middle of the story about the biggest war the galaxy has ever known? Maybe you're right. When should we play it? Right after the scene where Joker comments on how oblivious the citizens of the Citadel are to the horrors of war, or just after seeing all the refugees cramped into the docking area because they have nowhere to live?


It worked just fine. The ship was put into downtime and you were ordered to take Shore Leave.  Soldiers taking some time to blow off steam on Shore leave has existed for as long as there were wars and shore leaves. Taking a break to recharge your batteries and remember who it is you're fighting for couldn't be more appropriate.

And Shepard did not buy that flashy apartment. It was Anderson's from when he was playing Ambassador. So it would make sense it would be nice since he would have to entertain in it as part of his job.

As for when you should play it? Personally I feel right after Rannoch is the best time for it. Your team is flush with an actual win and deserves to celebrate. And you need to go back to the Citadel anyways to talk with the Ambassador.

Its also worth mentioning that the Party is entirely optional. No one forces you to have one if you don't think its appropriate. If it were forced you might have a point. You can even choose between a wild party and a small quiet gathering.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 14 mars 2013 - 04:29 .


#197
Iakus

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CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Because not being able to romance Garrus or Tali didn't wreck ME1 for (most) people.

People complained about the grim nature of the endings.  FOr many it completely wrecked the game, if not the whole trilogy.  So what does Bioware give us as "one final adventure"?  A lighthearted romp that culminates with a party with the squads.  Surely you haven't missed the posts of players declaring "this is my ending now"?  How many people will now do the party after Sanctuary and never attack Cronos Base?  You think this wasn't at least partly intentional on Bioware's part?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to enjoy this DLC, but I still recognise it for what it is. 


So in your mind there's a categorical difference between fan service designed to please fans, and fan service designed to win back fans? Because I don't see one. Either you are producing content for the fans or you aren't.


Yes.  By the nature of who it is aimed at.  There's a difference between "Let's make a good experience better" and "Convince them not to leave"  I'm sure you deal with people who are happy with you differently than those who are angry and you wish to placeate, after all.

#198
CronoDragoon

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iakus wrote...

Yes.  By the nature of who it is aimed at.  There's a difference between "Let's make a good experience better" and "Convince them not to leave"  I'm sure you deal with people who are happy with you differently than those who are angry and you wish to placeate, after all.


So let's say everyone loved ME3's ending and BW made Citadel DLC as a final goodbye. We should view the DLC differently than making it after lots of people hated ME3's ending, even though it's the same exact product.

#199
Big Bad

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As I think I said before, to me the Citadel DLC is basically a tribute to the trilogy as a whole. In a sense it's kind of a meta-ending that belongs to the entire series and exists outside the narrative of any one game, even though it technically is a part of ME3. Because of that, I don't have a problem with how different the tone is compared to the grimness of much of the rest of the game, but I could see how that might bother some people.

#200
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...

Because not being able to romance Garrus or Tali didn't wreck ME1 for (most) people.

People complained about the grim nature of the endings.  FOr many it completely wrecked the game, if not the whole trilogy.  So what does Bioware give us as "one final adventure"?  A lighthearted romp that culminates with a party with the squads.  Surely you haven't missed the posts of players declaring "this is my ending now"?  How many people will now do the party after Sanctuary and never attack Cronos Base?  You think this wasn't at least partly intentional on Bioware's part?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to enjoy this DLC, but I still recognise it for what it is. 


So it's the wrong kind of fanservice?

Edit: looks like it from the later posts.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 mars 2013 - 04:31 .