501 réponses à ce sujet

[TweedleDee66]

“Did you forgive the ending of Me3 with the Extended Cut or with the Citadel DLC?”

-No on either count.

The Extended Cut ending pissed me off more actually. Why? Simple, because if anyone of the lead game developers had the backbone to stand up to What’s His Name (sorry don’t even like to type his name, kind of like Voldemort) we might have had this ending in the shipped game in the first place and avoided most of that crap storm. It still resolves a lot of things but I will never like the star brat idea and the illogical “the created will always destroy the creators” bs crap or the catalyst/crucible magic weapon plotline.

Citadel.
Again it’s a decent download and I enjoyed it mostly, however the ending is right out of The Mummy Returns -with the hero and villain hanging on an edge hero gets saved by a friend while the villain’s friend leaves. I expect the next game to have the big bad guy be the hero’s father now.

The post story content was decent but again as with From Ashes, it should have or at least part of it, been included in the original game especially the Thane content. It felt more like fan service to win over any remaining Mass Effect fans BioWare still has than a real worthy final story based download.

“Do I like ME3 now?”

-With the extended cut its just a little more playable but it still a huge let down on all fronts for me, from lack of creativity, bugs and glitches, not enough squad mates to cover for you if Tali and Garrus had died in ME2, Harbinger showing up as a mere cameo, Allers, killing off characters by twitter or getting some lame in game email to Cerberus being the bad guy more than the Reapers. Ok I’ll stop on those but you get the idea, to much crap. The only high point in the game comes from the Geth/Quarian and Krogan/genophage storylines being resolved.

The game is what it is for me. To bad the trilogy ended on such a rushed and unfinished blahness instead of being truly a epic spectacular bang.

[78stonewobble]

You know what would have been waaaay better than synthesis? Atleast from a paragon perspective.

People of the galaxy learning from past mistakes, making better decisions and being nicer towards eachother... By themselves, but maybe a bit inspired by Shepard.

Overcoming and selfimprovement beats being given all the "answers" everyday in my humble oppinion.

Now that would have been worth Shepard sacrificing himself for.

[KLGChaos]

While I'm not mad anymore, I still will never enjoy the endings and I won't buy another Bioware game again. That's pretty much all we can do at this point-- take our dollars elsewhere.

[RainbowDazed]

I like the ending, though it took me over six months to get the beauty of it. I like the Catalyst, the origin of reapers and how Shepard's story ends. After getting the ending I've found myself liking the original ending maybe even more than the EC. I think I get now what the team was trying to achieve with it. I hope they will keep on taking risks like that in the future aswell and keep their artistic integrity.

EDIT: For me the most helpful thing has been time and the discussions I've had here on BSN. I do like the EC and the Citadel is awesome but they did not make me like the end more.

Modifié par RainbowDazed, 15 mars 2013 - 01:54 .

[Outsider edge]

The last hour of Mass Effect 3 will forever standout as a rushed incomprehensible mess of an endgame. From the hordemode slug to the beam, narrative inconsistencies, filler crap like turret sections, extra added nonsense like the extract scene till the horrendous conclusion on the Citadel itself.

Bioware had ample time to fix or expand on it but were reluctant or perhaps not even capable (looking at the EC and Leviathan) to sufficiently save the utter mess we got served in the main game.

The story of Mass Effect has now been retroactively broken by what transpired on the Citadel. And it's also the reason i will stay extremely wary whenever a future Casey Hudson/Mac Walters helmed project will be revealed. Cause as leads both of them have proven themselves capable of ruining something that with such a powerful foundation should have been a slamdunk to conclude sufficiently. Especially since everyone knew Shepard's story was over.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 15 mars 2013 - 02:12 .

[78stonewobble]

RainbowDazed wrote...

I like the ending, though it took me over six months to get the beauty of it. I like the Catalyst, the origin of reapers and how Shepard's story ends. After getting the ending I've found myself liking the original ending maybe even more than the EC. I think I get now what the team was trying to achieve with it. I hope they will keep on taking risks like that in the future aswell and keep their artistic integrity.

EDIT: For me the most helpful thing has been time and the discussions I've had here on BSN. I do like the EC and the Citadel is awesome but they did not make me like the end more.

Like the beauty that the fact that reapers and life exists totally negates the point of the Reapers and the reapings?

Or maybe you can explain it to me. If evil godly powerfull AI (which necessarily means more powerfull than the reapers) hellbent on the extermination of all organics everywhere (and reapers are partially organic and/or on the side of organic life) can and did exist. Then howcome there is reapers and life everywhere? 

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 15 mars 2013 - 02:06 .

[Killdren88]

Outsider edge wrote...

The last hour of Mass Effect 3 will forever standout as a rushed incomprehensible mess of an endgame. From the hordemode slug too the beam, narrative inconsistencies, filler crap like turret sections, extra added nonsense like the extract scene till the horrendous conclusion on the Citadel itself.

Bioware had ample time too fix or expand on it but were reluctant or perhaps not even capable (looking at the EC and Leviathan) too sufficiently save the utter mess we got served in the main game.

The story of Mass Effect has now been retroactively broken by what transpired on the Citadel. And it's also the reason i will stay extremely wary whenever a future Casey Hudson/Mac Walters helmed project will be revealed. Cause as leads both of them have proven themselves capable of ruining something that with such a powerful foundation should have been a slamdunk too conclude sufficiently. Especially since everyone knew Shepard's story was over.

Oh I would not worry about that I'm sure Bioware won't let Mac, and Hudson do anything on their own after this.

[Linkenski]

I liked the Citadel DLC, but the ending will suck forever, because it feels too sudden and random still. I don't think i will ever forget that Bioware screwed up this bad, when i used to know them for their great storytelling talents.

But the worst thing had to be the auto-dialogue. I won't ever forgive them for reducing the amount of player choices in ME3 compared to the other to games. I simply don't understand why Bioware didn't see how much this hurt their game.

Everytime the dialogues just play out as cutscenes you start noticing how bad some of it is, which is something i didn't think to much of in ME2, because even if Shepard said something stupid, it was because i chose to make him say it. In ME3 he automatically pulls off all these retarded lines "We fight or we die!" or "how about destroying them?" etc. but not only that is annoying. Whenever a character asks for Shepard's opinion you as the player are preparing yourself for a dialogue choice, but it is rarely the case, because Shepard is his own character.

Bioware defends this auto-dialogue-less-choice-worse-gameplay/roleplay because they think it makes Shepard "more human". In the end i think they were just terribly lazy.

Modifié par Linkenski, 15 mars 2013 - 02:58 .

[CronoDragoon]

The EC made the endings merely average, whereas before they were terribad. In other words, the EC did a lot, but the overall endings are still meh.

[moater boat]

moater boat wrote...

I'll add basic logic to the list of things you suck at.

I don't know how many times I have to explain it, but I will do it again. Not for your benefit, but because I am hoping you miss this statement one more time, so I can point out how weak your reading comprehension is. Are you ready for it? Here's the statement one more time.

No one can PROVE what abilities these fictional characters possess.

Eterna5 wrote...
And yet you sit here, implying I'm an idiot, while essentially doing the same thing. 

Holy Crap! You did it again! That's downright hilarious!  Once again you have failed to comprehend a basic point that I have made to you, what 3 times already? I'm not counting, but I know it was more than once, which is should be enough for anyone with a properly functioning brain. I am not trying to PROVE that the reapers can see. At no point in my arguments did I make the claim that what I said PROVES it as indisputable lore. What I did is draw upon real life scientific facts, and firmly established game lore, and drew the only logical conclusion from the evidence I presented. This is called reasoning. It is the process of taking known information and extrapoliting from it. Unfortunately for you, it also requires above animal intelligence.

moater boat wrote...

Did it stick this time? Is that thought firmly embedded in that murky quagmire of misinformation and backwards logic you call a brain?

Eterna5 wrote...

Personal insults make me wan't to believe your flimsy points more. 

I don't care if you believe me or not. To do so would impy that I somehow value your opinion in some way. I don't. It is utterly worthless to me. I insult you because I enjoy doing so, and I am a bad, bad man.

moater boat wrote...

I'm going to assume that you managed to finally grasp this point and build on it. I was not trying to PROVE that they can see visible light. I was trying (and I'm fairly certain I succeeded) in explaining why being unable to sense solar energy of that specific wavelength would be a glaring weakness that no being of godlike power would possess.

Eterna5 wrote...

Why? Why do you find it so obvious that Reapers can see as organics do when there is plenty if inferred evidence that says otherwise? Nothing you've said scientificly proves your assumption more valid than mine. 

Because they possess technology that is several orders of magnitude above what we have. Because detecting electromagnetic radiation is the best way to locate objects in the black of space. Because it would be utterly stupid for them not to be able to detect wavelengths within that specific band, especially when it is a statistical certainty that some of the harvested races from previous cycles possessed this ability. There is no inferred evidence that I know of, nor any that you have provided, which shows that they happen to be blind to electromagnetic radiation of that specific wavelength. And you don't get to make ANY claims about scientific proof until you show that you have at least a rudimentary understanding of basic scientific principles.

[78stonewobble]

That reminds me:

"Ooooh darkmatter... Better bring a flashlight..."

[Mobius-Silent]

78stonewobble wrote...

Or maybe you can explain it to me. If evil godly powerfull AI (which necessarily means more powerfull than the reapers) hellbent on the extermination of all organics everywhere (and reapers are partially organic and/or on the side of organic life) can and did exist. Then howcome there is reapers and life everywhere? 

The Catalyst isn't "hellbent on the extermination of all organics everywhere" It is harvesting and storing everything it felt was important for the race ro remain "alive" (by a very literal, emotionless definition) to prevent that race making unbound synthetics (with no emotions) that would eventually eliminate all organic life and sterilise the galaxy.

Each time the Reapers have to "fight" they have losses, and those losses are in direct conflict with their goals hence the seek to minimise the conflict through emotional manuipulation, indoctrination and sneak attacks, none of which are effective agains some theoretical other synthetic menace.

I see what Bioware were doing, and it _could_ have been done well... but it wasn't. Even the EC just patched the most obvious holes it didn't correct the massive problems with the tone, pacing and narrative incoherence.

• You could have foreshadowed the existance of the Catalyst
• You could have made the details of the end more dependant on our achievements
• You could have made it more obvious that the "3 option" were ours to make and not the Catalyst's to give us
• You shouldn't have chosen the child as the Catalyst Avatar
• You should have been more clear than the EC about the nature of the options available (again foreshadowing) from the get go
• The whole "crash on eden" scene was just _horrible_

But... it could have worked, it just didn't

[MassivelyEffective0730]

KLGChaos wrote...

While I'm not mad anymore, I still will never enjoy the endings and I won't buy another Bioware game again. That's pretty much all we can do at this point-- take our dollars elsewhere.

I still have a pit in my stomach and some residual anger, but for the most part this.

I really hope the sales of ME4 are affected by the 'minority'.

[otis0310]

The ending didn't ruin the franchise for me, the whole darn game did. The plot is a mess, here you have the biggest war in the history of mankind and the hero is the only person who knew it was coming and tried to do anything about it. What do they do when it happens? Ignore the reapers and focus on some para military organization called Cerberus.

I can accept that TIM was indoctrinated and that given how he runs Cerberus then most of the organization would be a threat. But when the biggest fight in the whole game is TIM's henchmen and the main villain is TIM (plus some kid you see afterwards), one has to ask themselves "The entire galaxy is being invaded by hundreds of thousands of ships that are miles long and each one has the firepower of half our fleet, doesn't this para military group seem like a minor concern?"

Yet most of the plot revolves around Cerberus anyway. Plus the predictable "actually the Prothean's did find a weapon to beat the Reapers all we have to do is build it" plot device, rather than the more intelligent "Find out who made the Reaper's, why the made them and how, and with any luck you might find a weakness in the process" approach (or one of dozens of better plots).

Then adding on top of that using multiplayer maps as side quest maps, most side quests being "fetch it quests", Tali's face being photoshopped, it is just one huge mess.

True Story: My hard drive was fried last August during a power surge, I since reinstalled Dragon Age Origins, Civilization 5, Ultima series, King's Quest series and other games some of which I had for over 20 years. Whenever I think of playing Mass Effect, I think of Mass Effect 3, then put the disc back in the box and put the box away in my basement.

As for the Citadel DLC, never bought it, or any other DLC. I am not throwing away good money after bad.

[Zagardal]

Did you forgive the ending of Me3 with the Extended Cut or with the Citadel DLC?
No, the ending is crap, and the EC did practically nothing to fix it. Citadel DLC is amazing in it's own right, but the ending is still the ending.

Do you like Me3 now?
Never stopped liking it. Even though I hate the ending (because of lack of explanation and dialog choices, not because it's depressing), I do like the game. That being said, the plot does have giant problems; recurring plot devices, derivative narrative, choices reduced to military strength, and of course a deus ex machina the size of a reaper. I can live with all that, but it makes ME3 by far the weakest game in the trilogy.

Are you still mad at it or you can enjoy it now?
I've always been able to enjoy it, but the ending does discourage further playthroughs. Feels like "what's the point?".

Would you have liked ME3 if the base game shipped with the EC and Citadel DLC contents?
Citadel DLC would have been great. EC didn't address the real problems, so I can live without it.

Modifié par Zagardal, 15 mars 2013 - 05:00 .

[RainbowDazed]

78stonewobble wrote...

RainbowDazed wrote...

I like the ending, though it took me over six months to get the beauty of it. I like the Catalyst, the origin of reapers and how Shepard's story ends. After getting the ending I've found myself liking the original ending maybe even more than the EC. I think I get now what the team was trying to achieve with it. I hope they will keep on taking risks like that in the future aswell and keep their artistic integrity.

EDIT: For me the most helpful thing has been time and the discussions I've had here on BSN. I do like the EC and the Citadel is awesome but they did not make me like the end more.

Like the beauty that the fact that reapers and life exists totally negates the point of the Reapers and the reapings?

Or maybe you can explain it to me. If evil godly powerfull AI (which necessarily means more powerfull than the reapers) hellbent on the extermination of all organics everywhere (and reapers are partially organic and/or on the side of organic life) can and did exist. Then howcome there is reapers and life everywhere? 

I'm a bit busy right now, I'll get back to you in a few hours. In the mean time you can answer these questions for yourself: 

- What were the reapers actually reaping (was their goal to exterminate all organic life)
- Why were the reapers reaping (what was the catalyst trying to accomplish with the cycles)
- What was Shepard choosing at the end when he was presented with three choices?

I'll give you the correct answers later tonight.  

[Outsider edge]

otis0310 wrote...

The ending didn't ruin the franchise for me, the whole darn game did. The plot is a mess, here you have the biggest war in the history of mankind and the hero is the only person who knew it was coming and tried to do anything about it. What do they do when it happens? Ignore the reapers and focus on some para military organization called Cerberus.

I can accept that TIM was indoctrinated and that given how he runs Cerberus then most of the organization would be a threat. But when the biggest fight in the whole game is TIM's henchmen and the main villain is TIM (plus some kid you see afterwards), one has to ask themselves "The entire galaxy is being invaded by hundreds of thousands of ships that are miles long and each one has the firepower of half our fleet, doesn't this para military group seem like a minor concern?"

Yet most of the plot revolves around Cerberus anyway. Plus the predictable "actually the Prothean's did find a weapon to beat the Reapers all we have to do is build it" plot device, rather than the more intelligent "Find out who made the Reaper's, why the made them and how, and with any luck you might find a weakness in the process" approach (or one of dozens of better plots).

Then adding on top of that using multiplayer maps as side quest maps, most side quests being "fetch it quests", Tali's face being photoshopped, it is just one huge mess.

True Story: My hard drive was fried last August during a power surge, I since reinstalled Dragon Age Origins, Civilization 5, Ultima series, King's Quest series and other games some of which I had for over 20 years. Whenever I think of playing Mass Effect, I think of Mass Effect 3, then put the disc back in the box and put the box away in my basement.

As for the Citadel DLC, never bought it, or any other DLC. I am not throwing away good money after bad.

Agreed.

The endings are just at the top of a myriad of problems with ME3. I would also like to add simply broken mechanics like the face importer not working at release or multiplayer needed for the best singleplayer ending.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 15 mars 2013 - 05:06 .

[VintageUtti]

hell destroyer wrote...

Did you forgive the ending of Me3 with the Extended Cut or with the Citadel DLC? Do you like Me3 now? Are you still mad at it or you can enjoy it now?
Would you have liked ME3 if the base game shipped with the EC and Citadel DLC contents?

Myself, I've forgiven it with the EC.

"Forgive" might be the wrong term. I hated the original endings with a passion. With the EC I was still disappointed that they didn't add anything more to the breath scene, but I was satisfied enough with it to put the ending behind me. With the Citadel DLC I will finally play my other games I never imported into ME3 but I doubt I'll play through the ending again.

The game definitely should have shipped with the EC to begin with. Probably Leviathan too. However, I think the Citadel DLC works best when you play it after having seen the ending already (and were disappointed with it), so it takes your mind off it. The Citadel definitely feels like the proper goodbye to the series.

[archangel1996]

Why should i be mad? BW didn't care in March 2012, they are not going to care in March 2013... so, like the ending, what's the point?
We all can be mad and they still wouldn't do a thing, and they didn't a thing while they lost 50% of their fan, so what's the point?
At least i learned to not trust too much a SH

[kobayashi-maru]

The problem with the EC is pretty much highlighted in the video of the lecture by Ray Muzyka linked on the no spoilers board. The decided before working on the EC that they wouldn't change anything only add things to clarify. So some fixes which people blame on bad writing -Normandy on Earth/still crashing- are just best way they could find to patch the ending.

I'm not being wholly negative most of ME3 is fantastic, the DLC was great and MP is addictive. But the crash scene in context of EC is pointless since they just fix ship and take off again. In original they get stranded so really in EC it shouldn't crash on Eden. Easier fix would be crash on Earth and have crew look up at Citadel burning in sky or something akin to that. The writers couldn't though as they were locked in to original ending.

Modifié par kobayashi-maru, 15 mars 2013 - 05:40 .

[mopotter]

Still dislike the ending options. EC allowed me to play two games instead of my original one. With the new DLC I'll play some of the other Shepards I have but I'll ignore the final battle. The ending is not the only thing I had issues with so while having the DLC and EC at the beginning would have helped, It probably would have made me focus on the other problems more.

I won't be pre-ordering future games. But I've always said after it's out, if I hear good things from people I trust, not critics, I'll buy it. I think they are a good company and they tell good stories with interesting chaaracters. If I hadn't played the first two games, I'd probably have enjoyed ME3 with the EC but if they are headed in the direction they took ME3 I am not interested.

[PainCakesx]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

So the crucible somehow released enough nannites to cover a volume of millions if not hundreds of millions of cubic *light years* in volume (did the math, the galaxy is roughly 500,000,000, ly^3 in volume if assumed cylindrical with radius of 50,000 ly and thickness of 1,000 ly)? Not to mention that there are somehow enough to attach to every strand of DNA of every being in the galaxy (trillions per life form)? That's roughly one hextillion life strands of DNA that are to be affected - a number that is nearly impossible to comprehend.

I hate to say it, but there is not enough energy in the the entire universe for this to happen. It's pure space magic.

The "Green wave" is a transport mechanism (Much like the mass relay) the nano[pico?] tech is only deposited/assembled at suitable points.

EnvyTB075 wrote...
I'd actually like to know where this "nanites" thing came from, sounds like fanon to me

The cinematic showing something "wrapping" the molecules in a DNA helix, the elements move into place and form a matrix, at that scale they could be called nanites (or picites) as they are tech operating at that scale.

That said, no I'm still pissed off, the ending is still bad and badly implimented. I'm still mad as hell and I an highly unlikely to give Bioware/EA any more money.

I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 300 nonillion (300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is ridiculous.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 300,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ/mol in energy, so we are talking in terms of trillions, quadrillions or even more joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover an estimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 16 mars 2013 - 04:28 .

[PainCakesx]

*double post*

Modifié par PainCakesx, 15 mars 2013 - 06:40 .

[Fenrir__]

I can forgive Bioware for the Ending. I did however play the "Full Game" Omega, Leviathan, Citadel, EC all of the DLC before experiencing the ending and it is a much better and more satisfying experience. Still not happy about the crappy choices but my characters get some closure.

I just don't see how they can continue Mass Effect beyond ME3 without canonizing an Ending such as destroy and tweaking a few things here and there along the way to make it possible as it stands IMO you can continue from the Destroy Ending but Synthesis and Control seem to be two very final endings that stand better with no sequel ever coming less, macguffins, hard questions and potential Deux Ex Machina running around. After what they did to ME3 can the writers even handle trying to tackle the idea of Synthesis or explain anything about controlshep besides him saying goodbye and thanks for all the fish in a sequel.