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[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

CptData wrote...

Saberchic wrote...

Kaidan. No contest.

I will say that I thought it was amusing that people finally started giving Kaidan his due after ME3 because Ashley kept harping on their Sheps about Cerberus. To see so many people turn on her and say they will always leave her on Virmire now because she was being a witch was funny to me.

The fun steems from the fact those people always disliked both characters. Those guys always told "Kaidan is boring and whiny" and "Ashley is a racist" - but they saved her since they hated hearing Carth's voice...
So it was a decision between two evils for those guys. And since "no-redeeming-features-mirandafied-Ash" is even more anoying than "whiny-Carth-Kaidan" ... figures.

Well, at least that's my idea of those guys who swapped one for another VS.

I don't find it "fun" as such, but Ashley seems to be missing too much content and I'd like to try Kaidan out.

Ash only makes sense as LI. That's one of those few points on the "plus list" for Ash - if you romance her from ME1 without leaving her in ME2, you get a pretty much complete romance. However, ME1!Ash had a romance that was based on friendship and comradeship while ME3 lacks both components - and that's bad.

Overall, ME3!writer of Ash simply had no idea what to do with her. Once she had her role done (Mars, Udina Coup), she's just another squadmate you can use for combat. But she doesn't add anything to the plot anymore. However, that's not an issue Ash suffers alone. It's basically an issue for most characters with exception those who can't die 'cept in the very end. It's just most visible in case of Ashley since she doesn't even interact with the crew and has the least lines in missions - therefore she feels somewhat lacking.

If I could change anything in ME3, Ash is still not THE top priority. There's still a bad plot after the end of the Quarian-Geth-War. There are still bad endings. And several other issues as well. However, in the character development field, out of the romance options and friendly content, she's pretty much priority #1 - same place as the other four LIs from ME2.

[Iakus]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Or simply "I fall somewhere between a xenophile and Cerberus"[/quote]
No, that's not really what it means. [/quote]

::shrug::  I can't control how you interpret it

[quote]
Of course, if Saren can sy "You humans need to learn your place" in front of the Council, a sense of "some people are more equal than others" is permissible.[/quote]
Do you really want to use Saren as a supposedly good example?[/quote]

No, I use Saren as an example of what Spectres apparantly can and cannot think.  Ashley's xenonationalism would not likely raise concerns.

[quote]
[quote]And again, the COuncil followed the "bear and the dog" mentality as well. A lot of people have to overcome that way of thinking. Not just one human soldier.[/quote]
Perhaps, but just because others have to doesn't mean that I'll let her off the hook.[/quote]

But can you at least give her credit for correctly assessing how others think?

Modifié par iakus, 19 mars 2013 - 12:24 .

[Xilizhra]

No, I use Saren as an example of what Spectres apparantly can and cannot think. Ashley's xenonationalism would not likely raise concerns.

I'm speaking of my own standards for how a Spectre should be.

But can you at least give her credit for correctly assessing how others think?

It's not as though it was some great achievement to say "nations are primarily concerned with their own citizens." I'd say that Kaidan's realizations about nonhumans took rather more work to get to.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, I use Saren as an example of what Spectres apparantly can and cannot think. Ashley's xenonationalism would not likely raise concerns.

I'm speaking of my own standards for how a Spectre should be.

Fair enough

But can you at least give her credit for correctly assessing how others think?

It's not as though it was some great achievement to say "nations are primarily concerned with their own citizens." I'd say that Kaidan's realizations about nonhumans took rather more work to get to.

You'd think so.  But that's not the impression I get when people talk about her views.

[Iakus]

CptData wrote...

Overall, ME3!writer of Ash simply had no idea what to do with her. Once she had her role done (Mars, Udina Coup), she's just another squadmate you can use for combat. But she doesn't add anything to the plot anymore. However, that's not an issue Ash suffers alone. It's basically an issue for most characters with exception those who can't die 'cept in the very end. It's just most visible in case of Ashley since she doesn't even interact with the crew and has the least lines in missions - therefore she feels somewhat lacking.

Well,
When you can't talk about her views on aliens because people complain she's a racist
You can't talk about her religion because people complain she's a zealot
You can't talk about poetry because reasons
You can't talk about politics because ::insert Godwinization here::

What's left besides her family and getting hammered?

[Adoramei]

iakus wrote...

CptData wrote...

Overall, ME3!writer of Ash simply had no idea what to do with her. Once she had her role done (Mars, Udina Coup), she's just another squadmate you can use for combat. But she doesn't add anything to the plot anymore. However, that's not an issue Ash suffers alone. It's basically an issue for most characters with exception those who can't die 'cept in the very end. It's just most visible in case of Ashley since she doesn't even interact with the crew and has the least lines in missions - therefore she feels somewhat lacking.

Well,
When you can't talk about her views on aliens because people complain she's a racist
You can't talk about her religion because people complain she's a zealot
You can't talk about poetry because reasons
You can't talk about politics because ::insert Godwinization here::

What's left besides her family and getting hammered?

They can talk about it just fine. If the person likes the character, they will pick her to survive in their game. If they don't like her, they don't have to talk to her. They'll likely kill her in the coup. I don't like her and her views, and that's why she dies on Virmire every time for me. She does grow over time, but my characters won't know anything about it since she's always going to be dead.

There's nothing wrong with outright disliking her. We're not forced to have her in the majority of the series. Their dumbing her down is the fault of bad writing.

[Xilizhra]

You'd think so. But that's not the impression I get when people talk about her views.

Because she was describing it as an alien problem, and using a terribly phrased analogy.

Also, combining religion with any sort of xenophobia will immediately trigger understandable red flags with many people. Javik was hugely xenophobic, and Thane highly religious, but they didn't have both in a lethal combination.

[Shad Croly]

Kaiden, but it's not really a decision, since I don't actually have a finished play through where Ashley survives...

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

You'd think so. But that's not the impression I get when people talk about her views.

Because she was describing it as an alien problem, and using a terribly phrased analogy.

She was describing it as a universal problem.  An survival instinct we all have.  Heck she even called it "human nature so humanity certainly wasn't off the hook.

Also, combining religion with any sort of xenophobia will immediately trigger understandable red flags with many people. Javik was hugely xenophobic, and Thane highly religious, but they didn't have both in a lethal combination.

"Understandable red flags"?  That's your problem, sorry.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Well I used to save Ash on Virmire. Now Kaidan is the man.

I still intend one play for a vid with Ash in ME3 for LOLz.

[Gilthanis]

From ME to ME3, it will always be Kaidan.

[Allison_Lightning]

Kaidan but I loved Ashley as well and unfortunately you can't make Kirrahe take Liara. They both have their perks and ultimately Kaidan comes down to as an LI and a biotic (as well as a few character traits). To be truthful, Ashley's suspicions and issues in ME2/3 never bothered me- and I understand where she comes from.

To top it off really with my 'wish I could leave Liara on Virmire' was that she was a writer's darling in an RPG game where you should have been able to lose her in an earlier game. She was pretty much the only character from the first two games who was scripted to survive unless you had a low EMS run at the beam, and that's near the end of the third game. I liked Kaidan and Ashley and wanted to save them both.

Modifié par Allison_Lightning, 19 mars 2013 - 03:32 .

[Ryoten]

Ashley

[Raanz]

Ashley.

[Megaton_Hope]

klarabella wrote...

That's a reasonable question. They shouldn't have unrestricted access to the ship, of course.

Wrex is a random mercenary, spewing death threats against C-Sec officers who dare question him on the Citadel.
Garrus is a quitter who wants play hero.

None of them are needed on the Normandy. Read, unlike Liara and Tali whose presence is somewhat justified by their unique fields of expertise (Protheans, geth) Wrex and Garrus are just invited to go shoot at enemies, on a human prototype spaceship with a handpicked marine detail.

It's not hard to see it with Wrex, since he's a mercenary and, although the most level-headed Krogan in evidence, something of a loose cannon. Garrus, however, was building a case against Saren before we even came on the scene, and probably has a more complete profile on him than anyone but Captain Anderson (who has other duties now) or the Council (who may be covering up for Saren). He lacked evidence that he could present to the Council, but that doesn't mean he didn't know anything. His presence on the ship is a logical one; the only person who has a stronger claim is Liara, who is in something comparable to protective custody.

As far as "human prototype spaceship," it was co-designed by the Turian Hierarchy, as so lamented by Rear Admiral Mikhailovich and as you can point out to Khalisa al-Jilani. There are no technical secrets which the Turians could gain from spying on it, and no reason to suspect Garrus of working with any other group. It'd be like saying the Israeli military is going to steal the secrets to the American F-35 Lightning II.

Everybody on the ship could potentially intercept privileged communications, of course, probably without needing to range very far afield.

I would say that bringing Tali along and letting her hang around your engine core is probably the most ill-advised decision, because while she's something of a technical marvel, she's still basically a teenager. And there really are no such things as Geth experts, because hey've been isolated in the Perseus Veil developing independently for centuries.

[Iakus]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
It's not hard to see it with Wrex, since he's a mercenary and, although the most level-headed Krogan in evidence, something of a loose cannon. Garrus, however, was building a case against Saren before we even came on the scene, and probably has a more complete profile on him than anyone but Captain Anderson (who has other duties now) or the Council (who may be covering up for Saren). He lacked evidence that he could present to the Council, but that doesn't mean he didn't know anything. His presence on the ship is a logical one; the only person who has a stronger claim is Liara, who is in something comparable to protective custody.

The problem she had wasn't that they were on boad, but that they had complete access to all the ship's systems.

As far as "human prototype spaceship," it was co-designed by the Turian Hierarchy, as so lamented by Rear Admiral Mikhailovich and as you can point out to Khalisa al-Jilani. There are no technical secrets which the Turians could gain from spying on it, and no reason to suspect Garrus of working with any other group. It'd be like saying the Israeli military is going to steal the secrets to the American F-35 Lightning II.

I'm willing to bet most governments don't let their own civilians casually poke around thier cutting-edge warships.  Much less foreign nationals, even if they are of friendly nations

I would say that bringing Tali along and letting her hang around your engine core is probably the most ill-advised decision, because while she's something of a technical marvel, she's still basically a teenager. And there really are no such things as Geth experts, because hey've been isolated in the Perseus Veil developing independently for centuries.

Funny you should mention that..  Remember that quarian envoy ship?

This diplomatic frigate is like no quarian ship on record. Its hull is relatively low temperature and it appears to be venting heat in a manner similar to that of the Normandy when it comes out of stealth mode. How the quarians developed this high-tech vessel is unknown, but its hailing frequencies are open and welcoming messages are being tightbeamed to the Normandy. 

Tali, is there something you'd like to share with the rest of the class?  

[Juggle]

Always Ashley.

Is a shame that her original writer Chris L'etoile left. But I must say that even with attempts of new writers to leave Ashley overboard, she's still an interesting character. And her role in the Citadel is much-much funnier than Kaidan.

[Megaton_Hope]

A minor point, but before Mass Effect 2, there's also not really anywhere to restrict their access IN. The ship kind of lacks things like quarters and messhalls. That's why everybody's standing around in a cargo bay or the engine room.

Not even a brig, that I can see.

As far as militaries letting civilians poke around their cutting-edge warships, well...fair point, but Ashley only expressed this about Garrus and Wrex specifically. Much the same way that Mikhailovitch does, when he brings up the issue of your alien crew members. (With the most indignation over the TURIAN. Because they almost destroyed humanity that time.)

[Xilizhra]

Funny you should mention that.. Remember that quarian envoy ship?

This diplomatic frigate is like no quarian ship on record. Its hull is relatively low temperature and it appears to be venting heat in a manner similar to that of the Normandy when it comes out of stealth mode. How the quarians developed this high-tech vessel is unknown, but its hailing frequencies are open and welcoming messages are being tightbeamed to the Normandy.

Tali, is there something you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

Well, certainly there's no moral flaw in stealing tech from a Cerberus ship, which is what the Normandy was in ME2.

[ghost9191]

Ashely

[nos_astra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Funny you should mention that.. Remember that quarian envoy ship?

This diplomatic frigate is like no quarian ship on record. Its hull is relatively low temperature and it appears to be venting heat in a manner similar to that of the Normandy when it comes out of stealth mode. How the quarians developed this high-tech vessel is unknown, but its hailing frequencies are open and welcoming messages are being tightbeamed to the Normandy.

Tali, is there something you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

Well, certainly there's no moral flaw in stealing tech from a Cerberus ship, which is what the Normandy was in ME2.

I prefer to think Tali stole it from the SR-1.

It gives her cutesy, harmless character an edge that I really like. 

Modifié par klarabella, 19 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Funny you should mention that.. Remember that quarian envoy ship?

This diplomatic frigate is like no quarian ship on record. Its hull is relatively low temperature and it appears to be venting heat in a manner similar to that of the Normandy when it comes out of stealth mode. How the quarians developed this high-tech vessel is unknown, but its hailing frequencies are open and welcoming messages are being tightbeamed to the Normandy.

Tali, is there something you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

Well, certainly there's no moral flaw in stealing tech from a Cerberus ship, which is what the Normandy was in ME2.

. Uhhhh.  Stealing is still stealing.  It's still immoral.. If you care about that sort of thing.

[Steelcan]

Plus it was confirmed that the Salarians got the tech from Turians. Quarians could have gotten it that way.