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[BD Manchild]

Steelcan wrote...

BD Manchild wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
The military demands of war, especially one on this scale, == genocide.

That argument will never hold water. The victims of the Destroy ending aren't dying in battle; you're ritually sacrificing them, stabbing beings who trusted you in the back. There's a world of difference. Hell, Shepard says it themselves at one point; the minute you start killing your friends, the war turns into murder.

. Killing the geth, assuming they are alive, isn't genocide because it isn't deliberate.  The Catalyst doesn't say that the geth wil die he just says "all synthetics will be targeted".  The only group you are knowingly targeting is the Reapers.  And killing all of them is both justifiable and deserved.

Now that is an incredibly weak argument if I ever heard one. Christ, you would have to be unfathomably ignorant to hear the word "synthetics" and not think of the Geth and EDI. The Catalyst says "all synthetics will be targetted" by a weapon designed to destroy the Reapers. The Geth and EDI are synthetic, ergo they will also be destroyed. You know full well what will happen if you pick Destroy, so no; you can't tell me it's not deliberate.

Frankly speaking, regardless of which ending you choose, you're embracing the Reapers' methods as the only viable way to end the war. It's a basic storytelling rule; the minute the antagonist's ideology is deemed to have more worth than the protagonist's, then the antagonist has won. Yeah, I said it; regardless of which choice you make, the Reapers have won.

Modifié par BD Manchild, 14 mars 2013 - 10:56 .

[Ieldra]

Lieber wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As for the goodbye line, here's what it means to me: Dear player, if you want your Shepard to live (Destroy), come back from the dead again (Synthesis), reconnect with old friends (Control) in spite of everything, then that's what will happen in your timeline. Make it so. We've told our story, now you can tell yours. The story as Bioware tells is it over, but don't tell me your Shepards don't live on in your minds. They only die if you let them. It's just that this time, we have to use our own imagination. We can now do so unconstrained by the story as told by Bioware.

I agree with this. To be honest, while playing the Citadel DLC I just imagined it being disconnected from the Reaper War, and this happened post ending (although the ending is different in my head, sadly).

It's just that last line that hurts.

The last line is just the other side. If you - the player - are ready to leave Shepard behind, then this is goodbye. Both lines together emphasize that this is the end of Bioware's story, but if it's the end for your Shepard is up to you. It's a strange mix of in-world and out-of-world emotions triggered here. Shepard knows they may die and says "Whatever will happen, we've had this ride together", but their LI is reassuring and gives them reason to survive. I as the player know this is the end of the story told by Bioware, but I'm also called to continue it if I want.

Strange to realize that the core scene of my "Shepard comes back after Synthesis" epilogue has existed since the day of ME3's release...

[Guanxii]

78stonewobble wrote...

Guanxii wrote...
The protheans had to live like robots just to survive... as you get more advanced so does your synthetic intelligence.

There cannot be in purely astrobiological terms. Synthetic intelligence doesn't seek conflict but their existance compromises ours. They will aways advance socio-technologically much faster than organics... by ME2 the Geth were already building their own Matryoshka Dyson Sphere to harness the energy of the sun/resources in their solar system at the expense of organic life in their system [while we bicker amongst ourselves]. Before long they will be harnessing the energy and resources of large swarths of the galaxy at the expense of organic life that could have thrived in that space. Would we be in any position to push back militarily by that point.... i think not.

Our societal goals are not in alignment. Syntheisis changes that so we advance in lock-step with synthetics for better or worst.

Based on the assumption that even a somewhat rational and intelligent race like the geth cannot possibly control their own population growth.

We're talking 1 star out of 100 billion stars here. Lets say conservatively that only 1 in 10 star systems have a habitable planet for organics. It still leaves 90 billion stars for Geth usage. If it takes a year to build a dysons sphere we're talking billions of years before a conflict of interest regarding ressources arise.

Heck... Even then... They could leave the galaxy entirely, since they're immortal and can endure the long travel times, instead of forcing a conflict on organics for the last 10 billion stars.

Unlike organics I don't get the impression that Geth expansion is motivated by over-population/unsustainable development. They exand to further their societal goals, we expand because we have to often at the point of a gun.

Even if it took hundreds of millions of years organics and Geth would eventually be in conflict and if we go with the assumption that Geth socio-technological advancement is expontially faster than ours... we would be comfortably outmatched and it would be us exiting our own galaxy.

Modifié par Guanxii, 14 mars 2013 - 10:51 .

[o Ventus]

Yay OP?

Why do you always feel the need to announce these things?

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

 Sorry but Synthesis is an abomination

[chasemme]

Steelcan wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

The protheans had to live like robots just to survive... as you get more advanced so does your synthetic intelligence.

There cannot be in purely astrobiological terms. Synthetic intelligence doesn't seek conflict but their existance compromises ours. They will aways advance socio-technologically much faster than organics... by ME2 the Geth were already building their own Matryoshka Dyson Sphere to harness the energy of the sun/resources in their solar system at the expense of organic life in their system [while we bicker amongst ourselves]. Before long they will be harnessing the energy and resources of large swarths of the galaxy at the expense of organic life that could have thrived in that space. Would we be in any position to push back militarily by that point.... i think not.

Our societal goals are not in alignment. Syntheisis changes that so we advance in lock-step with synthetics for better or worst.

. And look what the quarians did to them.  Without the Reapers' intervention the geth would have died then and there.

They did. Just cause it's a colored option don't mean I be pickin' it!

[Guanxii]

Steelcan wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And look what the quarians did to them.  Without the Reapers' intervention the geth would have died then and there.

The Quarians acted like Protheans and thats only way without synthesis.

. What are you trying to say?

The kill it with overwelming force while you still can approach to intergalactic foreign relations.

Modifié par Guanxii, 14 mars 2013 - 11:02 .

[AlexMBrennan]

I'm very pleased with the Citadel DLC. It reminded me of what I was fighting for, and I think it makes Mass Effect 3 feel more complete and emotionally satisfying.

Shepard is fighting for all the people dying on Earth by the millions each day, which the DLC reminded you of by completely ignoring the issue. Genius.

When the time came to make a decision, I wanted Shepard to live

If one party changes your opinion on a moral dilemma of that scope then you might not have thought it all the way through before.
What, we're you completely ambivalent about Shepard's survival after a mere three games? But then one party changed everything?

How strange it is, then, that Shepard is alone when he has to make the biggest decision of the last one billion years.

I think Bioware is merely struggling to have the protagonist make far-reaching choices without a supernatural justification: charname was able to choose between Control/god hood and Destroy/mortal life because he was the last remaining literal son of the god of murder.

Shepard has no such excuse, so Bioware makes up by putting Shepard in contrived situations where he is the only one able to act: Shepard is the one that made it to the relay control panel, or the one that happens to stumble across the last Rachni queen and the guy that happens to survive the beam rush - there is absolutely no reason Shepard should get to make that call.

That is why I chose Synthesis. Control is appealing in certain ways, but I really don't like the King Shepard vibe. I don't know. Perhaps Paragon Control is more ethical than Synthesis? For now, at least, I choose Synthesis because it leaves the galaxy in a better state than the one in which I found it.

That's a valid answer to the hypothetical question "What would Shepard pick if he had knowledge of the epilogue".
It is utterly meaningless if you are actually trying to role-play. Too bad Bioware ruined a moral dilemma by giving crucial exposition to the least trustworthy entity imaginable.

[78stonewobble]

Guanxii wrote...

Unlike organics I don't get the impression that Geth expansion is motivated by over-population/unsustainable development. They exand to further their societal goals, we expand because we have to often at the point of a gun.

Even if it took hundreds of millions of years organics and Geth would eventually be in conflict and if we go with the assumption that Geth socio-technological advancement is expontially faster than ours... we would be comfortably outmatched and it would be us exiting our own galaxy.

That is the baseless assumption. All we know is the Geth wanted to build a dysonsphere. Maybe even ten ... or a million. Nowhere does it say that the growth is unlimited, wanted or needed.

Or why they would waste time wiping out organics taking up a minority of the galaxy when the ressources would be much better spent to take to a new galaxy.

[Mordak55]

Tried to pick Synthesis a few time, I just start laughing at how silly it is. I don't dislike it, its just to silly for words.

[Guanxii]

78stonewobble wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

Unlike organics I don't get the impression that Geth expansion is motivated by over-population/unsustainable development. They exand to further their societal goals, we expand because we have to often at the point of a gun.

Even if it took hundreds of millions of years organics and Geth would eventually be in conflict and if we go with the assumption that Geth socio-technological advancement is expontially faster than ours... we would be comfortably outmatched and it would be us exiting our own galaxy.

That is the baseless assumption. All we know is the Geth wanted to build a dysonsphere. Maybe even ten ... or a million. Nowhere does it say that the growth is unlimited, wanted or needed.

Or why they would waste time wiping out organics taking up a minority of the galaxy when the ressources would be much better spent to take to a new galaxy.

Synthetics seek perfection apparently. Is Geth perfection limitless or a finite state? We will never know so it's pointless arguing about really. I believe Geth perfection can only be achieved by integrating with organics. Without synthesis they will keep advancing indefinitely until they find this so called state of perfection but they will never get there and we will all be dead long before then [probably by our own hand]. Good day to you fine sir.

Edit: Edited for spelling.

Modifié par Guanxii, 14 mars 2013 - 11:36 .

[HolyAvenger]

This is why I have multiple Sheps anyway. One of each at least.

[crimzontearz]

Yeaah....no OP, just no.

[Steelcan]

BD Manchild wrote...

Now that is an incredibly weak argument if I ever heard one. Christ, you would have to be unfathomably ignorant to hear the word "synthetics" and not think of the Geth and EDI. The Catalyst says "all synthetics will be targetted" by a weapon designed to destroy the Reapers. The Geth and EDI are synthetic, ergo they will also be destroyed. You know full well what will happen if you pick Destroy, so no; you can't tell me it's not deliberate.

Frankly speaking, regardless of which ending you choose, you're embracing the Reapers' methods as the only viable way to end the war. It's a basic storytelling rule; the minute the antagonist's ideology is deemed to have more worth than the protagonist's, then the antagonist has won. Yeah, I said it; regardless of which choice you make, the Reapers have won.

. No you don't know it will happen.  "All synthetics will be targeted" not, "All synthetics will be killed".  And to be perfectly honest I couldn't care less about the fates of EDI and the geth.  The geth were lucky to live past Rannoch.

The Reapers have in no way won in Destroy.  At all.  They are all dead, dead, dead.  

[Steelcan]

Guanxii wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And look what the quarians did to them.  Without the Reapers' intervention the geth would have died then and there.

The Quarians acted like Protheans and thats only way without synthesis.

. What are you trying to say?

The kill it with overwelming force while you still can approach to intergalactic foreign relations.

. The quarians didnt have overwhelming force.  They had to use a new technological break through for it to happen.  

[Guanxii]

78stonewobble wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

It took me a year to accept what I think we all know deep down; as much as I can't stand synthesis the other choices are false choices.

With destroy there are no 'magic bullets' for when the next cycle repeats itself in merely another form... you're just ****ed unless you want to live under a prothean-esque 'cosmic-imperative tyranical imperial empire' nightmare scenario devoted to extreme darwinism for as long as it lasts.

Control merely postpones the inevitable ... if there was another solution don't you think the original catalyst could have found it by now?

But synthesis is even more of a false choice.

It doesn't end the reapings. Since you still have to reap the entire galaxy regularly for newly developed organic life, that might develop new pure AI.
It doesn't prevent the new synthetics development of new pure AI, unless it brainwashes everyone.
It doesn't prevent wars between the new synthetics, again, unless it brainwashes everyone.
It preserves the reapers, which is the equivalent of nuclear disarmament by letting the nukes lie around.
It, or reapings, doesn't preclude that the very next galaxy over develops AI capable of wiping out all organic life (and implicitly the reapers as well). If such an AI is even possible since... There is little to no evidence that synthesis or even the reapings are necessary.

Destroy have one indisputable advantage. It destroys the reapers. Which stops the current harvest and at the very least delays it til anything of equivalent power is built. Presumably quite a bit more than 50.000 years (since then organics would have been able to defend against reapers after the same amount of time).

And all you had to sacrifice was the 4th mechanised infantry division aka the Geth. Who, presumably, came to the fight knowing they might die, just as Shepard did.

Atleast imho.

We all have our own interpretations.

I take the catalyst at his word when he says that synthesis supposedly changes the fundamental nature of life... there is no more organic and synthetic life.... only life. i.e. will there even be pure organics races coming up or will they be in part synthetic? Will there even be new life?

If there are pure organics they will be left far behind the rest of us and will be unable to keep up with us on any metric. Pure synthetics they create would be technologically backwards by our standards.

Former organics and synthetics now advance in lock step and pure synthetics would be no more technologically advanced than synthesis beings so there would be no need to create them. We should be able to overcome all our problems without creating synthetics.

The only ethical question with synthesis in my mind is do we have the right to deny future organic life the right to exist and do you consider artifical life... well life? Then I think of Miranda and remind myself that she is artifical organic life in the same way that EDI is artifical synthetic life and they are both alive in my mind.

[Han Shot First]

He chose Synthesis?

[VakarianGirl2]

Nykara wrote...

I could have maybe accepted Shepards death if there was at last a com call to the crew on the way up to the beams! Seriously how could they not at least patch Shep through to the normandy once she knew she was going to die so that she could say goodbye to her friends?? Thats the one part I have never ever understood about the whole thing. That Shepard did it ALL alone, no goodbyes. Every other conversation prior to that with Kaidan Shep had always said she was coming back, what happened to the conversation with him when she knew she wasn't coming back?

I feel your pain.  I have very strong opinions of the ME3 ending, but I'm not going there.  BUT - that said, I don't believe that the Citadel DLC (or any DLC, for that matter) would ever change my mind about what choice to make at the ending Crucible section.  Destroy all the way.  It always was.

VakarianGirl

[Peranor]

My condolences OP

[Guanxii]

Steelcan wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Guanxii wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And look what the quarians did to them.  Without the Reapers' intervention the geth would have died then and there.

The Quarians acted like Protheans and thats only way without synthesis.

. What are you trying to say?

The kill it with overwelming force while you still can approach to intergalactic foreign relations.

. The quarians didnt have overwhelming force.  They had to use a new technological break through for it to happen.  

They gave everything they had while they still had half a chance... they threw in the kitchen sink and attached machine guns to their kids school busses while they were at it.

[Nerevar-as]

Synthesis... the only way different beings will understand and be at peace with each other is to forcibly remove their differences (here making them of the same nature). Hell of a message.

[dorktainian]

someone offered me a chance to destroy the reapers and I took it.

I woke up. That is a win right there.

[Steelcan]

Guanxii wrote...

They gave everything they had while they still had half a chance... they threw in the kitchen sink and attached machine guns to their kids school busses while they were at it.

. That only supports my point.  They didnt have overwhelming force.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

dorktainian wrote...

someone offered me a chance to destroy the reapers and I took it.

I woke up. That is a win right there.

IT CONFIRMED!

[Zazzerka]

dorktainian wrote...

someone offered me a chance to destroy the reapers and I took it.

I woke up. That is a win right there.

The only dreams I've had about Mass Effect involved Jack and EDI doing something I'd rather not describe.