550 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

I feel like the cut for the ME1 bi- options for Kaiden and Ashley were because of character reasons. The controversy angle seems a little weak. Bisexual romances had already been done in previous games with little controversy or no controversy long before ME1 was released. Heck, Jade Empire had bisexual options (for both sexes); so it's not like this was anything new to BioWare.

[Jorji Costava]

Generally, I save Kaidan, because (1) he's the ranking officer, (2) he's more useful, gameplay wise, in ME3. It kinda sucks knowing that the VS (Ashley especially) is going to be mostly thrown under the bus for the rest of the series; the best resolution available to Ashley's character arc is sacrificing herself on Virmire, proving that the Williams' aren't cowards after all.

 

Speaking of arcs, that's kinda my problem with Kaidan as a character: He doesn't seem to have one. Ashley has to deal with overcoming her family's reputation and her distrust of aliens; Garrus struggles with the familiar "Should I play by the rules or not?" question, and Wrex is dealing with his apathy and disappointment in his own species, and the emptiness that results from not having anything else to fill in those blanks. Kaidan by contrast, is dealing with . . . headaches? Maybe there's something I've missed here, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of potential for growth or development with the character.

 

Also, I just did a quick search on the topic of Kaidan's sexuality; apparently, Mark Meer did voiceover recordings for all of Kaidan's romance dialogue in ME1, and they can be unlocked with mods according to this. I've heard variously that this was simply a programming workaround, or that the bisexual romance option for Kaiden was cut due to limited time/resources, etc., so take that for what you will.

 

Anyways, I just don't see it as a big deal at all. I'm sure if it's really a retcon, since I'm not sure that making Kaidan non-romanceable in ME1 counts as definitively establishing for all time that he never has and never will be attracted to another man (did ME1 definitively establish for all time that Garrus and Tali have no interest in humans?). Even if it is a retcon, I don't see that as a huge problem. Retcons generally represent a tradeoff between in-universe consistency and other values, and like I've argued before, consistency counts less than a lot of the internet seems to think.

 

EDIT: Fixed grammar.

[God]

I think the primary issue is that his change to bisexuality (I will stay in the 'retcon' group) and thus his sexual identity comes off as cheap from the perspective of LGBT considerations. IMO, it seems to me that his change was a means to get points with the LGBT crowd. Which is a shame, since BW typically portrays them very well. It makes him come off as sort of illegitimate.

 

Granted, I don't know how or if others feel the way I do, but I know a lot of people weren't happy with the change.

[mopotter]

 Jade Empire even had a threesome.  Sadly only for the male but still.......    

 

Agree Imaginary Matter, they had done it many times so the idea they left it out because they were worried about controversy, isn't very strong.  

 

Now those who said they left it out because of time, that might be true and makes some sense.  But no matter what the reason was, they left it out and there was no real reason to put it in ME3 other than to appease the ones who  wanted to have Kaiden as an option.   

 

On topic - Kaiden was my favorite, Garrus a close 2nd and I liked Ash and Jack for my male Shepards.  So many great characters.

[Jorji Costava]

I think the primary issue is that his change to bisexuality (I will stay in the 'retcon' group) and thus his sexual identity comes off as cheap from the perspective of LGBT considerations. IMO, it seems to me that his change was a means to get points with the LGBT crowd. Which is a shame, since BW typically portrays them very well. It makes him come off as sort of illegitimate.

 

Granted, I don't know how or if others feel the way I do, but I know a lot of people weren't happy with the change.

 

 

Like you, I don't really know. It's possible that some LGBT players were actually relieved that Kaidan's sexual identity was not being treated as a huge deal, or as the thing that most defines him as a person. Normalization doesn't have to be the same thing as trivialization, after all. But being a cis straight dude, I probably shouldn't be telling LGBT players how they would or should feel about the change, so I'll just shut up now.

[God]

Eh, I try not too either. I just let my opinions and feelings on the matter known. Sometimes, being in the majority means everyone else is willing to attack you (I'm a CIS Straight male too).

[GalacticWolf5]

I don't see why it would be a retcon. It's not because he doesnt talk about it before or shows interest in MShep in ME1 that he's straight. He doesnt have to talk about it.

Also, a retcon would require him saying he was straight in ME1. There is nothing that says he's not bisexual in ME1 , therefore its not a retcon.

And if you absolutely want to go with the whole "he was straight before ME3" thing, let me tell you that sometimes people realize they're bisexual or gay later in their life. It's not out of the blue.

IMO, he was always bisexual. He just didnt show interest in MShep until ME3.

[katamuro]

I save Ash, not because I like her more but because her dialogue when boarding the geth dreadnaught if you choose her as LI in the first one and then go for Tali in the second and third one is golden, especially if you take both of them on the mission. Maybe I should do a Kaidan walkthrough.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Kaidan. Always Kaidan.

 

I did one, 3-full games, run with Ashley*, and it wasn't working for me at all. 

 

 

*And it was only last year, after many, many playthroughs of all three games.

[ComfortablyNumb]

I don't see why it would be a retcon. It's not because he doesnt talk about it before or shows interest in MShep in ME1 that he's straight. He doesnt have to talk about it.

Also, a retcon would require him saying he was straight in ME1. There is nothing that says he's not bisexual in ME1 , therefore its not a retcon.

And if you absolutely want to go with the whole "he was straight before ME3" thing, let me tell you that sometimes people realize they're bisexual or gay later in their life. It's not out of the blue.

IMO, he was always bisexual. He just didnt show interest in MShep until ME3.

 

And actually, if you have import from ME1, where m!Shep romanced Kaidan, there are some differences in how Shepard talks to / about Kaidan, especially early in the game. They are quite small, but they are there.

 

So in some way, devs did acknowledge their romance, even if we need a console to make it work  

[Milana]

Kaidan all the time.

 

Didnt find Ashley that interesting, and i dont like how she looks in ME3:( 

[Daemul]

Ash.

She's a beautiful, passionate and realistic character, who calls Shepard out on his BS on my behalf(Shepard is an idiot).

She also killed the frog for me, so I'm eternally in her debt.

Kaidan -

Nah, Kaidan isn't boring. He was just unfortunate not to be a hot girl, so he had to die.

[God]

i don't get how she calls Shepard out on his bullshit. My Shepard dishes it just as hard back at her and completely justifies himself.

 

I wouldn't say she's that realistic of a character. Honestly, I see her like I see Sarah Palmer in Halo. I really bad attempt to create a strong female character that falls flat on its face.

[katamuro]

All this talk makes me want to go and play ME1-3 with Kaidan. I might just do that.

[Jorji Costava]

i don't get how she calls Shepard out on his bullshit. My Shepard dishes it just as hard back at her and completely justifies himself.

 

I wouldn't say she's that realistic of a character. Honestly, I see her like I see Sarah Palmer in Halo. I really bad attempt to create a strong female character that falls flat on its face.

 

I actually think she's one of the most realistic characters in the game, especially in ME1. Her attitudes and actions are a plausible extrapolation of what a person with her background and history would be like; what else is there to being a realistic character? IIRC, humanity discovered aliens some 30 years ago in the ME timeline, meaning that a very large number of humans remember a time when aliens just weren't a part of their lives at all. It stands to reason that this would translate into lots of people being distrustful of them, and it makes sense to have a character like Ashley in order to explore these aspects of the universe. She's also given avenues for growth as a character (i.e. her distrust of aliens, family history, etc.), and these character arcs play into the larger ideas of the story (i.e. humanity's place in the galaxy). All things considered, that seems like solid writing IMO.

[Pasquale1234]

I feel like the cut for the ME1 bi- options for Kaiden and Ashley were because of character reasons. The controversy angle seems a little weak. Bisexual romances had already been done in previous games with little controversy or no controversy long before ME1 was released. Heck, Jade Empire had bisexual options (for both sexes); so it's not like this was anything new to BioWare.

It may very well have been done for character reasons. Shepard's character. Bioware was pretty clear about their intention to present male Shepard as straight - ergo, no reason to reveal Kaidan as bisexual at that time. They didn't seem to have the same issue with female Shepard, though, making Liara available from the start.

IIRC, Mass Effect was Bioware's first shooter. I can't help but wonder if the decision to promote straight male Shepard was related to the desire to appeal to a different target audience.

[dragonflight288]

Ditto to both of you. Really, the only reason to bring Ashley is if you are in a romance with her. And while she might be a decent soldier, there's someone who's much better, and much more qualified, and thus, much more capable.

 

I see a lot of people wanting to bring her along and help boost her career. My view on that? Being in the military myself, and being an officer (and in a position of authority where I see the subtleties of an issue like this that a lot of others won't see), while I do sympathize with her in that aspect, I'm not willing to compromise the mission for the sake of charity. I need a proven team up to the job, and is combat effective, not an unknown quantity soldier.

 

If I really was the CO of the Normandy in ME1, after arrival at the Citadel, I'd sign off on a transfer request and give her a recommendation for a special skills course/school/workshop so that she can have a chance to build up her career from there. I would not keep her on the team, nor would i assign her to an active and operational unit. I'm not going to assign a relatively inexperienced and over-ranked soldier to an active unit. That would be negligent of my duties and to the missions at large for those teams. 

 

Really, that's the best you could realistically do. She has no business being anywhere near the action until she has some veritable skills that truly make her standout. As it is, there are soldiers that are half her rank that have more skills, qualifications, and experience than her. It might suck for her personally, but then again, the military isn't in the business of making you feel good or giving you a chance if you haven't earned it (and very rightfully so).

 

Then of course, there is also my rather legendary disgust with her character... which more or less makes me want to see her fail.

 

Quick question. I understand where you're coming from, but, from your military perspective, what do you make of the conversation Shepard has with Ashley where he says her record is full of really high technical scores and crap postings, and she responds that her family history is the source of the crap postings?

 

I mean, we don't see her file and her technical skills, only her combat skills as part of the team and gameplay. So it may be possible we don't actually know the full range of her skillsets. Merely the ones that are useful to the mission and as a squad member. 

[God]

Quick question. I understand where you're coming from, but, from your military perspective, what do you make of the conversation Shepard has with Ashley where he says her record is full of really high technical scores and crap postings, and she responds that her family history is the source of the crap postings?

 

I mean, we don't see her file and her technical skills, only her combat skills as part of the team and gameplay. So it may be possible we don't actually know the full range of her skillsets. Merely the ones that are useful to the mission and as a squad member. 

 

My perspective on that is testing scores (Enlisted do periodically have to go through evaluations and such, like how much you know your job and its role in the military) are what is being discussed there, PT tests, Rifle Qualifications, and other technical skills that are more or less easily accessible to most Soldiers (such as getting a certification in changing a tire on an MRAP, handling CBRN material in a convoy, emergency combat care), smaller practical skills that aren't necessarily savvy to the mission. 

 

On the other hand, schools like Airborne, Air Assault, Special Forces, Ranger, Sniper, and OCS (And I'm talking about the 22nd Century equivalents here), training that require a bit of politics (you can't just enroll in a course for these, you have to be recommended and accepted first) are what she might be denied access to. Someone, somewhere has to approve her, and before they do, they're going to look at her background, send it up the chain, get a response from the cadre that runs the school, and that's where the buck stops, since her profile will likely be flagged as 'undesirable' and subsequently denied. 

 

Those schools are considered to be fairly prestigious (and likely still will be in the future) and any Soldier that has successfully completed the course will definitely be in line for better postings. And they will usually get them, as it's a waste to train someone and not utilize them in that manner. But the point is, these schools do have their own politics that are part of the system.

 

As I said, I would probably pull some leverage to get her an assignment to one of the schools and let her work her way up from there. If she can't, well, too bad, I did what I could have realistically done. I wouldn't keep her on the Normandy past the Citadel, except maybe as security personnel. She would not be rated for surface actions.

 

Her combat skillset isn't what I'd call impressive: Again, as I said, there's plenty of other people with the same skills she has, the same drive, and the same rank. And they all have much more qualifications and experience to make them be a much better fit for the mission.

 

Ashley, as far as I'm concerned, was the chick squadmate who happened to be used as a platform to look at other perspectives that are more reactionary to humanity's increased presence on the galactic stage.

[dragonflight288]

My perspective on that is testing scores (Enlisted do periodically have to go through evaluations and such, like how much you know your job and its role in the military) are what is being discussed there, PT tests, Rifle Qualifications, and other technical skills that are more or less easily accessible to most Soldiers (such as getting a certification in changing a tire on an MRAP, handling CBRN material in a convoy, emergency combat care), smaller practical skills that aren't necessarily savvy to the mission. 

 

On the other hand, schools like Airborne, Air Assault, Special Forces, Ranger, Sniper, and OCS (And I'm talking about the 22nd Century equivalents here), training that require a bit of politics (you can't just enroll in a course for these, you have to be recommended and accepted first) are what she might be denied access to. Someone, somewhere has to approve her, and before they do, they're going to look at her background, send it up the chain, get a response from the cadre that runs the school, and that's where the buck stops, since her profile will likely be flagged as 'undesirable' and subsequently denied. 

 

Those schools are considered to be fairly prestigious (and likely still will be in the future) and any Soldier that has successfully completed the course will definitely be in line for better postings. And they will usually get them, as it's a waste to train someone and not utilize them in that manner. But the point is, these schools do have their own politics that are part of the system.

 

As I said, I would probably pull some leverage to get her an assignment to one of the schools and let her work her way up from there. If she can't, well, too bad, I did what I could have realistically done. I wouldn't keep her on the Normandy past the Citadel, except maybe as security personnel. She would not be rated for surface actions.

 

Her combat skillset isn't what I'd call impressive: Again, as I said, there's plenty of other people with the same skills she has, the same drive, and the same rank. And they all have much more qualifications and experience to make them be a much better fit for the mission.

 

 

Got it. I didn't know about all that. 

[God]

Got it. I didn't know about all that. 

 

It's speculation on my part, combined with my own feelings on the matter.

 

I have an obviously much more informed view on these issues, but all that said, I'm speculating that these institutions (or there equivalents in the future) are in place and preventing her from advancing.

 

Now, if I waited any longer with Ashley after the Citadel, then I'd probably have her transferred back to a crap post with a stern counselling profile that would keep her from ever ascending past watching and washing the motor pool. 

 

That's what I wanted to do anyway. And I'd get away with it too. The military really does work on nepotism and cronyism, but I can also derail a career if I don't like a person, and be able to get away with it. I'm in (both in game and professionally) a position to do that. Now, I very highly doubt that I'd be that petty to do it in real life (and I do consider it unprofessional to a very high degree), but in-game? If I could, I'd have Ashley slapped back down to the armpit of a backwater and demoted two or three ranks with zero chance to ever promote. 

 

She'd never be higher than PFC. Ashley Williams, junior assistant to the assistant sanitation officer.

[dragonflight288]

It's speculation on my part, combined with my own feelings on the matter.

 

I have an obviously much more informed view on these issues, but all that said, I'm speculating that these institutions (or there equivalents in the future) are in place and preventing her from advancing.

 

Now, if I waited any longer with Ashley after the Citadel, then I'd probably have her transferred back to a crap post with a stern counselling profile that would keep her from ever ascending past watching and washing the motor pool. 

 

That's what I wanted to do anyway. And I'd get away with it too. The military really does work on nepotism and cronyism, but I can also derail a career if I don't like a person, and be able to get away with it. I'm in (both in game and professionally) a position to do that. Now, I very highly doubt that I'd be that petty to do it in real life (and I do consider it unprofessional to a very high degree), but in-game? If I could, I'd have Ashley slapped back down to the armpit of a backwater and demoted two or three ranks with zero chance to ever promote. 

 

She'd never be higher than PFC. Ashley Williams, junior assistant to the assistant sanitation officer.

 

Uh, right. 

 

With that said, since I've been away from the ME forums for quite some time, I get that you don't like Ashley. 

 

I usually save Kaiden myself, but I also had no real issues with Ash either, as far as being a well-written character. Didn't agree with her stance on aliens so much, but my Shepard says it well. When he wanted to get an opinion from the head, he'd talk to Kaiden, but if wanted to hear from the heart he'd talk to Ash. 

 

From a curiosity standpoint, what about her makes you dislike her so much?

[Kyzzer_X]

I never actually used Kaiden.  I killed him and his haircut in ME1 and never looked back...can't say I much like Ash either though.

[GalacticWolf5]

Why are so many people saying ''Kaiden''? It's Kaidan.

[Vazgen]

Why are so many people saying ''Kaiden''? It's Kaidan.

Because they don't care about him. I doubt you'll find many people who both misspell his name and save him in ME1

[Pasquale1234]

FWIW - this is the text from her entry in the wiki (don't know the original source)

Born on April 14th, 2158 on the colony world Sirona in the 61 Ursae Majoris system, Ashley Madeline Williams comes from a large family that includes a long line of Alliance soldiers.

Following her family's tradition, Ashley enlisted in the Alliance Navy as a marine after high school and was assigned to the Recruit Training Depot in Macapá, Brazil. During training, Chief Williams was certified proficient with the standard-issue M7 Lancer assault rifle and light to standard-weight combat hardsuits. She also completed certification in zero-gravity combat aboard the Rakesh Sharma Orbital Platform in Earth geosynchronous orbit. For Hostile Environment Assault Training, she was assigned to Fort Charles Upham on Titan, one of Saturn's moons, where she was awarded a commendation for her bold assault technique in a field exercise simulating an attack on turian point defense emplacements.

Drill Instructor Gunnery Chief Ellison noted her steadfast endurance and aggressive instincts, and promoted her to squad leader. Subsequently Ashley is promoted again to platoon guide after her effective tutelage of the less skilled members of her training unit. Her platoon had logged unanimous positive feedback on her leadership in a recent fitness review cycle, and fellow soldier Private Nirali Bhatia praised her focus on team-building exercises and "tough but fair" discipline.

Despite glowing performance reviews, Ashley is denied further opportunities for advancement. Having served on numerous groundside garrisons she has repeatedly requested a transfer to a shipboard posting, but each request had been denied, without explicit reasons.

Ashley's Military Vocational Code is B4 and her blood type is B-Positive. She had received genetic enhancements including in-utero vision correction (maternal predisposition for nearsightedness) and the Class-B Alliance Infantry Upgrade Package.


This is the text about Ashley from ME3's codex:

Lieutenant Commander Ashley Williams is a career military officer with the Systems Alliance. Born in 2158 to a military family, Williams enlisted directly out of high school, splitting time between Earth and hostile environment training on Titan. After earning numerous commendations early in her career, Williams became a platoon guide on Eden Prime, where she was the only member of her unit to survive the geth attack.

Williams then served as gunnery chief under Commander Shepard on the SSV Normandy and was promoted to lieutenant commander after the Battle of the Citadel. More recently, an Alliance tribunal called on Williams to testify about her experience with the Reapers.