501 réponses à ce sujet

[RainbowDazed]

78stonewobble wrote...

RainbowDazed wrote...

I like the ending, though it took me over six months to get the beauty of it. I like the Catalyst, the origin of reapers and how Shepard's story ends. After getting the ending I've found myself liking the original ending maybe even more than the EC. I think I get now what the team was trying to achieve with it. I hope they will keep on taking risks like that in the future aswell and keep their artistic integrity.

EDIT: For me the most helpful thing has been time and the discussions I've had here on BSN. I do like the EC and the Citadel is awesome but they did not make me like the end more.

Like the beauty that the fact that reapers and life exists totally negates the point of the Reapers and the reapings?

Or maybe you can explain it to me. If evil godly powerfull AI (which necessarily means more powerfull than the reapers) hellbent on the extermination of all organics everywhere (and reapers are partially organic and/or on the side of organic life) can and did exist. Then howcome there is reapers and life everywhere? 

I'll keep this short: 

These I believe were established in-game: 
- Sentient organic beings create tools to make life easier. 
- With time these tools become more intelligent and at some point they might become self-aware (the birth of synthetic life)
- Tools are created the serve a purpose
- A self-aware being locked in servitude is usually concidered to be a slave
- Self-awarness of synthetics often leads to a conflic between organic and synthetic life
- This conflict creates a situation where some or all forms of life may perish. 
- The leviathans tried to solve this problem but could not find a solution
- They created an AI to provide a solution (the catalyst)
- The catalyst found no solution to the question, but it found a way to preserve organic and sythetic life in galaxy (cycles)
- With this solution the catalyst was infact trying preserve life, not to abolish it. 
- The catalyst created the mass relays and the citadel to control and guide the evolution of organic life

This is my speculation:
- The purpose of the cycles is not merely to preserve status quo. They have another objective
- With the cycles the catalyst is a) preserving life and  trying to find a solution to the assigned task
- The catalyst is aware of the crucible program and has an active role in ensuring that it is preserved throughout the cycles. 
- The Crucible is something that the organic life at this stage of evolution can not fully understand but have a chance to succeed in building. It is a project that possibly thousands of different organic species and civilizations have contributed on over the cycles under high stress and extreme motivation. 
- Building the crucible encourages and forces the organic life to look for solutions outside the means of conventional victory and to consider other alternatives (reaper indoctrination encourages organics to consider the possibility of controlling the reapers)

These I believe were established in-game: 
- The crucible is a tool that provides various options for how to change the status quo (the cycles and the reapers). 
- If more advanced, it offers more alternatives. 
- The three possible outcomes that can be achieved with the crucible (during this cycle) are: 

• Destroy: a reset button which destroys all technology based on the reapers and gives the galaxy a chance for a fresh start.
• Control: Commander Shepard becomes the new catalyst and assumes to control of the reapers. The galaxy preserves all the advanced technology based on the reapers and the reapers remain as servants to the new catalyst.
• Synthesis: a solution to bring synthetic and organic life more closer to each other. Only possible in a cycle where the organic beings are ready to accept such merging. The highly advanced crucible build as a collaboration between different species suggests that this cycle is ready.
• Refuse: the cycle refuses to choose from the options the crucible enables and the cycles continue. 

- This cycle is the first one to finish the crucible
- The story suggests that the crucible is not yet finished (=there could be even more ideal solutions, but this is what this cycle will have to deal with). If refusal is chosen, another cycle might finish the work. 

This is my speculation: 
- The catalyst hasn't still found a permanent solution, but it conciders this method (building the crucible) to have the highest chance of success. Out of the options presented the catalyst perceives synthesis to have the highest and destroy the least chance at success. Control does just what it suggests: keeps the galaxy under control. Only instead of the AI, Shepard will be doing the controlling. 

I think that about sums it. Still took me half an hour to type this up, damn. 

Modifié par RainbowDazed, 15 mars 2013 - 07:08 .

[otis0310]

Instead of quoting that huge section PainCakesX
I will simply state that this, other than simply bad writing and
throwing out all lore and story to date, is another reason the endings
suck.

Side Note: Anyone notice that the catalyst could have
simply opened the Citadel's Mass Effect Relay itself in ME1, making the
whole plot absurd?

I mean there is this big AI in a secret room
of the Citadel and it needs a reaper to manually override the Citadel's
controls even though the AI is in the Citadel itself and is therefore
already in control of that station? Makes no sense......

Another note: The of the biggest problems with this catalyst AI is that it is based on assumptions.  It is assuming that robots (synthetic life) evolve to become self aware and are not programmed that way,ever. It also assumes they are made to be slaves and not designed from the beginning to be equals.  It assumes that when robots do become self aware that it will lead to war, not reconciliation.

This is basically because the Leviathans saw a problem, a problem the quarians and apparently the protheans also created.  This 3 examples out of how many cycles?  And only one species in this one out of how many?

The catalyst is trapped by its programming to believe there is a problem that it must solve although that simply might not be the case.  After all, it is possible the quarians and geth are at peace, this fact disproves the Catalyst's assertion.

I still like the idea of saying "Hey you snot nosed brat, there is the robot race called the geth, they were made by a race called the quarians.  After several years of fighting they finally made peace and are now living together on the same planet.  How does that fit into your 'synthetics and organics cannot coexist' concept?  Seems to prove you wrong don't it boy?"

That would be EXACTLY what my Shepherd would tell him, and see him defend his argument.

Modifié par otis0310, 15 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[Kel Riever]

otis0310 wrote...

Instead of quoting that huge section PainCakesX I will simply state that this, other than simply bad writing and throwing out all lore and story to date, is another reason the endings suck.

Side Note: Anyone notice that the catalyst could have simply opened the Citadel's Mass Effect Relay itself in ME1, making the whole plot absurd?

I mean there is this big AI in a secret room of the Citadel and it needs a reaper to manually override the Citadel's controls even though the AI is in the Citadel itself and is therefore already in control of that station? Makes no sense......

^Another, "Minor," and conveniently forgotten about story detail.

[moater boat]

PainCakesx wrote...

I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 100 nonillion (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is unthinkable.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ in energy, so we are talking in terms of 100s decillions of joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover anestimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

Fantastic work

[Fenrir__]

otis0310 wrote...

Instead of quoting that huge section PainCakesX I will simply state that this, other than simply bad writing and throwing out all lore and story to date, is another reason the endings suck.

Side Note: Anyone notice that the catalyst could have simply opened the Citadel's Mass Effect Relay itself in ME1, making the whole plot absurd?

I mean there is this big AI in a secret room of the Citadel and it needs a reaper to manually override the Citadel's controls even though the AI is in the Citadel itself and is therefore already in control of that station? Makes no sense......

The only thing that I can guess is that, the Catalyst is the one controlling the Keepers and that the damage the Protheans did affects the Catalyst control requiring Sovereign to intialize the overrride. It is possible that over the cycles organize have affected the control the Catalyst has over some aspest of the Citadel. It is a plost whole but one that can be sort of explained with the Keeper explanation.

[ZerebusPrime]

The ending still feels like a nonending. Something big is missing.

[Redbelle]

Fenrir__ wrote...

I can forgive Bioware for the Ending. I did however play the "Full Game" Omega, Leviathan, Citadel, EC all of the DLC before experiencing the ending and it is a much better and more satisfying experience. Still not happy about the crappy choices but my characters get some closure.

*snip

I went a bit more OTT in playing the full game by wiping all my SP save game's and having at it with all the DLC loaded on insanity mode.

I've only gotten past Palaven and picked up Javik, but thus far I've noticed the following:

The kid, who we first see playing on a rooftop and then in a vent, isn't annoying at all. The scene between him and Shepard is in fact rather touching. I'd forgotten how that played out at the start due to that darn Catalyst.

Auto-dialogue is a problem as, not all, but many conversation's only have two dialogue options. Then I remembered! ME3 has a mode that doesn't give dialogue option's and suddenly the lack of dialogue choice and auto dialogue made sense in how the game was developed. To which I can only ask BW, next time you make a ME game, build it up with the full on RPG gamer's in mind instead of those who do not want dialogue option's.

Which lead's onto.....

The first full dialogue wheel conversation where I could investgate and choose replies happened after Palaven with Admiral Hackett the first time he appeared in the War room's comm. The dialogue wheel came alive at that point.

Which devolved to......

Talking to Joker when I clicked him opened the dialogue wheel as I expected, but then when I clicked on him again, he wouldn't go into dialogue wheel mode and only gave me "commander"? replies.

Which continued with......

Vega. I could walk up to him and never enter dialogue wheel mode. Only getting stock replies which did not allow me to get to know him better.

Summary. I'm rediscovering the love of ME3, but now I'm aware of the problem's I can see them more clearly. The problem, thus far described as 'auto dialogue', is present, due I'm sure to the game's other play style of action mode. But the full RPG mode's conversation's are a scattering of dialogue wheel, dialogue wheel up to a point then stock phrases or only stock phrases.

I think making the game to cater to action or RPG fan's is terrific in concept, but in practice BW did not achieve the high standard's of dialogue wheel interactivity seen in ME1 and 2. Also, leaving door and terminal hacking out of full RPG mode took away from the puzzle element of ME. Still, lesson's to be learnt for ME4.

Modifié par Redbelle, 15 mars 2013 - 07:21 .

[PainCakesx]

moater boat wrote...

Fantastic work

Thank you sir. I had to tweak a few of the numbers I put down (easy to get confused when typing out so many zeroes  )

The scales are simply incomprehensible.

And to think my calculations are likely orders of magnitude lower than their "true" values.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 15 mars 2013 - 07:23 .

[otis0310]

Fenrir__ wrote...

otis0310 wrote...

Instead of quoting that huge section PainCakesX I will simply state that this, other than simply bad writing and throwing out all lore and story to date, is another reason the endings suck.

Side Note: Anyone notice that the catalyst could have simply opened the Citadel's Mass Effect Relay itself in ME1, making the whole plot absurd?

I mean there is this big AI in a secret room of the Citadel and it needs a reaper to manually override the Citadel's controls even though the AI is in the Citadel itself and is therefore already in control of that station? Makes no sense......

The only thing that I can guess is that, the Catalyst is the one controlling the Keepers and that the damage the Protheans did affects the Catalyst control requiring Sovereign to intialize the overrride. It is possible that over the cycles organize have affected the control the Catalyst has over some aspest of the Citadel. It is a plost whole but one that can be sort of explained with the Keeper explanation.

Not really, the Catalyst is smart.  At the end of the last cycle it should have detected the damage that was done, and tried to repair it.  You get the impression that after the protheans did the damage the Citadel lay abandoned for millenia until the Asari found it.    So basically you're telling me the stupid AI sat there for thousands of years knowing that its control over the keepers was compromised and could not open the Citadel Relay when the time came and did nothing to repair the damage at all?

There are sensors on the Citadel, it must have seen the prothean arrive on the Citadel after their race was whiped out, and it must have seen what they were doing, and be smart enough to know what impact it would have.  So no, the keeper control does not explain it, since the AI made no attempt to fix the damage.  Unless you threw in the "Stupidest AI ever made" concept as well.

Modifié par otis0310, 15 mars 2013 - 07:32 .

[Skullheart]

Yeah, the catalist is a retard AI.

[Fenrir__]

otis0310 wrote...

Fenrir__ wrote...

otis0310 wrote...

Instead of quoting that huge section PainCakesX I will simply state that this, other than simply bad writing and throwing out all lore and story to date, is another reason the endings suck.

Side Note: Anyone notice that the catalyst could have simply opened the Citadel's Mass Effect Relay itself in ME1, making the whole plot absurd?

I mean there is this big AI in a secret room of the Citadel and it needs a reaper to manually override the Citadel's controls even though the AI is in the Citadel itself and is therefore already in control of that station? Makes no sense......

The only thing that I can guess is that, the Catalyst is the one controlling the Keepers and that the damage the Protheans did affects the Catalyst control requiring Sovereign to intialize the overrride. It is possible that over the cycles organize have affected the control the Catalyst has over some aspest of the Citadel. It is a plost whole but one that can be sort of explained with the Keeper explanation.

Not really, the Catalyst is smart.  At the end of the last cycle it should have detected the damage that was done, and tried to repair it.  You get the impression that after the protheans did the damage the Citadel lay abandoned for millenia until the Asari found it.    So basically you're telling me the stupid AI sat there for thousands of years knowing that its control over the keepers was compromised and could not open the Citadel Relay when the time came and did nothing to repair the damage at all?

There are sensors on the Citadel, it must have seen the prothean arrive on the Citadel after their race was whiped out, and it must have seen what they were doing, and be smart enough to know what impact it would have.  So no, the keeper control does not explain it, since the AI made no attempt to fix the damage.  Unless you through in the "Stupidest AI ever made" concept as well.

I never said it was a good explanation, I just said it was an explanation. We also can't understand what the AI does in it's fair times, whoe knows whatever the Protheans did may have even affected the Catalyst themselves. 

BTW I am not defending the Catalyst at all, that was one of the first things I thought when I met the damn thing. I am just showing you the band-aid that potentialy work to cover this plot hole It does need way more fleshing out however.

[Xamufam]

PainCakesx wrote...
I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 100 nonillion (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is unthinkable.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ in energy, so we are talking in terms of 100s decillions of joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover an estimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

1 more thing
Who said that life has to be based on DNA or RNA
"Extraterrestrial Life May Not be Based on DNA or RNA"
Origin of life on earth
www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953425311.Ge.r.html

NASA Finds New Life

[otis0310]

Skullheart wrote...

Yeah, the catalist is a retard AI.

And so is the writer who thought him up, if you ask me.

[PainCakesx]

Troxa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 100 nonillion (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is unthinkable.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ in energy, so we are talking in terms of 100s decillions of joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover an estimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

1 more thing
Who said that life has to be based on DNA or RNA
"Extraterrestrial Life May Not be Based on DNA or RNA"
Origin of life on earth
www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953425311.Ge.r.html

NASA Finds New Life

Another good point.

So basically the Reapers created nannites of altering the genetic codes of organisms they've never seen before. 

[otis0310]

Troxa wrote...

1 more thing
Who said that life has to be based on DNA or RNA
"Extraterrestrial Life May Not be Based on DNA or RNA"
Origin of life on earth
www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953425311.Ge.r.html

NASA Finds New Life

That would throw off his calculations all right.   But are there not numerous references as to how the species have vastly different DNA.  And they actually call it DNA.   Even if there were not, unless they have some other sort of genetic material that the nanites can bind to, the space magic just gets worse, not better, how could nanites even work in that case?

And I am positve the game does refer to DNA by name, which is the reason quarians and turians cannot eat the same food.  So even though alien life might not, life in this game does.

[Xamufam]

PainCakesx wrote...

Troxa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 100 nonillion (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is unthinkable.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ in energy, so we are talking in terms of 100s decillions of joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover an estimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

1 more thing
Who said that life has to be based on DNA or RNA
"Extraterrestrial Life May Not be Based on DNA or RNA"
Origin of life on earth
www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953425311.Ge.r.html

NASA Finds New Life

Another good point.

So basically the Reapers created nannites of altering the genetic codes of organisms they've never seen before. 

here is some more
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15377303/26#15498913


This video has somethings also the imune system would react instantly if the persons DNA changed killing the person
www.youtube.com/watch

[Musashi Orboro]

The extended cut fixed a few plot holes and made the endings more coherent. Ultimately though it was little more than a giant band aid. The ending wasn't the only bad part of the the story, it was just the most obvious. I did one playthrough, and watched all the EC endings. The story as a whole seemed rushed, nonsensical and ignored most of your choices in the previous two games. It just did not measure up to ME1 and ME2 as a story. Sadly, I have no intention of doing any more playthroughs of the series. :-(

[Neizd]

I did forgive but I won't forget that we didn't get all the ending choices that should be in game. There is still a lack of Shepard going against all odds and still standing strong like in ME1 and ME2.

Extended cut and citadel dlc made the game better...but it still lacks some things to made it perfect for me.

[PainCakesx]

otis0310 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

1 more thing
Who said that life has to be based on DNA or RNA
"Extraterrestrial Life May Not be Based on DNA or RNA"
Origin of life on earth
www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-03/953425311.Ge.r.html

NASA Finds New Life

That would throw off his calculations all right.   But are there not numerous references as to how the species have vastly different DNA.  And they actually call it DNA.   Even if there were not, unless they have some other sort of genetic material that the nanites can bind to, the space magic just gets worse, not better, how could nanites even work in that case?

And I am positve the game does refer to DNA by name, which is the reason quarians and turians cannot eat the same food.  So even though alien life might not, life in this game does.

They did. And I corrected another error in my calculations.

I meant to say that each reaction would be in the kilojoules per mole. This makes the total # of joules needed more reasonable, but still ridiculous.

And there's the fact that the energy needed to fire off a hexillion nanobots at super-relativistic speeds is insane as well in itself.

[KevShep]

Reap_ii wrote...

ending still sits way outside of ME thematically. it still just doesn't make sense.

This^. Ive used the IT as my headcanon in a way that does give it a literal ending.

[Fenrir__]

Neizd wrote...

I did forgive but I won't forget that we didn't get all the ending choices that should be in game. There is still a lack of Shepard going against all odds and still standing strong like in ME1 and ME2.

Extended cut and citadel dlc made the game better...but it still lacks some things to made it perfect for me.

You can do that actually, it's just a really, really crappy two minute ending that you get instead of something conclusive.

Actually if they wanted to make an interesting ME3 Canon ending I would say make the refusal ending cannon have some humans and other races somehow survive maybe on the run in a stealth ship. Fast forward 50,000 years and take on the reapers again. There you go BW I just gave you a giant reset button that can incorporate all of our choices as background canon and rape us all for another few hundred dollars of cash. sigh...

[soitgoes19]

I still hate the endings. The Extended Cut improves things, but I don't consider going from 'horrendous' to 'awful' to be a huge accomplishment. The foundation of the endgame is broken, no amount of extra scenes will fix it completely. I haven't played the Citadel DLC yet, and I probably never will. I considered buying it after reading some reviews, but I can't buy any DLC that doesn't change the ending. I finally psyched myself up enough to go through a second playthrough of ME3, the last thing I want is a fun DLC that makes the ending seem even more disappointing in comparison.

Modifié par soitgoes19, 15 mars 2013 - 09:07 .

[Fenrir__]

if your playing on a PC you can always get DLC and the Mass Effect Happy Ending Mod that should make you feel a lot better. I also have a strange felling that if ME becomes a trilogy of films like they are planning the mod ending is gonna be closest to the canon of the films ending which may lead us to get a redone ME3 ending in a rerelease of the trilogy to celebrate the third movie or early in the year before the 4th game is out.

You also gotta know they are making a movie to sell all of there damn N7 merchandies and keep it relevant.

Modifié par Fenrir__, 15 mars 2013 - 09:19 .

[Hexley UK]

PainCakesx wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

So the crucible somehow released enough nannites to cover a volume of millions if not hundreds of millions of cubic *light years* in volume (did the math, the galaxy is roughly 500,000,000, ly^3 in volume if assumed cylindrical with radius of 50,000 ly and thickness of 1,000 ly)? Not to mention that there are somehow enough to attach to every strand of DNA of every being in the galaxy (trillions per life form)? That's roughly one hextillion life strands of DNA that are to be affected - a number that is nearly impossible to comprehend.

I hate to say it, but there is not enough energy in the the entire universe for this to happen. It's pure space magic.

The "Green wave" is a transport mechanism (Much like the mass relay) the nano[pico?] tech is only deposited/assembled at suitable points.

EnvyTB075 wrote...
I'd actually like to know where this "nanites" thing came from, sounds like fanon to me

The cinematic showing something "wrapping" the molecules in a DNA helix, the elements move into place and form a matrix, at that scale they could be called nanites (or picites) as they are tech operating at that scale.

That said, no I'm still pissed off, the ending is still bad and badly implimented. I'm still mad as hell and I an highly unlikely to give Bioware/EA any more money.

I'm not sure the scale here is being adequately explained. There are in excess of 1 hextillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) strands of DNA that will need to be "wrapped." DNA chains have an average surface area of roughly 2.2 E -9 m^2. This means that the nannites would have to cover roughly 2.2 quadrillion square meters of area (2,200,000,000,000,000 m^2) of DNA strands, just to deal with all the advanced races that we know of in the game.

That completely ignores the other 99% of the galaxy. If one assumes that the rest of the galaxy contains on average an even distribution of life, then that number goes up by a factor of 100. And once one factors in every plant life form in the galaxy, the number goes up by even more (on Earth, there more plants than animals - it would likely go up by a LOT).

This assumes the nannites magically know exactly how and where all life forms are at all times so that the "green beam delivery system" doesn't need to create more than this. Considering we can't reliably even scan for the presence of life on a planet within 25-30 ly, a nannite capable of locating EVERY life form with pinpoint accuracy at any given time in the galaxy is absurd, even for Reaper tech.

And I still maintain that altering the molecular structure of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 strands of DNA (and this is a very low estimate, it could be thousands or even *millions* of times this number as this ignores plant life) would require an unthinkable amount of energy, given that would contain 100 hextillion * 3 billion base pairs (in human DNA) = 100 nonillion (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) different chemical reactions. 
A basic chemistry course will tell you that the energy needed to perform that many chemical reactions is ridiculous.

TL;DR

The crucible would have to alter roughly 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 DNA base pairs (rough estimate) for galactic scale Synthesis to work. Most of these reactions will be in the kJ/mol in energy, so we are talking in terms of trillions, quadrillions or even more joules in energy for all of these reactions to take place.

It would also have to cover an estimated area of 220,000,000,000,000,000 m^2 of area of DNA to change only animal life forms in the galaxy. Including microbial and plant life to this equation, and it could be even exponentially larger.

While I'm sure a lot of these assumptions aren't likely to be 100% true, it should give an idea as to the scale needed for Synthesis to work.Quite bluntly - harnessing this energy would be ludicrous. Even for the Reapers. Synthesis is pure, unadultered space magic.

So...much...win.....

[Rappit4]

The only ones that still hates the ending are the clise' likers whose favourite films are the romantic ones with those boooring happy endings.