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[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...

Oh, look, another Ash-hate thread. This is original...

Not all criticisms of her character are hatred. There are legitimate flaws there that certain of her fanbase seem to overlook by lumping all critics in with haters.

I've been hearing the same complaints for years:

Ash is a zealot (except, can anyone even tell what her religion even is, exactly?  She really doesn't mention it much)

Ash thinks aliens are like dogs (complete misinterpretation of her analogy)

Ash spouts poetry (Yeah?  And?)

Ash shot Wrex (only under specific circumstances you'd have to be a borderline FailShep to trigger)

Yes, she's a flawed character.  She's suspicious.  She's cynical.  She has self-esteem issues.  But those flaws make her interesting. 

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...

iakus wrote...
Oh, look, another Ash-hate thread. This is original...

Not all criticisms of her character are hatred. There are legitimate flaws there that certain of her fanbase seem to overlook by lumping all critics in with haters.

They don't overlook it, they understand these flaws and to some extend appreciate them.

Unlike many of the other ME characters (often flat-out or borderline caricatures) Ashley has signs of being written as an actual person instead of a generic badass sidekick whose only purpose is to ride the PC's coat tails and receive praise for it.

Her ME1 incarnatation is probably the best written character the trilogy has to offer. 

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mars 2013 - 05:51 .

[Xilizhra]

I've been hearing the same complaints for years:

Ash is a zealot (except, can anyone even tell what her religion even is, exactly? She really doesn't mention it much)

Ash thinks aliens are like dogs (complete misinterpretation of her analogy)

Ash spouts poetry (Yeah? And?)

Ash shot Wrex (only under specific circumstances you'd have to be a borderline FailShep to trigger)

Yes, she's a flawed character. She's suspicious. She's cynical. She has self-esteem issues. But those flaws make her interesting.

I haven't used any of those allegedly overused complaints. I do believe that she's xenophobic ("bug-eyed monsters," "at least she looks like a woman," "I'm no fan of aliens," and that's not even counting the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line that supposedly doesn't count because it allegedly didn't trigger properly; perhaps it revealed more truth about her character this way), her religion is poorly thought-out from what I can tell (though this is admittedly quite common), the analogy was blandly obvious crap that didn't even need to be said unless it was a smokescreen serving her "totally not speciesist u guise" attitude, and the mission is now a Council one and not an Alliance one, so security issues would be the Council's prerogative to deal with.
I'm not saying that Ashley is a bad character, but I am saying that she's far from angelic.

Unlike many of the other ME characters (often flat-out or borderline caricatures) Ashley has signs of being written as an actual person instead of a generic badass sidekick whose only purpose is to ride the PC's coat tails and receive praise them for it.

The other problem being people like this who try to praise Ashley by attacking others. And no, I don't see anyone as more of a bland caricature than Ashley. I don't see any of them as bland characters. But I don't see her ME1 incarnation being the best written by any means either.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
I haven't used any of those allegedly overused complaints. I do believe that she's xenophobic ("bug-eyed monsters," "at least she looks like a woman," "I'm no fan of aliens," and that's not even counting the "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" line that supposedly doesn't count because it allegedly didn't trigger properly; perhaps it revealed more truth about her character this way), her religion is poorly thought-out from what I can tell (though this is admittedly quite common), the analogy was blandly obvious crap that didn't even need to be said unless it was a smokescreen serving her "totally not speciesist u guise" attitude, and the mission is now a Council one and not an Alliance one, so security issues would be the Council's prerogative to deal with.
I'm not saying that Ashley is a bad character, but I am saying that she's far from angelic.

You haven't.  Many others have.  The only times I've seen her use terms like those described is when shes making catty comments about Liara to maleShep (self-esteem issues, remember)  I also recall when she recommends to Shepard to go and comfort Liara after Benezia's death "She just lost her mom.  That has to hurt"  She's a bit more complicated than all that.

And yes the "aliens from the animals thing doesn't trigger properly.  She's supposed to be referring to Keepers.

Not going to comment on the religion, as it's so vaguely defined (likey deliberately) to avoid offending people.  So much for that idea 

The analogy should have been obvious.  But apparantly few people can comprehend the idea that alien civilizations might manipulate humanity to serve their own ends, rather than great humans with open arms or attempt to genocide humanity.  It's meant to illustrate her not unjustified beliefs that humanity should be able to stand alone if need be, and not become dependant on the rest of the Council.

I'm not saying Ash is an angel either.  She's a human.  A flawed human.  Angels are boring.  So are demons.  She's neither.

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unlike many of the other ME characters (often flat-out or borderline caricatures) Ashley has signs of being written as an actual person instead of a generic badass sidekick whose only purpose is to ride the PC's coat tails and receive praise them for it.

The other problem being people like this who try to praise Ashley by attacking others. And no, I don't see anyone as more of a bland caricature than Ashley. I don't see any of them as bland characters. But I don't see her ME1 incarnation being the best written by any means either.

Who am I attacking?

Other characters? Well, of course I am. Isn't that the point of this thread?

Ashley makes perfect sense in the world. She represents a mindset we are told is common for humans. It's unpleasant to hear her call aliens bug-eyed monsters or her her "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line. It is supposed to be. But she's not without redeeming qualities.

That's unlike other characters whose flaws we are supposed to find appealing and too badass to care. Like Jack's negative traits that are handwaved almost completely. Or Garrus' or Wrex' or Thane's or Liara's or Tali's or ... or ... or.

Eventually Ash's was changed and those unique traits removed and it hurt her character.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mars 2013 - 04:25 .

[Adoramei]

I knew a girl who told me to go back to China in high school, and she had a friend who was half-black. Does that make her not racist? It does not. Honestly, I feel like they made the Tali-Ashley references only to try and keep her from being too 100% one-way. (And besides, choosing to be "okay" with one race and not the other means that she is being discriminatory. It IS racism. It is harder for some people to see when being a target minority isn't a part of their upbringing.) Yes, I understand that she wants to maintain humanity's best interests, and that might come close to being tolerable if she didn't make the random comments on race as well. Like Megaton_Hope mentioned, there are several instances where she makes fun of them based on race and not nationality. She compares her thoughts to how she perceives the Council's thoughts to essentially say, "They think this way, so if you think about it, it's okay for me to think this way too."

I've heard that argument so many times from racists. "I hate them only because they hate us." Or, "Do you think they wouldn't do the same?" The argument is purely projection and deflection of guilt. YOU are responsible for your own actions, your own words. Not to mention the over-explanation of her "distrust", which I realise was likely Bioware's way of trying to make the discriminatory pattern less unlikeable. However, playing in-character and hearing the rambling "reasons", I feel like my Shepard would be hearing excuses for racism that I would hear in the same situation. Yes, it is all written, and the characters are fictional, but the interpretation remains true to my personal experience.

Also, being irritated with hearing constant religious reference is not bigotry. I personally feel as if religion is a very personal decision, and I respect their devotional choices. However, that goes both ways. I don't condemn them for choosing what they believe in. In the context of a conversation, it is appropriate to steer your path according to the preferences of both parties. If someone wants to discuss religion from an objective standpoint, I'm there. To have someone berate you with their beliefs in subjective reverence with no regard to your own, however, I have to perceive as.. rude. To put it lightly. It's the difference between respecting anothers' beliefs and intruding on another individual with your own. Repeatedly.

Again, as Megaton_Hope and Xilizhra mentioned, it is not the religious aspect that makes them stupid. (Although the big, stupid jellyfish reference was an attempt at humour, I honestly feel just as annoyed with the Ashley/Leliana references as NPC's do with the Hanar.) It's the stupid plus the blatant religious references.

But this is the point of making diverse characters. Some of them will grate on your nerves, but for others, they are exactly what they want in their party. The developers did their job by inciting emotional responses from the players. This is natural, and this is exactly what they were trying to accomplish. Video games are here for immersion. It's only natural that we lose ourselves in the characters in a RPG, where our choices and personalities can affect how our character interacts with the in-game universe.

To suggest that I should seek therapy based on the fact that I am human and have a response to emotional stimuli seems a bit far-fetched to me. Now, had I been trivially condemning another actual human being based on one facet of their personality, that would be another story entirely. Ashley will never go beyond my character telling her to, "Stop right there" with a programmed response.

[Xilizhra]

You haven't. Many others have. The only times I've seen her use terms like those described is when shes making catty comments about Liara to maleShep (self-esteem issues, remember) I also recall when she recommends to Shepard to go and comfort Liara after Benezia's death "She just lost her mom. That has to hurt" She's a bit more complicated than all that.

Xenophobia does not preclude complications. Certainly she's not simplistic or fanatical about it, but it's undeniably there.

The analogy should have been obvious. But apparantly few people can comprehend the idea that alien civilizations might manipulate humanity to serve their own ends, rather than great humans with open arms or attempt to genocide humanity. It's meant to illustrate her not unjustified beliefs that humanity should be able to stand alone if need be, and not become dependant on the rest of the Council.

Then humanity can become like the batarians, which surely worked out for them. Either we advance within the Council and play by the Council's rules, or we can go it alone entirely and not interact significantly with the rest of the galaxy. Which is preferable?

Ashley makes perfect sense in the world. She represents a mindset we are told is common for humans. It's unpleasant to hear her call aliens bug-eyed monsters or her her "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line. It is supposed to be. But she's not without redeeming qualities.

She has a use, but it's not a quality I like or appreciate.

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley makes perfect sense in the world. She represents a mindset we are told is common for humans. It's unpleasant to hear her call aliens bug-eyed monsters or her her "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line. It is supposed to be. But she's not without redeeming qualities.

She has a use, but it's not a quality I like or appreciate.

Having a use is a good thing for a character.

If their only use is being your a inoffensive sidekick then that charcater has a problem.

You might want to note that the universe got streamlined pretty quickly and humanity's status became a non-issue because people didn't appreciate a more complex setting. Much easier if everyone gets along and is best friends.

Modifié par klarabella, 18 mars 2013 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

klarabella wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley makes perfect sense in the world. She represents a mindset we are told is common for humans. It's unpleasant to hear her call aliens bug-eyed monsters or her her "can't tell the aliens from the animals" line. It is supposed to be. But she's not without redeeming qualities.

She has a use, but it's not a quality I like or appreciate.

Having a use is a good thing for a character. 

If their only use is being your a inoffensive sidekick then that charcater has a problem.

None of my squadmates are wholly inoffensive (except Liara, but she's not just a sidekick).

[TheRealJayDee]

klarabella wrote...

Unlike many of the other ME characters (often flat-out or borderline caricatures) Ashley has signs of being written as an actual person instead of a generic badass sidekick whose only purpose is to ride the PC's coat tails and receive praise them for it.

Her ME1 incarnatation is probably the best written character the trilogy has to offer. 

iakus wrote...

I'm not saying Ash is an angel either.  She's a human.  A flawed human.  Angels are boring.  So are demons.  She's neither.

Exactly!

[Adoramei]

The way I play my Shepards (all Paragon- some are slightly mixed but still mostly Paragon) is the way I feel that I would respond, the character being a conduit for the player's personality. I don't think I'd be able to play a character that overlooked what I would perceive as racism/xenophobia. Pride is one thing, prejudice is another. It's not an acceptable character flaw in my book for my own games. However, there are things that I would overlook or choose to discuss with my companions that some others might find unacceptable.

How one chooses their squadmates is a personal choice. It is nice that they had a variety of characters. I honestly haven't found any of them to be bland or in need of intense revision. Just as it's okay to like a character, it's also okay to dislike them.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Xenophobia does not preclude complications. Certainly she's not simplistic or fanatical about it, but it's undeniably there.

And to my mind she doens't treat aliens any differently than she treats people.  She doesn't trust people who haveagenda's that aren't in humanity's best interest.  I think xenophobia is the wrong term for her.  "nationalist" is likely more accurate. She doesn't trust aliens "because alien"  She doesn't trust him because they answer to the Turian Hierarchy.  Or the Council of Matriarchs.  Or the Dalatress.  Or the Batarian Hegemony.  Their agendas and interests are not necessarilly in line with that of the Systems Alliance. 

Heck she doesn't trust some humans for the same reason!  She never trusted Udina in ME1, seeing him as a self-serving politician.  Or, well, anyone on Noveria, really.

Then humanity can become like the batarians, which surely worked out for them. Either we advance within the Council and play by the Council's rules, or we can go it alone entirely and not interact significantly with the rest of the galaxy. Which is preferable?

You can disagree with her assessment.  Kaidan certainly does (and for the record, I like Kaidan too)  It's simply a way of thinking, not necessarilly right or wrong.  Her exact words are "I'm not opposed to having allies.  I just don't think we should count on them staying allies" with the bear and dog analogy (supposedly) illustrating her way of thinking. 

[Xilizhra]

And to my mind she doens't treat aliens any differently than she treats people.

Lulz.

She doesn't trust people who haveagenda's that aren't in humanity's best interest. I think xenophobia is the wrong term for her. "nationalist" is likely more accurate. She doesn't trust aliens "because alien" She doesn't trust him because they answer to the Turian Hierarchy. Or the Council of Matriarchs. Or the Dalatress. Or the Batarian Hegemony. Their agendas and interests are not necessarilly in line with that of the Systems Alliance.

She distrusts them for both reasons. Nationalist, yes, but with a xenophobic tinge to it, as can be seen in the species-based sentiments that slip out every so often. She's not Terra Firma per se, but is more like them than anyone else on the ship, which I think she's insecure about.

You can disagree with her assessment. Kaidan certainly does (and for the record, I like Kaidan too) It's simply a way of thinking, not necessarilly right or wrong. Her exact words are "I'm not opposed to having allies. I just don't think we should count on them staying allies" with the bear and dog analogy (supposedly) illustrating her way of thinking.

That was an absolutely terrible analogy, by the way. Who makes an analogy about humans, using humans, when the human on one side of the analogy isn't supposed to be representing humans on the other side? How can you blame so many for being confused? In any case... it's a good thing we did count on them as allies, otherwise we'd have been completely screwed. Bringing everyone together and providing counterexamples to Ashley's point is sort of the point of the game as a whole.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

[And to my mind she doens't treat aliens any differently than she treats people.

Lulz.

  Yeah my bad  Intended to type "any other people" as in, humans or aliens, she treats them pretty much the same. 

She distrusts them for both reasons. Nationalist, yes, but with a xenophobic tinge to it, as can be seen in the species-based sentiments that slip out every so often. She's not Terra Firma per se, but is more like them than anyone else on the ship, which I think she's insecure about.

Have you seen her at the Terra Firma rally?  She rips them a new one!  "Not Terra Firma per se" indeed!

What species, based sentiment do you mean?  Her hope that Tali's actions will cause quarians to be viewed in a better light?  Her volunteering to fight alongside Captain Kirahe in a mission guaranteed to have heavy casualties?  Her urging Shepard to comfort Liara after her mother's death? 

Any "alien-based insults" that slip out seem rooted entirely in either 1) seeing Liara as a potential romantic rival for maleShep (Ash, being insecure lets out some catty remarks, especially if Shepard strings them both along) or 2) the Council itself, which she is already on record as not trusting to have Earth's best interests at heart

That was an absolutely terrible analogy, by the way. Who makes an analogy about humans, using humans, when the human on one side of the analogy isn't supposed to be representing humans on the other side? How can you blame so many for being confused? In any case... it's a good thing we did count on them as allies, otherwise we'd have been completely screwed. Bringing everyone together and providing counterexamples to Ashley's point is sort of the point of the game as a whole.

Actually, "human" was never part of the analogy.  She says "if you are fighting a bear".  Just sayin'

And it wasn't counting on allies that brought them together.  They were all perfectly willing to fight seperately until they were all drowning in Reapers.  Shepard dragged them (in some cases kicking and screaming) together to cooperate.  Shepard had to kill a bunch of bears him/herself to unite the galaxy.  Otherwise, yeah everyone was screwed.  And Ashley would have been proven right.

Modifié par iakus, 18 mars 2013 - 06:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Have you seen her at the Terra Firma rally? She rips them a new one! "Not Terra Firma per se" indeed!

Based largely on the insecurity you mentioned, I suspect, at least for a reason as to why her reaction was that strong.

Any "alien-based insults" that slip out seem rooted entirely in either 1) seeing Liara as a potential romantic rival for maleShep (Ash, being insecure lets out some catty remarks, especially if Shepard strings them both along) or 2) the Council itself, which she is already on record as not trusting to have Earth's best interests at heart

You have no way of getting around "I'm no fan of aliens." And if she didn't see nonhumans as problematic, she wouldn't have made any comments of that nature at all. Like racism, it doesn't have to be overt or even necessarily conscious, but it can still exist, and Ashley definitely has it.

And it wasn't counting on allies that brought them together. They were all perfectly willing to fight seperately until they were all drowning in Reapers. Shepard dragged them (in some cases kicking and screaming) together to cooperate. Shepard had to kill a bunch of bears him/herself to unite the galaxy. Otherwise, yeah everyone was screwed. And Ashley would have been proven right.

Yes, if things had gone differently, someone might have been right... of course, it was the following of philosophies like Ashley's from all races that would have screwed the galaxy over, whereas those more like Kaidan's and Paragon Shepard's are what would ultimately save it.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

You have no way of getting around "I'm no fan of aliens." And if she didn't see nonhumans as problematic, she wouldn't have made any comments of that nature at all. Like racism, it doesn't have to be overt or even necessarily conscious, but it can still exist, and Ashley definitely has it.

I'm no fan of cats.  But I like them well enough.  I just like dogs more.  Does that make me a felinophobe (is that a word?)

She looks out for humanity.  that's her job.  But that doesn't mean she cares fro Cerberus or their methods.  that's all that phrase meant

Yes, if things had gone differently, someone might have been right... of course, it was the following of philosophies like Ashley's from all races that would have screwed the galaxy over, whereas those more like Kaidan's and Paragon Shepard's are what would ultimately save it.

And Ashley's point is that this point of view is far more prevalent. Not that it's the right course of action.

[Xilizhra]

I'm no fan of cats. But I like them well enough. I just like dogs more. Does that make me a felinophobe (is that a word?)

Ailurophobe, IIRC. Anyway, the colloquialism in question means "I don't really like."

She looks out for humanity. that's her job. But that doesn't mean she cares fro Cerberus or their methods. that's all that phrase meant

One hopes she drops that after becoming a Spectre.

And Ashley's point is that this point of view is far more prevalent. Not that it's the right course of action.

Then why not give advice on overcoming it.

[DaveT]

Interesting. Kaiden has always died on Virmire for me. It's kind of amusing when Shepherd says something about missing Kaiden toward the start of ME3, cause I always think "Why would you miss him? You've barely spoken to him."

I guess I should let him live sometime to see what says. Ironically, he was always one of the characters I would bring with me in ME1, because I could get his hacking/electronics skills up to use for getting those crates opened. But once we get to Virmire, I always choose to let the girl live, whether I'm playing male or femshep.

I did find the Ashley dialog in ME3 to be a little weak. Given that she was the longest running companion in the whole series, it seemed like there should be more dialog with her on that observation deck. Instead Garrus and Tali seemed to be the real "long time buddies". Not even a single "remember carrying your ass back to the ship after Eden Prime?" during the party.

I've never had her as an LI, I should try that to see if there is much of a difference.

[zakdillon]

Never liked Kaiden. Found him boring. I like characters who mature and develop over time. Although I have not explored EVERY option with Ashley, in my games she always goes from a hot-headed idiot who is blinded by feelings she doesn't really understand, to being an independent person. Even more independent than anyone else in the series. I like how she reacts on Horizon. I like her distrust in ME3. Shepard would have to win me back over, too. By the end of the game, she has the most character development, IMO. That makes her my favorite character in the series.

[Adoramei]

DaveT wrote...

Interesting. Kaiden has always died on Virmire for me. It's kind of amusing when Shepherd says something about missing Kaiden toward the start of ME3, cause I always think "Why would you miss him? You've barely spoken to him."

I feel the exact same way, except for Ashley. In fact, my characters tend to be kind of aggressive toward her and her views. Any of my War Hero origin characters usually jump down her throat for leaving her squad behind to die, even though I as the player know that she wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. Especially the Colonist-War Heroes, who lost everything, then worked to redeem themselves (in their own eyes).

The sole survivors tend to be more sympathetic, until the alien talk. Though, we'll see what happens when I get to my Earthborn, military-minded character. If I ever get there. That's the last one I'll ever want to make, if I even do. Not sure I can get completely into the mindset for that one.

I mean, I understand why they want us to say, "Well.. I feel bad for having to sacrifice a member of the team. That was a life we just lost." But there's more reaction to the Virmire death in 3 than there is in 1 in my eyes. I think that they auto-chatted Shepard's emotions a bit too much in 3. I could have done without the somber, "Yeah.. we did." in response to the hospital scene's, "We survived ___'s death together."

And during one of the nightmare scenes where Liara checks in on you, the Paragon choice is, "I was dreaming about ___." ? Yeah, I broke the full Paragon for that. There was no way in heck my character was thinking about a grunt that she didn't have much of an emotional connection with, who directly offended her core belief system. She would have sooner thought about Jenkins or felt responsible for anyone- ANYONE else lost along the way.

[DaveT]

Adoramei wrote...

She would have sooner thought about Jenkins or felt responsible for anyone- ANYONE else lost along the way.

Now THERE is someone I miss a lot more than Kaiden.  We need a Jenkins memorial as part of the Citadel DLC.

I remember my first time playing, I spent time setting up Jenkins and deciding on where to put points into his character, just to have him killed in the first 5 minutes.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ailurophobe, IIRC. Anyway, the colloquialism in question means "I don't really like."

Or simply "I fall somewhere between a xenophile and Cerberus"

One hopes she drops that after becoming a Spectre.

Sadly, we don't know, because she pretty much goes mute after the Citadel coup.  Perhaps in a misguided attempt to avoid offending people's sensibilities.

Of course, if Saren can sy "You humans need to learn your place" in front of the Council, a sense of "some people are more equal than others" is permissible. 

Then why not give advice on overcoming it.

Now that you mention it...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-ck8bTdSvg 

Sadly you have to be romancing her to get that option.

And again, the COuncil followed the "bear and the dog" mentality as well.  A lot of people have to overcome that way of thinking.  Not just one human soldier.

[Xilizhra]

Or simply "I fall somewhere between a xenophile and Cerberus"

No, that's not really what it means.

Sadly, we don't know, because she pretty much goes mute after the Citadel coup. Perhaps in a misguided attempt to avoid offending people's sensibilities.

Of course, if Saren can sy "You humans need to learn your place" in front of the Council, a sense of "some people are more equal than others" is permissible.

Do you really want to use Saren as a supposedly good example?

And again, the COuncil followed the "bear and the dog" mentality as well. A lot of people have to overcome that way of thinking. Not just one human soldier.

Perhaps, but just because others have to doesn't mean that I'll let her off the hook.

[MtOMajorCat0311]

Ashley annoys me, even as a LI. Yes, developing her character in ME1 made her slightly less annoying, but I still grind my teeth every time she recites poetry with all the emotion of a rock. By ME3 I definitely prefer Kaidan, as most of my characters have a biotic component and I like things to go boom - so he is definitely more versatile and can adapt to changing situations for maximum effect. As a side note - Ashley's face always bothered me - something is just wrong there (can't/won't put my finger on it). So, the same face in ME3 with long hair slapped on just didn't do anything for me......

That said, both of their ME3 dialogues are lacking, though I think Ashley wins the most boring prize.