245 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

neon skink wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

-snip- ........ it's absolutely not without flaws. If you play Citadel during your first playthrough of Mass Effect 3, it would be like watching Schindler's List for the first time and finding out your idiot housemate had accidentally taped over five minutes in the middle with How I Met Your Mother.

That's priceless! Best analogy I've seen!

It's not bad, but Bio's probably thinking more about series television than movies. Specifically Star Trek, which is wildly inconsistent in tone from one episode to the next. DS9 dropped a couple of comedy episodes into the middle of the Dominion War, for instance.

[Outsider edge]

Interesting article and i agree too a certain extent.

The Citadel DLC with the way it's set up is meant too be played late into the main game. When romances are locked and the most squadmembers are available. Taking into account the main story of ME3 and the DLC just doesn't fit at all.

The thing i am wondering is why so many point too Shepard as someone acting out of character when Liara is a far more obvious culprit. Here's someone that just moments earlier lost her homeworld, had too be talked out of a mental breakdown and vowed too use her shadowbroker contacts too help all the Asari refugees........but first it's time too partay like it's 1999!

The DLC on it's own is good fun and i personally see the excellent last two minutes of the DLC as a far better sendoff too the trilogy then the last hour of the main game. But let's be honest here it doesn't fit at all in the main narrative especially where it's currently placed. It would have worked as an epilogue after a high EMS good ending but not smacked right in the middle of this dark and gloomy warstory.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 14 mars 2013 - 04:45 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yes.  By the nature of who it is aimed at.  There's a difference between "Let's make a good experience better" and "Convince them not to leave"  I'm sure you deal with people who are happy with you differently than those who are angry and you wish to placeate, after all.

So let's say everyone loved ME3's ending and BW made Citadel DLC as a final goodbye. We should view the DLC differently than making it after lots of people hated ME3's ending, even though it's the same exact product.

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Because not being able to romance Garrus or Tali didn't wreck ME1 for (most) people.

People complained about the grim nature of the endings.  FOr many it completely wrecked the game, if not the whole trilogy.  So what does Bioware give us as "one final adventure"?  A lighthearted romp that culminates with a party with the squads.  Surely you haven't missed the posts of players declaring "this is my ending now"?  How many people will now do the party after Sanctuary and never attack Cronos Base?  You think this wasn't at least partly intentional on Bioware's part?

Don't get me wrong, I intend to enjoy this DLC, but I still recognise it for what it is. 

So it's the wrong kind of fanservice?

Edit: looks like it from the later posts.

Depends on who you ask.  I'm just saying it's different fanservice, done with a different purpose.  And that I will not be distracted by it.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

You mean it would have had different content?

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by all this. Even if the DLC is different because of different motivations, are we also saying that a DLC to win back the fans is worse than a DLC to please happy fans? That would seem odd coming from someone who so vehemently supported a Reunion scene.

[Outsider edge]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yes.  By the nature of who it is aimed at.  There's a difference between "Let's make a good experience better" and "Convince them not to leave"  I'm sure you deal with people who are happy with you differently than those who are angry and you wish to placeate, after all.

So let's say everyone loved ME3's ending and BW made Citadel DLC as a final goodbye. We should view the DLC differently than making it after lots of people hated ME3's ending, even though it's the same exact product.

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

Quite possibly yes.

I do wonder how many of the people that are now heavily defending the Citadel DLC against any sort of criticism thrown at it were the same that lambasted anyone trying too advocate a good ending too Mass Effect 3 as wanting unicorns and rainbows. When this DLC is actually just that rainbows and unicorns and not a bad thing in sight.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 14 mars 2013 - 04:50 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...


Depends on who you ask.  I'm just saying it's different fanservice, done with a different purpose.  And that I will not be distracted by it.

Sure. Sometime's a product's made for you, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's a mix; DA2 had a bunch of ideas I really liked mixed together with some I really hated.

[Outsider edge]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I disagree completely.

If anything, the ME series should have been more like Citadel and less about trying to be "deep" and serious. Because, frankly, Bioware did a much better job at the former.

Well it should have been consistent i agree. After Mass Effect 3's dark and bitter story, the extended cut which hardly made things lighter, Leviathan adding nothing and Omega in the same vein it's highly surprising watching the last DLC too be a complete 180 compaired with everything that came before.

It's also funny when that last DLC seems too have garnered more goodwill with gamers and even critics as a whole. Says alot when Bioware has too drop all the themes from the main game and subsequent DLC's too garner such a reception.

[Mazebook]

wow ...this guy has no idea what he is talking about.I don´t know how...but he missed the point of the DLC entirely.
They miles people walk to critice Bioware is amazing to me.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

You mean it would have had different content?

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by all this. Even if the DLC is different because of different motivations, are we also saying that a DLC to win back the fans is worse than a DLC to please happy fans? That would seem odd coming from someone who so vehemently supported a Reunion scene.

Possibly, but far more likely it would not have been so lighthearted, upbeat, "cheesy" as some have called it.  My suspicion is it would have been more serious, like Leviathan and Omega.

And I'm not necessarilly saying that such DLC is "bad" as such.  If it makes people happy, then it fufills its primary purpose. 

But I am suggesting that ending the DLC schedule with such a DLC is almost certainly calculated to make those otherwise turned off by ME3 to give whatever new game comes along another chance.  To forget that Bioware failed them badly with the last game.  It's like a politician promiseing to cut taxes if re-elected after weathering a scandal. 

Modifié par iakus, 14 mars 2013 - 06:34 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

iakus wrote...

Possibly, but far more likely it would not have been so lighthearted, upbeat, "cheesy" as some have called it.  My suspicion is it would have been more serious, like Leviathan and Omega.

And I'm not necessarilly saying that such DLC is "bad" as such.  If it makes people happy, then it fufills its primary purpose. 

But I am suggesting that ending the DLC schedule with such a DLC is almost certainly calculated to make those otherwise turned off by ME3 to give whatever new game comes along another chance.  To forget that Bioware failed them badly with the last game.  It's like a politician promiseing to cut taxes if re-elected after weathering a scandal. 

I agree. It's not cynical to understand that BioWare is a business. The DLC wasn't a card and a balloon boquet with our name written on it, it was a product that was designed for a purpose. Yes, they attempted to give fans what they wanted, but I don't believe altruism and nostalgia was their motive. Companies don't think like that.

That's not to say I didn't enjoy Citadel or think other people shouldn't enjoy it. I just think it's a little naive to assume there was no business purpose behind it.

[mopotter]

iakus wrote...

 The only point he makes that I think is valid is the lat one:  That Citadel was unblinking fan service.  It's designed to win back people soured by the ending, and make them more receptive to buying future products.

Me, I'll take a final lighthearted adventure, enjoy it, and still be susp0icious of future products.  I'm not so easilly lulled into another shearing.  But I can still enjoy this dlc.

  me too.  I'm enjoying Citadel.  I'm not pre-ordering the next game, though if I hear good things I'll purchase it.  i just don't blindly trust them the way I did before ME3.

[Vovea]

The phrase "Wrex dances," was a used as a negative. "Wrex dances," should never be used as a negative.

[neon skink]

It's ultimately the suits that decide which games get made, and if they see that Wrex dancing games are popular and a nice money earner, then they are going to be inclined to finance more games with Wrex dancing happily ever after, and less where Wrex and everyone else dies horribly.

[mopotter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yes.  By the nature of who it is aimed at.  There's a difference between "Let's make a good experience better" and "Convince them not to leave"  I'm sure you deal with people who are happy with you differently than those who are angry and you wish to placeate, after all.

So let's say everyone loved ME3's ending and BW made Citadel DLC as a final goodbye. We should view the DLC differently than making it after lots of people hated ME3's ending, even though it's the same exact product.

I know it wasn't addressed to me, but giving my opinion anyway.     Yes.  Because if I had Loved the ending I'd view the dlc as extra icing on the cake with more dialogue for the ME 2 group as well generally more team interaction and some relaxing fun to recharge Shepard and the team, like any other RR soldiers have taken throughout the history of wars.  

I hated the "survival" ending.  I have not downloaded any DLC and stopped playing after 2 games.  I look at this as a way to ignore that ending for my Shepards who survived and a way to enjoy a series I've loved since ME1 first came out.

[goose2989]

Outsider edge wrote...

Interesting article and i agree too a certain extent.

The Citadel DLC with the way it's set up is meant too be played late into the main game. When romances are locked and the most squadmembers are available. Taking into account the main story of ME3 and the DLC just doesn't fit at all.

The thing i am wondering is why so many point too Shepard as someone acting out of character when Liara is a far more obvious culprit. Here's someone that just moments earlier lost her homeworld, had too be talked out of a mental breakdown and vowed too use her shadowbroker contacts too help all the Asari refugees........but first it's time too partay like it's 1999!

The DLC on it's own is good fun and i personally see the excellent last two minutes of the DLC as a far better sendoff too the trilogy then the last hour of the main game. But let's be honest here it doesn't fit at all in the main narrative especially where it's currently placed. It would have worked as an epilogue after a high EMS good ending but not smacked right in the middle of this dark and gloomy warstory.

I agree, and that's why I feel Phil has a point. Like you, I don't agree wholeheartedly with him; I feel he is getting too paranoid. But the content, while great, is absolutely out of place in the middle of the story, and should have been post-game DLC. It would have required tweaking since Shepard may be dead, but I don't see why we couldn't have played as Joker is Control or Synthesis was chosen. 

I also realize the whole Aramax Arena would have been difficult to use post-game, but that part could easily have been activated prior to Priority: Cerberus. Same with the conspiracy against Shepard. But the entire party? I don't see a good reason it shouldn't have been after the Crucible decision. 

[SpamBot2000]

He is sadly making a lot of sense. And clearly he's touched a nerve, judging by the angry people lashing at him for being "dumb", "an idiot", "moron" etc. How dare he point out that you just paid for a "love letter"?

Frankly though, as cynical as I believe this corporation is, there is probably more going on here than just a slick little money spinner. It seems that the writers are quite gleefully ripping up all the claims to art that BW made in defense of their wretched ending. Some say that this "love letter" is to the Mass Effect saga, but it's hard not to see some venom dripping off the quill, so to speak. Maybe they are deliberately taking the thing off its pedestal.

Not sure how to feel about that. Mass Effect had such ambitions. And now they've come not to praise it, but to bury it.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 14 mars 2013 - 09:05 .

[Kabooooom]

Is this guy as much of an idiot as he comes off? And to the guy above me- no, we aren't calling him an idiot because he 'struck a nerve', we are calling him an idiot because he missed the entire point of the dlc and is, therefore, an idiot.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 14 mars 2013 - 09:11 .

[Vovea]

neon skink wrote...

It's ultimately the suits that decide which games get made, and if they see that Wrex dancing games are popular and a nice money earner, then they are going to be inclined to finance more games with Wrex dancing happily ever after, and less where Wrex and everyone else dies horribly.

Yes, I'm sure they're going to put dancing Wrex in every single Mass Effect game  from now on because people thought it was cute in this DLC.

I read the article. I get that Bioware is a company but I still think that they are in control of most of their own content. Granted, multiplayer was probably encouraged by 'suits', along with some other stuff, but I'm not going to get angry at a brilliant little nostalgia trip because of speculation about possible repercussions. It's complaining for the sake of complaining.

Modifié par Vovea, 14 mars 2013 - 09:15 .

[neon skink]

Vovea wrote...


I read the article. I get that Bioware is a company but I still think that they are in control of most of their own content. Granted, multiplayer was probably encouraged by 'suits', along with some other stuff, but I'm not going to get angry at a brilliant little nostalgia trip because of speculation about possible repercussions. It's complaining for the sake of complaining.

I don't think anyones getting angry at the nostalgia trip, and the article isn't complaining (and neither am I) it's merely offering for consideration the view that the DLC is a balm to sooth out the problems of the ending fiacso - many people wanted a happy ending and for some this DLC is just that. Even if it at times rides roughshod over characterization and the rest of the main narrative. After the backlash of the main game, and the success of the Citadel its not hard to imagine that in future investors would be unwilling to finance a game without a happy ending.
Yes of course it's speculation, but it's a valid point worth descussing.

[The Night Mammoth]

Kabooooom wrote...

Is this guy as much of an idiot as he comes off? And to the guy above me- no, we aren't calling him an idiot because he 'struck a nerve', we are calling him an idiot because he missed the entire point of the dlc and is, therefore, an idiot.

The point of the DLC is partly what he talks about in the article. He understands what it is, what it's for, but that's part of the reason it didn't gel well with him.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 14 mars 2013 - 10:00 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

You mean it would have had different content?

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by all this. Even if the DLC is different because of different motivations, are we also saying that a DLC to win back the fans is worse than a DLC to please happy fans? That would seem odd coming from someone who so vehemently supported a Reunion scene.

Possibly, but far more likely it would not have been so lighthearted, upbeat, "cheesy" as some have called it.  My suspicion is it would have been more serious, like Leviathan and Omega.

And I'm not necessarilly saying that such DLC is "bad" as such.  If it makes people happy, then it fufills its primary purpose. 

But I am suggesting that ending the DLC schedule with such a DLC is almost certainly calculated to make those otherwise turned off by ME3 to give whatever new game comes along another chance.  To forget that Bioware failed them badly with the last game.  It's like a politician promiseing to cut taxes if re-elected after weathering a scandal. 

No one is getting this. How many here work or have worked for a corporation?

Management controls what the writers can do. The writers all know the ending is not liked. The people have to put on the corporate face and carry the corporate line? That is "the endings are fine. You anti-enders are in teh vocal minority. We have the numbers." Okay, so people have played the game numerous times and finished it despite the ending. It doesn't mean they LIKED the ending. If you played teh game twice through I'm guessing it counts as a like.

So the writers get told to write a final DLC, but they can't change the ending. They decide to write a total fan service DLC. "Hey, we're sorry the ending was such a bummer. We know you wanted a kick ass ending, and we can't give it to you. You deserve some fun after that fiasco. This is the best we can do for you. We're going to give you some fun. Here's 4 GB worth of it. It's cheesy. It's pulp, but it's fun. Be sure to listen to all the comments, and while you CAN start it right after the coup, you could play it after the destroy ending you know and just end with the party, then put your disk away. Just ignore the remarks about the reapers and the war. We had to put those in there to get it by management. We hope you enjoy this and have as much fun playing it as we did making it."

I live in perhaps the most passive-aggressive city in America. This DLC is perhaps the most passive aggressive slap at the ending and the inconsistencies throughout the game that I've seen. I had a blast with it. Phil Hornshaw is full of crap. I bought this for the 360. I'm going to get another copy for the PC. Call me a hypocrite. I don't care. I was laughing. And I cried at the end because it was the end. I didn't want it to end. Well, at least it ends with all my friends recovering from their hangovers, the smell of hot coffee, and eggs. We just never return to the Normandy because it is all over.

[goose2989]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

If the endings were universally praised, I submit that "Citadel" would have been a different dlc.  It would not, in fact, have been the exact same product.

You mean it would have had different content?

I'll admit I'm a bit confused by all this. Even if the DLC is different because of different motivations, are we also saying that a DLC to win back the fans is worse than a DLC to please happy fans? That would seem odd coming from someone who so vehemently supported a Reunion scene.

Possibly, but far more likely it would not have been so lighthearted, upbeat, "cheesy" as some have called it.  My suspicion is it would have been more serious, like Leviathan and Omega.

And I'm not necessarilly saying that such DLC is "bad" as such.  If it makes people happy, then it fufills its primary purpose. 

But I am suggesting that ending the DLC schedule with such a DLC is almost certainly calculated to make those otherwise turned off by ME3 to give whatever new game comes along another chance.  To forget that Bioware failed them badly with the last game.  It's like a politician promiseing to cut taxes if re-elected after weathering a scandal. 

No one is getting this. How many here work or have worked for a corporation?

Management controls what the writers can do. The writers all know the ending is not liked. The people have to put on the corporate face and carry the corporate line? That is "the endings are fine. You anti-enders are in teh vocal minority. We have the numbers." Okay, so people have played the game numerous times and finished it despite the ending. It doesn't mean they LIKED the ending. If you played teh game twice through I'm guessing it counts as a like.

So the writers get told to write a final DLC, but they can't change the ending. They decide to write a total fan service DLC. "Hey, we're sorry the ending was such a bummer. We know you wanted a kick ass ending, and we can't give it to you. You deserve some fun after that fiasco. This is the best we can do for you. We're going to give you some fun. Here's 4 GB worth of it. It's cheesy. It's pulp, but it's fun. Be sure to listen to all the comments, and while you CAN start it right after the coup, you could play it after the destroy ending you know and just end with the party, then put your disk away. Just ignore the remarks about the reapers and the war. We had to put those in there to get it by management. We hope you enjoy this and have as much fun playing it as we did making it."

I live in perhaps the most passive-aggressive city in America. This DLC is perhaps the most passive aggressive slap at the ending and the inconsistencies throughout the game that I've seen. I had a blast with it. Phil Hornshaw is full of crap. I bought this for the 360. I'm going to get another copy for the PC. Call me a hypocrite. I don't care. I was laughing. And I cried at the end because it was the end. I didn't want it to end. Well, at least it ends with all my friends recovering from their hangovers, the smell of hot coffee, and eggs. We just never return to the Normandy because it is all over.

I think you may be on to something. Maybe 

[Budgier]

Vovea wrote...

The phrase "Wrex dances," was a used as a negative. "Wrex dances," should never be used as a negative.

His point there is valid though. Wrex dancing is basically character assassination for the sake of cheap humor. I would consider that a negative. Fan service is great but the way it was done in Citadel DLC was kind of thoughtless and lazy. It would have been better received by people like Phil if it was integrated more properly into the atmosphere of ME3 and not degraded countless characters to ridiculous states.